Do you hold'em or fold'em??

The_Chopper

Hand 1 - Preflop:
Final table of a live MTT blinds 200/400 – I have about 20K as does villain.
Read on villain:
Hasn’t a clue how to play – complete calling station, haven’t seen him reraise all night apart from with AK.

Player raises to 1.5k, villain calls – I have AQ on the BB and make it 6k to play. First player folds – villain goes all in

My thoughts:
At this point were I am getting to big a price to call – but the fact he has only gone all in once with AK I can’t get out of my mind.

Do you hold’em or fold’em?

Hand 2 – The Flop:
Early stages of a live MTT blinds at 100/200 – I have about 8K and villain covers.
Read on villain:
He posts a lot of hand histories on boards. He has shown down KK,KK and AA only. Lately though he has started raising a little more but hasn’t shown down these hands. This is the 3rd time he’s raised my blind in 5 rounds. He obviously knows how to use his stack and this is my thinking when he raises here.

Villain makes it 650 from the button, SB folds I call with A3. At this point I think my A high is good – however if I reraise and he shoves I can’t call so I decide to take a flop.
Flop 882 with 2 hearts
I check – he bets 1k
I min raise to 2k – my thinking here is that if A high was good preflop it’s still good here and I wanted more information for as cheap as possible.
Villain asks me how much more I have and then announces all in before fumbling his chips into the pot.

My thoughts:
Initially I was just going to muck – then I thought hang on. Then I tried to put him on a hand that he could 3 bet me with all on that flop and I couldn’t come up with one due to the speed he had acted when going all in. In fact the only hand I thought I should be scared of was a flushdraw and I was still probably leading in the hand. Surely he’d flat call with AA KK here or an 8. He’d have to take longer than 5secs before shoving all in with 99 - QQ Earlier on villain went all in instantly with top set, confidently and 2 fisted with his chips, without asking for a chip count.
Additionally in a hand I had played with the villain earlier I had bet about 1/3 of my stack on the flop after raising preflop, he had asked for my chip count and then announced “You don’t have enough for me to bluff you off of it”.

Given all this – do you hold’em of fold’em.

Hand 3 – The Turn:
Final table of a live MTT blinds at 500/1000 and we’re playing 5 handed –I have about 55k and villain covers.
Read on villain: has been raising and reraising a lot with any Ace, any pair and any 2 broadway. He’s been calling quite light from the blinds and has either bet out or check raised when he likes the flop.
I’ve been very active and have shown down a mixture of good and bad hands.

I get K8o on the CO and make it 3K, villain calls 2k more from the BB.
Flop 225 villain checks – I bet 4K – villain calls.
Turn 10 villain checks – here’s where it gets interesting:
I go to bet 8k but as I push my arm forward 1 * 1k chip falls out of my hand. I ask the dealer for a ruling i.e. is the bet 1k or 8k. Villain shouts over the dealer saying the 8k is ok – it was clearly meant. He looks a little to excited if that makes any sense. Dealer declares it an 8k bet – then the villain moves all in……

My thoughts:
He’d have bet out or reraised with a 5 on the flop. He doesn’t have a 2. He doesn’t have an overpair. The only hand that I was loosing to in my head with J10, 10 9 etc, where he’d called me to bluff the turn and caught a 10.

WTF??? Hold’em or fold’em??

Silver-Tiger

1. Holdem
2. Foldem And I Dont Care What The Outcome Is
3. Exact Same As 2

The_Chopper

Silver-Tiger wrote:

2. Foldem And I Dont Care What The Outcome Is

Let me ask you this if you thought a guy had AK and you had QQ would you call all in preflop when you have a slight edge?

If yes - and if you read is that A high is leading - wouldn't getting your money in as a 70% favourite on the flop be a good move if you call?

HeeHawsCantona

Read a couple of books on poker and then reread your hands - how did you get yourself in these situations?

Silver-Tiger

Its a lot easier to put a guy on ak preflop and call with QQ than call a push with A high after the flop and after he has 3 bet you all in,
I'm sorry i just fold there

BobSloane

Would not agree with this thinking really. You reckon he prob has a flush draw? So he could well have the nut flush draw which would suggest that your A is outkicked. Of course he may not have the nutflush draw but a hand like say QT of hearts in which case he would have 15 outs and be a favourite. Your A high would not be a 70% favourite as you say. You are currently ahead of a stone cold bluff. And he could well be nervous cause he raised with 66 or 77 and he doesn't want to call and see a heart on the turn and / or he's afraid that you might have an 8 but he doesn't know what to do so he just shoves.
He's put you to a decision for all your chips and you have no hand/no draw.
It may be unorthodox but when I'm facing a bet for all my chips and I have no hand and no draw I usually fold.

If you are convinced button is raising light why not re-raise preflop and shove any flop. Not a genious line either but better than this imo. Also I don't see what the min-raise on the flop is really supposed to achieve. Whoop-di-do if he folds but if he calls then what? Check? Or if he moves-in then what? Call with A high?

Scouser in Dub

I hate pretty much everything in hand 2.

I really don't like calling raises with raggy aces if you think villain is stealing re-raise, I hate the check min raise and I hate the call, as has been said you could be getting bluffed with a better hand here

fold 3 and probably call 1

cardshark202

Is this a level? I mean you surely can't have played these hands. Or at least the one in macspower's thread where you minlead on several streets?

grey_abbey

Stop trying to make hero-calls.

1. Your reasoning has to be absolutely spot on as does your read of the villian.
2. Even then, his nothing can be better than your nothing.
3. Your nothing has to hold up in the off-chance that you're ahead.

Stop trying to make hero-calls.

If you have to be a hero, make hero-raises which make 2&3 obsolete.

ianmc38

lol

Van Dice

1 prob call
2 and 3 not much I can say. I would recommend you fold a lot more preflop if you play postflop like this though

The_Chopper

cardshark202 wrote:

Is this a level? I mean you surely can't have played these hands. Or at least the one in macspower's thread where you minlead on several streets?

Just to address this hand. New player who I don't know joined the table and had played nearly every pot. He knew Bottom Feeder and had raised into his blind both times i think.
He raised to 500 in EP and I called out of BB with Jd9d. Flop comes 932r and I want him to bluff hard at this as I think he has air, so I bet the min 150 and he makes it 1500 and I instant call.
Turn is 2 I lead for 150 again looking for a shove - he flat calls.
River is K and I check to call a bet. He bets 1200 and I call, he declares K high

Guys am I missing something here or is poker not just about playing cards but about playing the man??? Has everyone forgotten this?

I know callings with A high or K high in the long run isn't profitable and these are the only 2 hands I've done this in that I can recall. I feel my strength in poker is reading players and have started trusting my reads alot more. In the Deconstrution thread a while back the guys that replied all said that reading players was the best part of my game and some people privately told me to trust it more (as i was going through a horrid run).

At the moment it's negative EV for me to get my chips all in preflop without AA or KK, I just don't win enough races over the last 16 months so I try take flops. I don't want to call an all in preflop with A3 against 2 random cards. I want to give myself as much chance as possible to get a read and go with it.

The last time I played cash game I laid KK down preflop to a single reraise. I made it 15 got 3 callers and a guy made it 70 or something. I thought he had AA and folded showing the KK after the hand. He duly showed me AA. This is only one of 2 times i've laid KK down preflop and it's not a profitable play to do it - but I had a read and went with it and both times I was right.

Am I completely missing something about the game of poker - is it just about playing your cards and been the first one to get all their chips in first with junk? I'm not looking to make hero calls - i'm looking to turn a profit from a "GAME". Most of the regular players seem to play a standard way - if everyone plays the same way cards will speak. I try play hands a little goofy at times, I try and extract the most when I think I am ahead and if and when I get it wrong I go broke - I can accept that.

A few weeks ago I responded to an omaha hand I played goofy against DeadParrot. I went with a read and was right. Whether the hand was played to perfection is irrelavent, I went with a read and was right. What's the difference between calling with A high on a 88 2 board or calling with A2? If I put Mac on nothing and call with just a pair of 2's does everyone suddenly go fantastic call???? Fact is everytime I've got my money in with A high or K high I've been at least a 70% favourite. Far better than QQ vs AK preflop

Mr.Plough

you just know he has air when the flop comes 9 high?

careca

Chopper - dont know you, but I would agree that if you are happy playing on your instinct, then go with it. It is a big part of poker.

What i would like to know though is the amount of times you went with instinct and got it wrong? And I'm not having a dig at you here.

5starpool

The_Chopper wrote:

What's the difference between calling with A high on a 88 2 board or calling with A2? If I put Mac on nothing and call with just a pair of 2's does everyone suddenly go fantastic call???? Fact is everytime I've got my money in with A high or K high I've been at least a 70% favourite. Far better than QQ vs AK preflop

The difference is that a large part of what he could be bluffing with here still beats you. Any Ax has you in serious trouble here, whereas A2 on an 882 board has Ax in big trouble. If he had AQ/33 for example, would you have posted this hand? These are both hands that if he gets called he assumes he is behind at this point most of the time.

The_Chopper

Mr.Plough wrote:

you just know he has air when the flop comes 9 high?

The board didn't come 982 it came 882 which in theory is a great flop for A high if I thought A high was ahead preflop i.e. in a deck of cards there are only 4 of each cards. When 2 of 1 card comes on the flop that leaves only 2 left in the deck. This makes it less likely that he holds an 8.

If the flop had been 992 do you think Villain plays the hand the same way?

The_Chopper

careca wrote:

Chopper - dont know you, but I would agree that if you are happy playing on your instinct, then go with it. It is a big part of poker.

What i would like to know though is the amount of times you went with instinct and got it wrong? And I'm not having a dig at you here.

I don't make calls with A/K high normally if at all. I have made calls with bottom pair etc before.

Not to be smart but my right to wrongs on marginal hands would be about 5 to 1.

Now my bad calls with 2 pairs/straights/flushes etc aren't that good but then again that's not what we're talking about.

Mr.Plough

The_Chopper wrote:

The board didn't come 982 it came 882 which in theory is a great flop for A high if I thought A high was ahead preflop i.e. in a deck of cards there are only 4 of each cards. When 2 of 1 card comes on the flop that leaves only 2 left in the deck. This makes it less likely that he holds an 8.

If the flop had been 992 do you think Villain plays the hand the same way?

im talking about the j9 hand

The_Chopper

Mr.Plough wrote:

im talking about the j9 hand

Apologies,

I felt he was raising light preflop and if I hit 9 J or some kind of draw I could win quite a bit or push him off in the case of a draw. Maybe quite presumptious - and maybe I'd re-evaluate if the hand played out differently. If you have a hand that beats J9 on 9322 board with 4-5k in the pot with 3k behind - surely you shove the turn here?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

The_Chopper

This thread isn't really go any further - the other one is more interesting.
Hand 1: My gut told me to fold but I was getting a good price and called, he had AK and it held - I went into it about 30%
Hand 2: My gut told me call - villain looked shocked and A high won. I went in about 70% fav.
Hand 3: My gut told me to call and I called. Villain whispered (in shock) I thought you were at it and turned over 64o. K high held up and I went in about 80% favourite.

Every player who replied would have lost all 3 hands had they played preflop like me.

One thing I do except though - is you can get a read from a player that he is weak, call with A/K high only for them to turn over a better A/K high. This did happen me a few weeks back when I reraised with A4 preflop - flop came K104 or something similar, player jammed all in - I read him as weak and called. He said you got me and turns over 88, so fair point on that 5starpool.

It's a bit like when Phil H called TJ Clout with 2 pair on a 4 flush board - TJ said well done only for TJ to find one of the suit in his hand

5starpool

The_Chopper wrote:

Every player who replied would have lost all 3 hands had they played preflop like me.

Results based thinking you think?

At least this is a good advert for people not to bluff you.

The_Chopper

5starpool wrote:

Results based thinking you think?

At least this is a good advert for people not to bluff you.

Well I originally posted these hands as my read was pretty spot on in all 3. I tried to give as much as my thought process as possible.

Just cos it's AQ preflop everyone said call.
Just cos it's A high or K high everyone says fold.

I already had my results in these hands I was trying to make a point that you don't have to have a powerful hand to get your money in as a 4 to 1 favourite.

I like to think outside the box

LuckyLloyd

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The_Chopper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

lolz!! You and Nicky O' D would get on famously.

We don't always actually and I've known Nicky quite a while.

Its comments like this from players such as you that make it easier to call with A high

LuckyLloyd

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Glowingmind

Admit it Lloyd, you can even spell pokar.

LuckyLloyd

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Ace2007

If the flop had of come 992 - and the same play took place you are going to look like a fool - if you think ur A high is ahead, would the correct play not be to reraise preflop and take it down there and then -

RoundTower

sweet thread

The_Chopper

Ace2007 wrote:

If the flop had of come 992 - and the same play took place you are going to look like a fool - if you think ur A high is ahead, would the correct play not be to reraise preflop and take it down there and then -

If flop comes 992 he doesn't play it this way - see other thread

The_Chopper

RoundTower wrote:

sweet thread

If you like this one - check out another one http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055155718

Lazare

LOL, you're a donkey on this thread, and a genius on the other.

I think it's a terrible call fwiw, but your reads seem pretty good. For instance, going with your read (that Mac was weak) and calling there with a mid PP or even AK would be considered great play imo. I think you just need to fine tune, you got extremely lucky this time.

The_Chopper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Oh sigh. I didn't say call because you have AQ in hand 1; and because you have garbage in two. Neither did Dom.

We said call with AQ in one because we can plausibly think of hands we beat. And fold the other two because there are a lot of hands with which they may be bluffing - but still beat our holdings.

Stuff like:
Is condescending and preachy. And it doesn't really make sense. A lot of posters on this board will argue that it is about playing hand - ranges. That's why hands two and three should be very simple folds from your perspective - because you can't put many hands in their range that you beat.

So I'm left wondering if you have posted this because you want to get the word out not to bluff ya? Or is it like a self - validation thread: "you just don't see the angles I do" type of thing?

I understood the point Dom was making - you on the other hand just make off the cuff remarks.
I play poker on instinct when the cards fail me - "if they gave me aces, i'd play aces".
As explained in another thread I figure if he's bluffing I am ahead minimum 66% of the time and as I am getting near 2 to 1 on my money a call in my opinion is a good option. Calling with A rag OOP is something I hate doing by the way - and initially preflop I almost mucked before thinking "umm, he might be at it here".
You continue to play hand ranges and I'll continue to play poker and trust my gut. (I have no personally problem with you by the way, in case it's coming off that way).
By the way I think there has been very little in the way of arguements either way avocating or slamming my play - obviously with a few exceptions :rolleyes:
Thanks guys for those of you who respect my play and concede it was no fluke - even if you didn't agree with it.

The_Chopper

Lazare wrote:

LOL, you're a donkey on this thread, and a genius on the other.

I think it's a terrible call fwiw, but your reads seem pretty good. For instance, going with your read (that Mac was weak) and calling there with a mid PP or even AK would be considered great play imo. I think you just need to fine tune, you got extremely lucky this time.

That is a fair point - if I had called here with A2 8s and 2s, everyone would say i'm a fuc*ing genius, but cos I call with A3 high expecting to be good or calling with K8 high in the other hand thinking I was good people think I'm a calling station.

Ace2007

The_Chopper wrote:

If flop comes 992 he doesn't play it this way - see other thread

y not? i would have played the same way.....

The_Chopper

Ace2007 wrote:

y not? i would have played the same way.....

So you flop trips - get min raised, sutterly give tells off and jam all in?

Ace2007

The_Chopper wrote:

So you flop trips - get min raised, sutterly give tells off and jam all in?

yea i do for the simple reasons, firstly - no one will believe me, and secondly, if you get minraised - other play could have trips as well - easy to push than call if ur kicker is bad...

Scouser in Dub

The_Chopper wrote:

If flop comes 992 he doesn't play it this way - see other thread

he does if he has reason to think you will call with just about anything

rogue trader

Chopper, i like the way you play poker. genuinely.