Moving on up

Dacelonid

Hi all,
Been lurking here a while and now that I am finally starting to see some improvement (my own discipline is letting me down more than bad play I think) I thought I would stop lurking and start making some kind of contribution.

Before I go on though, thanks to all those people who wrote threads with invaluable advice. There is a lot of them, but the one I keep coming back to is Phantom_Lords thread:A Guide to Low Stakes, but thanks to everyone that takes the time to write articles to help out us beginners.

As I said I want to start contributing to this forum, but I guess like all beginners I have to start with a few questions.

I have started using Poker Tracker and my VP$IP is terrible, roughly 35 (although that is down from 40+ so at least it is moving in the right direction). How is that determined. Is it limping in pre-flop or how. Basically how do I get it down even more.

With regard to raising pre-flop, in a late position I would open for 3BB (maybe 4BB or 5BB depending on strength of the hand) and then c-bet a lot.
I think this is too rigid and I should be raising more, or being more fluid in my actions or should I stick to a rigid 3BB raise.
At 2+2 I had a glance at an article(must re-read it in full later) that said it should be 3BB +1BB for every limper, assuming a full table and everybody limps, it would be a raise of 10BB which seems pretty high to me!! Whats people thoughts on this?

As I said my major failing atm is discipline. Again this is something that is getting better and something that I am working on.
One of the things that has helped is an exercise in Sklanskys book, where you deal out a flop and quickly figure out what is nuts, second nuts etc then the same for the turn and river. Is there any other exercises that people do/have to improve their playing without costing money?

Which brings me on to the next question, as I said I have Sklanskys book Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players and while it is a good book, I don't think it is great for me. Too much deviation between what he suggests for the 10/20 limit game, whereas I play NL. Too many times in the book he says, this would have to be changed for NL play, but doesn't say how to change it or what to change it to. So which book would people recommend to an improving poor player, Winning Low-Limit Holdem by Lee Jones or Holdem Excellence by Lou Krieger or something completly different.

Once again thanks for all the help people, and I hope I can make some worthwhile contribution to the forum myself.
Dace

mdwexford

VP$IP is every time you put money in the pot when you are not in the blinds. Be more selective with your pre-flop starting hands and it will go down.

If there are 9 limpers into me and im raising im making it like 13-15bb's, a standard raise is 3-4bb's with no limpers and use the 1bb's rule per limper after that.

Ive never read a book about cash play but im sure there are some good ones available but from reading here and 2+2 you should learn a lot.

Mr.Plough

vpip is the percentage of hands where you voluntarily put money into the pot. the 3 main stats you should keep an eye on starting out are

vpip - as above
pfr - the % of hands you raise pre flop
af - aggression factor on any givin street which is (bets+raises)/calls

a good guideline is to have your pfr more than half your vpip, and your total postflop af more than 2.

to lower your vpip just tighten your starting hand requirements. play tighter than a nuns hole in sb and bb. open up a bit in lp. you should be opening more hands in lp when its folded around to you.

varying your opening raise size with the strength of your hand is a leak. I tend to stick with 4bbs + 1 per limper.


have a look at this article re: your pt stats.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=4946669&an=0&page=0#Post4946669


hope this helps

El Stuntman

a VPIP of 35 is way loose - I'm like 22 and I'm still too loose

never mind books, post up some hands here instead and the advice/debate generated should help a lot....just be thick-skinned as we are a bunch of insensitive dolts

Mr.Plough

if your aggressive enough you can be a winning player with a vpip in the 30s. most people arn't though

Dacelonid

El Stuntman wrote:

a VPIP of 35 is way loose - I'm like 22 and I'm still too loose

never mind books, post up some hands here instead and the advice/debate generated should help a lot....just be thick-skinned as we are a bunch of insensitive dolts

I intend to, and I have no problem with criticism, especially criticism that is to my benefit. Hell I even ask my manager to forget about telling me the things I do well, just concentrate on what i do badly.

As I said I have played a bit before but only starting to take it seriously now, so what I think I'll do is go back over my hand history and pick out a few bad hands and see where I made the mistake.

btw by seriously I mean trying to better my game, not betting serious money. We are only talking micro limits here.

El Stuntman

Dacelonid wrote:

btw by seriously I mean trying to better my game, not betting serious money. We are only talking micro limits here.

the limits aren't important really - you need to think more in terms of your return (i.e. BB/100) than the actual $$$ amount

stick up some hands anyway

dvdfan

See this thread from boards a while back:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53632398#post53632398

In that thread in one of the posts i made near the top youll see a 6max chart for hands you should play from certain positions. If you follow this chart fairly tightly then youll be coming in with a V$PIP of around 18 or 19 and a PFR of 14-16 or so which is pretty good.

If you want to improve i would highly recommend sticking rigidly to this chart until your beating your level consistently. Then i would start trying new things like raising a wider range from late position, 3betting etc. People will be correct to tell you to raise a wider range now from late position but the biggest thing ive noticed at the micro level and its so so true is you dont need to do anything fancy other than play your big hands hard.

If your V$PIP is 30%+ now then you dont have a good grasp of the fundementals or discipline so your post flop play is very likely to be the same so until you get a better grasp of things i think playing to that chart will save you lots because you dont have to worry so much about playing marginal hands.

Some of my biggest losses/downswings came when i tried to deviate from the above chart and start adding in things like raising marginal hands from late position/double barrelling/3betting without a clue etc and as soon as i went back to basics i started making a profit again. When your more confident in your post flop play you can add more to your game.

You asked about exercises that help improve your game for free. Heres some i find useful.

Always try and ask yourself what hand you beat that your opponent would make this bet with, if the answer isnt a confident one or one that makes sense given the action then fold, you maybe wrong sometimes but most times your saving money.

Try to assign a range to your opponent preflop when calling him or if he calls you based on hes V$PIP and PFR, this will be helpful in narrowing the range in the first question i mentioned above and also in deciding wheter you should call. you can use this free program to help with that:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Number=10666905

Always think ahead, if your calling a flop bet what is your plan on the turn, if your calling a flop raise for example is it with the intention of folding to another bet on the turn and if so you need to consider how often he will bet the turn based on reads or stats and then decide if its worth it.

Start Posting hands and listen to the advice, dont keep making the same mistakes and when you feel confident enough try offering advice on other peoples hands and dont be afraid to look stupid, try to be the first to offer advice so your putting yourself on the line instead of just aggreing with someone elses comments, youll look silly a few times and get berated but youll learn alot.

Lastly if a passive player raises you i.e Agression is around 1.6 or less then youll need 2 pair + to continue as its never a bluff often enough for you to make a profitable call, i think thats called the Fuzz rule now:D

Good Luck

NickyOD

What stakes are you playing and do you mind telling us what your bankroll is?

I know I'm repeating what's been pointed out already but..

a) don't vary your pre-flop raises based on the strength of your hand. This is giving away info. Consistency with your pre-flop raises and bet sizing is the key to being difficult to play against.

b) Your VP$IP is too loose. You can be profitable probably anywhere between 18% and 30% but you're better off starting right down at around the 20-22% mark and then open up when you feel more comfortable with your opponents. You should play very loose on the button and only slightly tighter from the CO. Play tight from other positions. Also UTG 6 handed is not really much different from UTG 9 handed and your range should be generally very tight from that position IMO.

c) limping: Try to avoid it except maybe with small pairs and some other hands after there have been limper's. Generally you should come into the pot with a raise or a re-raise every time.

d) Playing the blinds. Defending your blinds is over rated. Also any hand you feel is worth playing to a raise in the blinds is often a hand you should be reraising with.

e) Don't get cute: Don't slowplay Aces or Kings and don't limp with them. Avoid slow-playing most of the time. Play your big hands aggressively on the early streets rather than speeding up on the later ones.

f) Use Gamteime+ or PAHud along with PT and chase th players with a VPIP of 40% and over. If the table is playing tight and your bets are not getting called leave the table.

g) Discipline: You say this is your biggest weakness. The simple solution is to consciously say to yourself "I am not going to get out of line on this table, I am just going to play my big hands aggressively and let the fish pay me off" That is basically how you play all stakes below 2/4. Don't bluff very often unless you know your opponent is bluffable.

Good luck.

Van Dice

dvdfan wrote:

See this thread from boards a while back:...

You should prob be playing higher!

Dacelonid

->dvdfan, that is some great advice thanks. I had a look at that chart and it opened my eyes a fair bit, I knew position was important but that chart really puts it into perspective, so thanks a lot.

->NickyOD, playing the lowest of the lowest, 0.02c and have 20 buys in's and will keep it at least 20 buy in's. I have downloaded GT+ and it seems fantastic. I guess it will take a while to build up a better picture, but the info it gives is fantastic.

======================================================
I am just going to keep posting my hands in this thread unless it gets too big.
Due to a mix up with PT and my recycle bin (don't ask) I managed to lose about 1000 hands of info and have had to start again, so from tonights session I have the following 2 hands

Hand 1:
Seat 1: squalshie ($5.00 in chips)
Seat 2: kenic ($6.88 in chips) DEALER
Seat 3: Norbert555 ($1.72 in chips)
Seat 4: Gigogigo ($5.00 in chips)
Seat 6: Dacelonid ($3.31 in chips)
Seat 7: CatsEye09 ($5.93 in chips)
Seat 8: yodah42 ($0.98 in chips)
Seat 9: bcecil123 ($5.00 in chips)
Seat 10: Manez ($4.86 in chips)
Norbert555: Post SB $0.01
Gigogigo: Post BB $0.02
bcecil123: Post BB $0.02
squalshie: Post BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Manez [Jc Kc]
Dealt to Dacelonid [Ad Ad]
Dacelonid: Raise $0.12
CatsEye09: Call $0.12
yodah42: Fold
bcecil123: Fold
Manez: Call $0.12
squalshie: Fold
kenic: Call $0.12
Norbert555: Fold
Gigogigo: Call $0.10
*** FLOP *** [Kd 6s 7s]
Gigogigo: Check
Dacelonid: Bet $0.30
CatsEye09: Call $0.30
Manez: Raise $1.20
kenic: Fold
Gigogigo: Fold
Dacelonid: Call $0.90
CatsEye09: Call $0.90
*** TURN *** [4c]
Dacelonid: Bet $1.00
CatsEye09: Fold
Manez: Call $1.00
*** RIVER *** [5h]
Dacelonid: Allin $0.99
Manez: Call $0.99
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $8.13 Rake $0.10
Dacelonid: wins $8.13

Thats seems like a lot a gibberish to me, but I think I played it right.
Anybody think I should have played it differently.


Hand 2:
Seat 1: Maxippouce ($1.61 in chips)
Seat 2: panthasrule ($1.33 in chips)
Seat 3: Dacelonid ($2.44 in chips)
Seat 4: MarkusENG ($4.89 in chips)
Seat 5: Diverliberty ($6.87 in chips)
Seat 6: Nivellen20 ($5.72 in chips) DEALER
Seat 8: BanLuck13ok ($0.97 in chips)
Seat 9: dastefanda ($1.50 in chips)
Seat 10: 524235818 ($4.05 in chips)
BanLuck13ok: Post SB $0.01
dastefanda: Post BB $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Dacelonid [Kd Ks]
524235818: Call $0.02
Maxippouce: Fold
panthasrule: Call $0.02
Dacelonid: Raise $0.12
MarkusENG: Fold
Diverliberty: Fold
Nivellen20: Fold
BanLuck13ok: Fold
dastefanda: Fold
524235818: Fold
panthasrule: Call $0.10
*** FLOP *** [Js 10d 8h]
panthasrule: Allin $1.21
Dacelonid: Fold
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $1.48 Rake $0.02
panthasrule: wins $1.48

I raised KK preflop obviously, but his all-in after the flop was worrying, figured he flopped a straight. Then again of course he could just be bluffing. Couldn't tell really so folded. What would anyone else have done.

Thanks
Dace

dvdfan

Find a converter for the HH, its very hard to read them like that and your better of posting a new thread for the HH easier to keep track of.

Hand 1: Wow, do you usually get this many callers with a 6x raise and if yes then raise more to try and narrow the field with your premium pairs.

AA vs 1 random hand = 85%
AA vs 2 random hands = 70%
AA vs 3 random hands = 62%
AA vs 4 random hands = 55%

So you get the picture, AA isnt that strong now with all them callers and so i wouldnt be in a hurry to build a pot now. To be honest its hard to give advice on how to play AA in a 5 way pot because you should never be in that situation but since your in early position id probably just check/call here. You only bet 1/2 the pot and with 4 people to act on a flush draw board thats not so good, if your going to bet here bet 3/4 of the pot - full pot.

Theres 60c in the pot, you bet 30 and the next player calls that 120 in the pot and 30c for Manez to call so hes getting 4/1 to make the call, if he has a flush draw hes making a correct call because hes 4/1 to hit another spade on the turn so your forcing him to play correctly. Have a look around for odds charts and get used to them if your not already, i hate maths and im not very good but most of them youll commit to memory after coming across them so often.

So if you bet 90 into the pot and then next player calls then theres now 240 and its 90 for Manez to call and hes only getting 2.6/1 and now if he calls he making a bad call.

Youve only $2 left on the turn so i would actually either have folded the flop or pushed the flop considering stack sizes and the board texture, lots of drawing hands there but ill leave the comments in above for reference. Id say either decision is close. Your turn bet sizing is poor again $1 into a $4 pot, try to make it somewhere in the middle of 1/2 - 2/3 the pot on the turn, again with stack sizes this dosent really apply but i taught id point it out.

Hand 2:

This is where stats are important and reads are important. Get Poker Tracker and PAHUD if possible, if not Gametime+ will do. With no reads id call here in a heartbeat. Theres no point thinking too much about your opponents at this level but would a flopped straight risk losing value on that flop by pushing, not likely, your ahead here an awful lot.

When posting a player stats post hes V$pip, PFR (Pre Flop Raise), Total Aggression Factor (anything under 1.8 is passive 1.8 - 2.2 is borderline and 2.2+ is aggressive) and No of Hands as this is really important in these type of situations also Went to showdown and Won at Showdown are good stats too.

Went to showdown (If its >30% then he calls to much, if its >40% hes a calling station so never bluff him and bet your made hands hard and consider checking draws)
Won at SD (If this is <40% he probably overvalues 1 pair hands and calls a bit too much, 40-45% is borderline and someone with 45%+ is usually a half decent player and wont showdown too many weak hands.

coillcam

Just 1 thing raising 6 times the BB is a leak. You are scaring too many potential customers away and also overcommiting your self by playing larger pots. Just make 3.5 or 4 times BB your standard raise adding 1 BB per limper. So 7/8c is good.

Hand 1. go all in after being raised on the flop.

Hand 2. Call that flop. You nor the great daniel negreanu are wearing x-ray specs here and know for definite you are vs. a str8/set. QQ/AJ will show up so often.

mrflash

Most of the top tournament players online have a vpip between 18 and 22

Dacelonid

Just 1 thing raising 6 times the BB is a leak. You are scaring too many potential customers away and also overcommiting your self by playing larger pots. Just make 3.5 or 4 times BB your standard raise adding 1 BB per limper. So 7/8c is good.

Hand 1: Wow, do you usually get this many callers with a 6x raise and if yes then raise more to try and narrow the field with your premium pairs.

Conflicting advice maybe????

wrt Hand 1 I reckon the reason I got so many callers was because I had raised about 3-4 hands previous to that and I would say have a pretty aggressive image at the table at that time. Hadn't been caught out in any steals, a lot of pre-flop action and I figured that they just wanted to see a flop for a change. Not that I am complaining or anything:D

wrt Hand 2, a lot of the time in the past, my instinct has been to fold, but I have called anyway and lost. In this situation again my first instinct was to fold, so I listened to it. Granted he might have had AJ or similar, but he was so quick to go all-in, literally the flop came down and he was all-in that I figured a straight or a set, and I was leaning to a straight.
Something I heard once, folding when you should call is only a small mistake compared to calling when you should fold.

I had GT+ running at the time, but never thought to take out the stats for people to include in the Hands above. At what stage thought does the info become meaningful. As I said I lost all my HH so had to start PT from scratch, most of the people at the table had played less than 50 hands (I was at the table the longest and had about 100 hands) so is the PT stats for those players even indicitive of their style of play given the small sample size?

Thanks for the feedback.
Dace

dvdfan

Regarding the raising issue, col is right in that you should be raising 3-4xBB + 1 per limper but what im saying is that if your normally getting this many callers when you raise then you should raise heavier with your premium pair hands because you want to build a pot and thin the field.

Normally if you do this at 50nl and 100nl your hand would become transparent but im not sure how it plays at this level and maybe its just a once off but if i was getting this many callers regularly i would tighten up my range alot for raising and when i do have a hand i.e AA-JJ or AK ill raise it very hard because youll still get 1 or 2 callers.

You should always adjust your play to the table so if the table is playing very loose theres no point raising suited connecters, AT and marginal type hands because most of the time in late position the reason raising marginal hands is profitable is because we have some fold equity and will take down the blinds alot of the times and if not the cbet will take down the pot, against calling stations and loose players like these raising marginal hands losses alot of value because theyll never fold.

And Vice Versa if the table is tight ill loosen up and raise junk from late position because my hands wont need to go to showdown against tighter players so ill make a profit stealing blinds. Of course if the table is tight in a cash game its best just to leave.

So in summary normally raise 3-4xbb + 1bb per limper but at a loose table tighten up raising range and raise heavier to try and get headsup or 3way because your premium pairs lose value the more people the call the flop.

On datamining, most people will tell you you dont need to datamine at that level and there mostly right because theres so many bad player and players playing for fun that have no clue but i think datamining is very important and it cant help to have information to help us make a better decision. Having more stats on that player could have won you a buyin in that situation and i think stats save me at least a buyin a day so i would recommend if your budget allows to get some datamining software so when you sit at a table you have stats on most people and then your edge increases. btw 50 hands isnt enough to establish a good read so id suggest being careful about interpreting the stats until they get to around 100+ although youll spot fish/nits alot quicker.

Dont know if this has been mentioned in the thread already but one massively important thing at micro levels is NEVER NEVER BLUFF unless youve a savage read, id advise this all the way up to 50nl at least, theyll just call you down with their bottom pair.

On the 2nd hand its not that its a bad fold and your read could be right, but just dont think of it as profit in this hand you have to look at these situations over a period of time, so if you call all in here over 50 hands youll make a nice profit IMO. The again considering the slim odds your getting and the lack of info on the player and you havent alot invested and the drawy board a fold may well be a more profitable option. It comes back again to stats, if you had datamined here you would have much better info to help you make the best +EV situation and maybe my "ill call in a heartbeat" is a little biased because of the level your playing at.

But theyll do this with so many drawing hands TP and MP hands that you'd be surprised how often your ahead at this level. When you said he auto pushed, had you seen him do this before and showdown? Alot of times players will push here to protect their TP hands from the straight.