Line Check 1-2 (deep)

Goodluck2me

I am playing €400 and villain in the hand covers. we are 5 handed at the moment, Villain limps for 2 one callers, i complete in the small blind with 2c3c, big blind makes it 5 more, everyone calls. (28)
Flop is 8c5c3d, i check BB/OR checks Villain bets 25, everyone folds inc BB out of turn, what is your standard play here?

TommyGunne

It may seem a bit nittish but i fold preflop...

Moneymaker

I'd have bet 20-25 and shoved to a raise.

cardshark202

Call. Check-raising this deep is kinda bad.

Goodluck2me

Raise to 75

cardshark202 wrote:

Call. Check-raising this deep is kinda bad.

thats what i figured, obv a flush is rarely a disguised hand, and i can over represent it either as its not the type of game where people fold higher flushes.
i thought check call the flop was best, even though i was oop.

ianmc38

lol @ folding.

Goodluck2me

Raise to 75

ianmc38 wrote:

lol @ folding.

yeha im obv never folding, what do you normally do in this spot?

ianmc38

i would have bet out?

valor

given stacks position & our holding I definitely think leading is the best play here

Goodluck2me

Raise to 75

valor wrote:

given stacks position & our holding I definitely think leading is the best play here

forgive my ignorance here, but care to elaborate. im really not sure of the pro/cons of each approach hence the post.
ta. Bump.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

McWager

I def fold this pre, surprised more hasnt been made of this
pot odds arent fantastic and oop you really need to have a pretty big edge/read on other oplayers to play this profitably imo

as played I would lead flop

zuutroy

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Check, call screams "I'm on a flush draw". Check - raising in a live Dublin game isn't clever, because you are getting a lot of money into the pot with a non nut draw - and the guy who led (assuming he is a standard live player) is not folding top pair or a better club draw.

If you lead out for 20 you disguise your hand - as live Dublin players generally won't bet out on draws, so they don't expect you to. You also are probably setting the price to see the turn, as live Dublin players much prefer calling to raising.

You then open up options on the turn - as you can double barrell on the come; or you can now look to get two streets of value in a sweetened pot if you get there. Or, if you check, you may get a free card a lot given that you showed some strength on the flop.

And finally, lets say you bet 20 on the flop; 35 on the turn - you can triple barrell the river and get some one pair of flopped top pair hands to fold as your line is very strong.

I like leading.

nice post.

Gholimoli

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Check, call screams "I'm on a flush draw". Check - raising in a live Dublin game isn't clever, because you are getting a lot of money into the pot with a non nut draw - and the guy who led (assuming he is a standard live player) is not folding top pair or a better club draw.

If you lead out for 20 you disguise your hand - as live Dublin players generally won't bet out on draws, so they don't expect you to. You also are probably setting the price to see the turn, as live Dublin players much prefer calling to raising.

You then open up options on the turn - as you can double barrell on the come; or you can now look to get two streets of value in a sweetened pot if you get there. Or, if you check, you may get a free card a lot given that you showed some strength on the flop.

And finally, lets say you bet 20 on the flop; 35 on the turn - you can triple barrell the river and get some one pair of flopped top pair hands to fold as your line is very strong.

I like leading.

Lloyd im not at all trying to get at you but I feel like you are over complicating things and also talk about factors that are not really relevant to the question.
Ive seen this is a few of your posts recently when you ask a lot of questions that are really not that important to the hand.
For example in this hand the fact the the hand is played against a “live Dublin player “ is not really that important.
For example would you have different advice if the hand was played in cork or in another country ?
Or if the hand was played online?

The reason why check raising is not good has nothing to do with “live Dublin players”.
It’s simply bad because we are deep and we can not get enough money in on the flop.
The problem is that villain can just call a check raise profitably and shove/fold on the turn depending whether the draw comes in or not.
So the big factor here is the stack size.
If the player is willing to get it all in on the flop with top pair then im not that bothered either cause we almost always either have the best hand or the best draw here .
How ever if you do check raise, villain can call and on the turn you are fecked.
More often than not your draw does not come in and by villain betting the turn you get severely punished for all the money you put in on the flop.
With draws like this you either want to get close to your entire stack in on the flop or failing that you want to get as little as possible in.
I don’t really mind check/calling here but leading had its merits as well.
I think the best thing about leading is that it will force villain to define his hand.
Because he is to act after you and there are several players to act behind him, he will call with a lot of hands and only raise with very strong hand as he will have to consider other players that are yet to act as well.
This is all IMO obviously and I could be very off.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

Leading and getting raised sucks given the stacksizes though. Depending on how the table is playing, I think both leading and check-calling are fine here.

cardshark202

LuckyLloyd wrote:

If this was online 1 / 2, I would be folding my smallblind with 3c2c every single time.

Eh, why would you fold?

Moneymaker

cardshark202 wrote:

Leading and getting raised sucks given the stacksizes though. Depending on how the table is playing, I think both leading and check-calling are fine here.

I'd be betting out in the hopes of being raised, so I can re-pop. We're in good shape against a huge range of hands.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Flushdraw

I had a similar hand in the SE on Saturday night although the opposite scenario as stacks were very shallow.

There has just been a 4th cash table formed full of drunks and i had gotten knocked out of the tournie on the FT bubble so i jumped into the cash game with €100 while waiting on Fergus. It was a really shallow game because 6 others bought in for €100 and 1 guy for €400

1st hand i get 5c4c in the BB. UTG+1 (€400 stack) makes it €7. 3 callers into me i call as does BB and UTG who limped.

Flop is 6x7c9c

Checked to OR who bets 25, MP makes it 75, I ship for 93, as does UTG, OR folds and MP is allin aswel.

MP has a straight, UTG has 6c2c and i'm drawing dead already. We all turned the hands up before the turn was dealt

Club on the river and UTG takes it down..I didnt mind too much because it was worth a shot for a €350 pot and she was possibly the best looking girl i've ever seen in the SE. She probably moved to Gholis table over the next hour..You wouldnt have missed her.

If that was a deep stack hand, i would have lead the flop and folded to that much action which is the advice i would give for your hand.

cardshark202

32suited in this spot is not a garbage hand unless most players on the table are playing like 40bbs or less.

Goodluck2me

Raise to 75

cardshark202 wrote:

Leading and getting raised sucks given the stacksizes though. Depending on how the table is playing, I think both leading and check-calling are fine here.

i agree with this, i dont necessarily want to felt the ante-nut flush either, as it should be hard to get action by a worse hand.
Also everyone when you say lead you realise you are leading into 5 players? does this not overrepresent our hand, ie 2pair plus and therefore even if they dont put me on the flush they wont exactly pay me off light.
Obviiously taking the pot down straight away is a ++.

Anyway i check called 25 on the flop. turn brought the Kc, whats the best plan now? pot of 75 and effective remaining stack 325.

Goodluck2me

Raise to 75

bump

RoundTower

bet 75

Goodluck2me

Raise to 75

RoundTower wrote:

bet 75

how?