Anselmo's white pride speeches on Youtube

buck65

Was checking out some Pantera on youtube and came across a few of Phil Anselmo's live speeches on white pride. Basically saying white kids buying black music is bad because they hate us etc...that we white people should b e proud of who we are. Wondering if you guys have any opinions on this kind of thing or Anselmo's thoughts? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iQZEBBg7hE

MoominPapa

Does this mean I've have to burn all my Public Enemy records and Anthrax should be declared race tratiors? Maybe I should stop listening to Thin Lizzy and Hendricks as well, just in case.
I wonder what they listen to when he's hanging out with his, lots of, black friends:rolleyes:
How many people at a Pantera concert do you think would have some r'n'b in their collection? Do you think he meant for the fans to go home and burn their little brother and sisters P-Puff-Diddy-Daddy cds?
Low grade demagoguery is what it is
BTW if Stop black on black crime means black on white crime is ok than they must mean white on black crime is ok too! surely some mistake

cournioni

Personally, I totally understand the point he's trying to get across. Basically he is having a go at the media for being over PC to the point that it is acceptable for rap bands to be so racist, and that if a white band ever did the same (not that he condones it) they would be lynched for it.

The whole "White Pride" thing isn't anything to do with racism, just the same as black pride doesn't have anything to do with anything. When he says "Are you proud of who you are?", it shows that he isn't necessarily picking sides. He is making the point that white folk who dress/speak/live as a black person and listen to white hating rap music are not proud of who they are or their culture.

Personally I agree with alot of what he says, because I can understand where he is coming from with the whole wigger thing. But he still comes across as an asshole because of it. I think there is a video of him in a confrontation with a black security guard (who obviously took it the wrong way) afterwards somewhere on youtube...

0ubliette

The whole overly PC thing hes 100% correct on. I listen to a bit of rap from time to time, but even in mainstream rap, on dr. dre's 'tha chronic' theres a line in the song 'the day the niggas took over' (relating to the LA riots in 92) where snoop says something along the lines of "and break them white men off something properly, i dont love them so them cant love me". Snoop and dre are probably 2 of the biggest names in hip hop, imagine if metallica had a song with lyrics like 'i dont love black people so they cant love me'? They'd be lynched. I dont agree with racism in any form, but it is grating that hip hop artists are allowed far more leeway with their lyrics than any white band would be.
If black artists can say stuff like that, then phil anselmo is well within his rights to say hes proud to be white, hell, im proud to be white, jsut like im sure asians are proud to be asian, etc etc.

buck65

I guess I know where Anselmo is coming from too, but I did feel very uncomfortable watching it and the way the crowd responded also, I would have hated to be a black man in that audience, I supose there is a time and a place for speeches I felt there was a bit of a KKK vibe going on.

Het-Field

In fairness Anselmo is a cock, who was soley responsible for the breakup of Metals most powerful band of the 1990s. It was he who began using heroin, which is disgusting, it was he who began recording tracks in New Orleans while the rest of Pantera continued to work in Texas, and it was he who cancelled the Tatoo the Planet Tour out of sheer Lazyness. Im a huge Pantera fan, but I would refuse to go to a Down Concert because of him.

Alongside Kerry King and Dave Mustaine in Rock and Rolls Hall of Dickheads

dcr22B

Het-Field wrote:

Alongside Kerry King and Dave Mustaine in Rock and Rolls Hall of Dickheads

Don't forget Lars Ulrich there as well!

I'll never forgive Anselmo and Pantera for not coming to Tattoo the Planet in 2001 as I missed them when they played here in the mid90s although I was lucky enough to be at Donington in 1994.

neGev

Het-Field wrote:

Alongside Kerry King...in Rock and Rolls Hall of Dickheads

What?

Also, there's nothing wrong with having pride in your race, although Anselmo is hardly the sort of shining light to be an ambassadorial figure for Caucasians.

Karl Hungus

I'm of the opinion that pride does not equal hate. There is a lot of hipocrisy and double standards in the whole politically correct spectrum, so I certainly see where he's coming from.

He is an arsehole though.

Patricide

yup, total ass but you can see what hes trying to get across, hes just saying it like a dick.

Het-Field

dcr22B wrote:

Don't forget Lars Ulrich there as well!

I'll never forgive Anselmo and Pantera for not coming to Tattoo the Planet in 2001 as I missed them when they played here in the mid90s although I was lucky enough to be at Donington in 1994.

Ah in fairness, Lars Ulrich is great !!! So what if he wanted a few extra Bucks ? He has given me many hours of Musical pleasure, as has Kerry King.

I was in Dallas in July and forgot to go to arlington to see Dimebags Grave. I held my head in shame, as I FORGOT ONE OF THE GREATS WAS BURIED THERE

blacktruck

even though i dont really like the chap i think he has a point,if a white person walked around with a white power top on they would get hounded,but when black people do it its "cool" and exceptable.another thing that is underlooked is the racism between ethnic minorites,but thats another days work.

Patricide

ehh lars ulrich great? well in the way that he was in metallica and helped create modern metal then hell yes, but in the way that he is now then hell no and although i dont know the chap personally he is reputed to be one of the biggest assholes in metal. I mean that doesnt mean i dont like his music but like you know i love megadeth but dave mustaine is meant to be a DICK

Undergod

Okay, but to take a slightly different approach, race pride is racist because it's recognizing and enforcing the distinction between races.

That of course is a very strict definition, and I while I don't have any interest in race pride, it's not necessarily a bad thing.

nij

The words 'white pride' always raise red flags for me. Whites are still top dog in the world, I personally think we should have a little bit more humility. Being white is an accident of birth...nothing to be proud of there - there's no achievement, and you are damn lucky to be born white in this world. Equally, there's nothing stopping us from having our culture/music, as long as we don't pro-actively exclude other races from taking part if they wish.

cournioni

nij wrote:

The words 'white pride' always raise red flags for me. Whites are still top dog in the world, I personally think we should have a little bit more humility. Being white is an accident of birth...nothing to be proud of there - there's no achievement, and you are damn lucky to be born white in this world. Equally, there's nothing stopping us from having our culture/music, as long as we don't pro-actively exclude other races from taking part if they wish.

But the point he is making is that it is ok for other races to be proud of their race in media circles yet whites cannot? Why not?!

I agree with Undergod to an extent, distincting between races isn't exactly a very good thing, we should all treat each other the same. However, I think the point that is being made is that the whites are being descriminated against also in certain cases. That is what Anselmo is having a go at.

Again I believe he just comes across as an asshole in the process.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

because white people run the world? and for white people to be lamenting their culture or race would be the same as paris hilton complaining about how hard life is for her.

Dragan

Yawn.

Skin colour is bollix to begin with. Mingle folks. It's good for you.

nij

Mordeth wrote:

because white people run the world? and for white people to be lamenting their culture or race would be the same as paris hilton complaining about how hard life is for her.

Yeah, that's sort of what I mean. Blacks never enslaved whites. It's not exactly a level playing field. Racism is still a big problem, and I think blacks should be as proud as they like.

Now, 'white pride' is a different story altogether, and usually a symptom of something much worse. In America, whites are still the majority, and they hold all the power. White Pride, to me, is an utterly pointless pursuit, and I wouldn't touch it with a 12 foot barge pole.

Why couldn't he have spoken simply about 'metal' pride, or anti-rap/pop music pride, and how you shouldn't swallow everything 'the man' shoves down your throat...?

Does 'white' include people like Slash and Kirk Hammett?? What about Jimi Hendrix. Music transcends skin colour.

So let the minorities have their t-shirts with slogans like "It's a black/gay/Jewish/Hispanic/etc.. thing, you wouldn't understand". It's no threat, nor is meant to be discriminatory. Given white history, though, I think it's best, like I said before, to have a bit more humility.

damonjewel

Anyone else notice the irony that his bands name and that, is also the symbol of Militant Black revolutionaries?

Personally I'm proud of my green skin. Not that I'm an alien or something, just in dire need of nourishment, sleep and an aspirin

cournioni

nij wrote:

Yeah, that's sort of what I mean. Blacks never enslaved whites. It's not exactly a level playing field. Racism is still a big problem, and I think blacks should be as proud as they like.

Now, 'white pride' is a different story altogether, and usually a symptom of something much worse. In America, whites are still the majority, and they hold all the power. White Pride, to me, is an utterly pointless pursuit, and I wouldn't touch it with a 12 foot barge pole.

Why couldn't he have spoken simply about 'metal' pride, or anti-rap/pop music pride, and how you shouldn't swallow everything 'the man' shoves down your throat...?

Does 'white' include people like Slash and Kirk Hammett?? What about Jimi Hendrix. Music transcends skin colour.

So let the minorities have their t-shirts with slogans like "It's a black/gay/Jewish/Hispanic/etc.. thing, you wouldn't understand". It's no threat, nor is meant to be discriminatory. Given white history, though, I think it's best, like I said before, to have a bit more humility.

Oh FFS! :rolleyes:

Are you white? Are you proud of who you are? Anselmo is having a go at the people who aren't proud of who they are by following music that is being racist towards their race. He is also having a go at the media being over PC by actually publicising these bands. These bands ARE RACIST AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE, whether you like it or not.

Yes the white race has been "top dog", but you cannot say that white people have not lived in poverty or haven't been burnt out of their homes for being white (eg. Robert Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe).

White people living with a black majority can be descriminated against just as much, as blacks living with a white majority in America. Do you agree or not?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

i'm not proud of being white, I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

and with the amount of people shelling out loads for fake tan, sun booths and the like it seems not a lot of people like being white.

cournioni

Mordeth wrote:

i'm not proud of being white, I had absolutely nothing to do with it.

and with the amount of people shelling out loads for fake tan, sun booths and the like it seems not a lot of people like being white.

I believe the words Anselmo used were "are you proud of who you are?". Whether you had nothing do with with your colour or not doesn't matter. Do you hate the fact that you are white?

I know I don't, and I wouldn't if I was black/yellow/green/pink/blue... I am happy with who I am and how I conduct myself. I don't have to act black to fit in, I don't have to act "all metal" to fit in either, I am myself and if people don't like it then they know where they can go. I believe that is what Anselmo means when he was giving that "pride speech".

klaus flouride

Yes the white race has been "top dog", but you cannot say that white people have not lived in poverty or haven't been burnt out of their homes for being white (eg. Robert Mugabe regime in Zimbabwe).

White people living with a black majority can be descriminated against just as much, as blacks living with a white majority in America. Do you agree or not?[/QUOTE]

In fairness, with regards Zimbabwe, when 10% of the population own 90% of the land its only a matter of time before theres a revolt- just like there was in this country at the beginning of the century.

Most musicians are dicks, I know this to be fact because i'm a musician and i'm a dick- in fact I'm proud of it, in fact I'm more proud of being a dick than being white.
I think all that White/black power stuff is total crap- the minute you engage in any of that stuff you might aswell declare yourself to be the biggest dick in the world (although I might have something to say about it), so you should choose not to. Just because scoopy scoopy dogg dog and Icey - T, and their ilk, talk about black power it doesn't mean they're right to be doing so.

Give Dave Mustaine a break, c'mon, he's ginger- how many of you have to live with such an affliction?

nij

Yes I'm white. I'm proud of who I am, but not because of my skin colour. That's an accident of birth. Only through great deeds shall I enter the gates of Valhalla.

Now he could have taken that opportunity to speak out against racism in music, but he didn't. Of course he was talking about white pride - he said "next time you wake up and look in the mirror...etc". He directly spoke of blackness and whiteness too. If he was too dumb to make his real point properly, that's his own problem.

We all excuse a certain amount of 'anti-white' racism - just watch Richard Pryor or any other black comedian. There is a reason for that, and I've already given my opinion on that reason. Of course there are blacks who preach persistent, hateful anti-white racism, but they are too few and far between to warrant a speech in a concert. It would be as pointless as 50 cent getting on the mic the try and 'raise awareness' about hardcore neo-nazis - we all know they exist, but we don't give them the time of day.

Now, if your average white comedian started to include anti-black racist language in his act, I'd be seriously worried, because we all know that for the most part, there's a difference. I mean really, who cares if a black man says something about 'whitey' - we run western civilisation.

At the end of the day, I just wish ALL racism would disappear.

nij

klaus flouride wrote:

Most musicians are dicks, I know this to be fact because i'm a musician and i'm a dick- in fact I'm proud of it, in fact I'm more proud of being a dick than being white.
I think all that White/black power stuff is total crap- the minute you engage in any of that stuff you might aswell declare yourself to be the biggest dick in the world (although I might have something to say about it), so you should choose not to. Just because scoopy scoopy dogg dog and Icey - T, and their ilk, talk about black power it doesn't mean they're right to be doing so.

Give Dave Mustaine a break, c'mon, he's ginger- how many of you have to live with such an affliction?

I have to say, I've been disappointed by a lot of musicians lately. I saw a video of Zakk Wylde saying, "F*ck Iraq" and going on a clueless tirade about 'what they did to us'.

cournioni

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=oDDnyzkHsqs

nij

It's clear he has some resentment built up towards blacks. How does he know why someone might sneer at him? Besides, we all present ourselves a certain way. We wear our beliefs. If he walks around with tattoos and a shaved head, what kind of reaction does he expect? If I saw a guy like him on the street, my first thought might be that he's a racist. Equally, if I saw a guy with long shaggy hair and a multi-coloured poncho, my guess would be that he's not exactly a conservative. So why bitch and moan about black people sneering at you when you walk around looking like a white nationalist? It's not as if his hairline is receding.

Who knows what Anselmo says in the privacy of in own house... From watching the video that the OP posted though, an objective viewer could easily come to the conclusion that he's a racist, or a closet white nationalist. The stuff you say in an on-stage outburst is more likely to represent your true feelings than a TV interview is.

Racism is something that builds as a result of a few bad experiences, and walking around like a skinhead could be the spark the ignites those experiences. Whether or not he's oblivious to that he something only he knows for sure.

cournioni

Does that excuse their actions? Spitting at someone because they have a shaved head? Give me a break. Of course Alselmo has the right to have a go at people who spit at him in the street... Who wouldn't?

0ubliette

nij wrote:

Blacks never enslaved whites.

An entire town in cork was kidnapped and sold into slavery by a black muslim pirate in the 1700's. Theres hundreds, if not thousands of accounts of white people being sold into slavery back then ffs. Read the book 'white gold'.

And Anselmo HAS a point. Just the other day reading about these race protests in Jena, Louisiana. and heres a photo of a black guy marching along wearing a t-shirt that says BLACK POWER. Now, if he was white, and wearing a t-shirt with WHITE POWER on it, thats racist, but the black guy isnt?

Karl Hungus

nij wrote:

Being white is an accident of birth...nothing to be proud of there - there's no achievement

You see, this is the kinda thing that gets me. Any time the idea of pride in one's race is brought up, not just on these boards, but many others, there's always a lot of criticism and the whole "Accident of birth" thing gets bandied about.

Yet the same is never said to people of other races who proclaim pride in their race. Nobody ever says to a black person that they've got nothing to be proud of. Infact, the opposite is true, because a lot of people seem to think that something like Black Pride is to be encouraged, it's a good thing.

Now, the way I look at things, pride should either be a good thing or a bad thing, and it should be applied universally. None of this "It's a good thing for you to be proud, but it's a bad thing for you other guys to be proud" bull****. I think ridiculous double standards like that probably account for a lot of resentment and racism.

Mordeth wrote:

and for white people to be lamenting their culture or race would be the same as paris hilton complaining about how hard life is for her.

Oh yes, because all white people live lives like Paris Hilton. :rolleyes:

Honestly, I'd never expect such a stupid statement from you Mordeth.

nij

Like I said, it's about humility. Like it or not, it's not a level playing field. "Whites" hold most of the power in western civilisation. White pride is a dangerous area to venture into. Black pride? Most blacks in America are African-American. It's more like 'African pride'. Nothing wrong with having a sense of pride about you ancestry (though I still don't fully understand where the 'pride' lies). It's like 'Irish pride', or 'Italian pride'. Pretty harmless.

Whites come from many different places. Some of us are Celts, others are Vikings/Norsemen, others are Saxons...and so on. The only unifying trait in whites, is the fact of being NOT BLACK, so I find the concept of 'White Pride' to be a little creepy. How can a Swede and an Italian get together and celebrate their 'whiteness'?? It doesn't make sense to me.

Blacks had to fight for their civil rights not so long ago, and not so much further back in history, there was a certain 'white power' movement going on in Europe.

All racism should end. All of it. But I make no secret of the fact the a black man making a joke about 'whitey' doesn't bother me quite as much as a white man making a joke about 'blackey'. Just watch Dave Chappelle, or Richard Pryor to find out why.

It worries me when people try to pretend that things are so 'black and white', if you'll pardon the pun. Anselmo made a mistake, admit it. Giving anything close to a defence for this racist tirade looks really bad.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

I didn't say we did, but we do live in white culture, most television shows, movies and music is written and performed by white people. Most ceos are white, most tv presenters are white. most college professors would be white. how exactly are white people under attack, that they need to have pride? the world is ours, what we need is humility.

Karl Hungus

nij wrote:

Like I said, it's about humility. Like it or not, it's not a level playing field. "Whites" hold most of the power in western civilisation. White pride is a dangerous area to venture into. Black pride? Most blacks in America are African-American. It's more like 'African pride'. Nothing wrong with having a sense of pride about you ancestry (though I still don't fully understand where the 'pride' lies). It's like 'Irish pride', or 'Italian pride'. Pretty harmless.

Whites come from many different places. Some of us are Celts, others are Vikings/Norsemen, others are Saxons...and so on. The only unifying trait in whites, is the fact of being NOT BLACK, so I find the concept of 'White Pride' to be a little creepy. How can a Swede and an Italian get together and celebrate their 'whiteness'?? It doesn't make sense to me.

By your standards, black, or African pride is every bit as ridiculous as white, or European pride. Can you not see the glaring hypocrisy?

Africa is a huge continent, and there's a vast amount of different cultures, not all of which are black. Therefor black pride is not about African pride, because it excludes a lot of north African cultures, and black pride in America is not inclusive of say those of Morrocan descent. Indeed, the unifying trait is being not white.

Black people come from many different places too, and I don't think it's any more ridiculous for someone from Sweden and someone from Italy to get together and celebrate whiteness, any more than someone from the Zimbabwe and someone from Nigeria to get together and celebrate blackness.

nij wrote:

Blacks had to fight for their civil rights not so long ago, and not so much further back in history, there was a certain 'white power' movement going on in Europe.

Now there's a huge, huge difference between pride and power. I don't particularly think anyone will disagree when I say that white power is about proclaiming superiority of one's race, and there's no way that's a good thing. It's undenyably a terrible, terrible thing.

I don't find pride a necciserally bad thing, but power is a whole other kettle of fish, and I don't think it really comes into this thread. Anselmo isn't proclaiming white power, and he's not shouting about how white people are better than everyone else, so it shouldn't come into it.

nij wrote:

All racism should end. All of it. But I make no secret of the fact the a black man making a joke about 'whitey' doesn't bother me quite as much as a white man making a joke about 'blackey'. Just watch Dave Chappelle, or Richard Pryor to find out why.

You see, I don't find any racist jokes bothersome. Chappelle, Pryor, or even Chris Rock are all great comedians, and I appreciate and enjoy what they do. On the flipside, I don't flinch at racist jokes told by white people either.

I don't think racism can end if there's a double standard. You say it's not a level playing field, and I don't think it will be if one side is allowed to be racist, and another side isn't. That'll just breed resentment. Either it's all ok, or it's all not ok.

nij wrote:

It worries me when people try to pretend that things are so 'black and white', if you'll pardon the pun. Anselmo made a mistake, admit it. Giving anything close to a defence for this racist tirade looks really bad.

I'd actually disagree. It is very black and white. Or at least, in America it is, and I think that's what Anselmo is on about.

Let me explain. Drawing comparison between Italians and Swedes is a pretty valid point when you're talking about white pride in Europe, but America is vastly so a mish-mash of cultures. For white people in the US, there are no language and cultural barriers seperating them, and while the culture might be a bit different in the south from lets say New York, it's still largely homogenous, so I think it makes more sense for white pride in America than it would in Europe.

Likewise with black pride. People from the Dominican Republic for example, might not share anything in common with those from any Sub-Saharan African state, but in America, blacks all share a common culture and language, just like whites.

Undergod

nij wrote:

The only unifying trait in whites, is the fact of being NOT BLACK, so I find the concept of 'White Pride' to be a little creepy. How can a Swede and an Italian get together and celebrate their 'whiteness'?? It doesn't make sense to me.

I had a reply prepared, but Hungus beat me to it:

...someone from the Zimbabwe and someone from Nigeria to get together and celebrate blackness.

This notion of allowing discrimination in one direction to even things out is ridiculous.

nij

It's people's motivations that concern me. Like I said in a much earlier post, the words 'white pride' set off alarm bells for me, and many others.

Neither the white enslavement of Africans, nor the white settlement and apartheid in Africa is limited to any single African country, so there is a common ground to be found amongst blacks in America. It doesn't take a stretch to understand why THEY might feel proud that their ancestors overcame slavery and eventually established equal rights.

Now you're talking about 'European Pride'. There has been no unifying event or hardship that Europeans had to endure at the hands of somebody else. The only thing whites in America have in common is that their ancestors conquered the land and killed the natives and/or that they immigrated there. Where does this white pride come from? What's the driving force behind it?

I haven't seen one single case of somebody defending white pride where it hasn't been a vehicle in which to smuggle some underlying racist views.

And yeah, racist jokes bother me, as most of the time, they originated with occupation armies and powers. Where do you think Irish jokes came from? WE certainly didn't make them up.

Karl Hungus

nij wrote:

I haven't seen one single case of somebody defending white pride where it hasn't been a vehicle in which to smuggle some underlying racist views.

Forget the rest of what you're saying... Are you accusing me of being a racist here? Because I certainly take exception to that.

nij

No, just an objective observation that I've made from seeing this very subject discussed elsewhere on the web. Maybe you could once and for all clear up this whole white pride thing for people like me who don't understand it...?

Karl Hungus

nij wrote:

No, just an objective observation that I've made from seeing this very subject discussed elsewhere on the web.

Well it certainly seemed like an implication on your part.

nij wrote:

Maybe you could once and for all clear up this whole white pride thing for people like me who don't understand it...?

I don't particularly claim to understand it. I'm not here proclaiming white pride. What I'm saying is I don't particularly think it's nessicerally a wrong thing.

nij wrote:

It's people's motivations that concern me. Like I said in a much earlier post, the words 'white pride' set off alarm bells for me, and many others.

But then you're second guessing people's motivations. Why does someone who's proud of their race set off alarm bells? Why does pride have to mean hate for someone else?

nij wrote:

Neither the white enslavement of Africans, nor the white settlement and apartheid in Africa is limited to any single African country, so there is a common ground to be found amongst blacks in America. It doesn't take a stretch to understand why THEY might feel proud that their ancestors overcame slavery and eventually established equal rights.

Why do you believe they should feel proud? You're talking about people who have pride about what their forefathers did, and as you've already established, it's just an accident of birth to have been born into that lineage, isn't it?

nij wrote:

Now you're talking about 'European Pride'. There has been no unifying event or hardship that Europeans had to endure at the hands of somebody else.

Wow, way to completely miss the point.

I brought up the notion of European pride, because you said black pride was more like African pride. I'd say you're best off going back and re-reading the point.

However, as for unifying event or hardship? Are you honestly serious? How about 2 world wars that just about completely shook the foundations of every country in Europe? Catholic rule and the dark ages? The Black Plague!? Europe had plenty of shared tradgedies my friend, and you'd be silly to think otherwise.

Besides that, I don't believe any kind of hardship should be the basis for pride. So either way, it's spurious to think that a race has to have hardships to be proud.

nij wrote:

The only thing whites in America have in common is that their ancestors conquered the land and killed the natives and/or that they immigrated there.

Donkey's. America had vast amounts of white immigration since the natives were killed, so common ancestory does not share that.

If you want to suggest that the sins of the father should be inhereted by the son, then African and middle-eastern nations have been engaged in slavery long before white Europeans ever did, and still engaged in the practice longer after whites abolished it. So technically, black people have a much bigger history of slavery than white people. Why should they be proud? They enslaved their own people? According to wikipedia, in Niger, almost 8% of the population are currently slaves. You can read it for yourself here. So why should black people be proud of anything when they share this kind of legacy?

I think the fact is that accounts of slavery have been twisted and sensationalised by media, as if white people are the only ones who've ever engaged in slavery, when the reality is far from it. Who built the pyramids, for example?

Seriously... I think if we look at any country, or culture, or race, some atrocity has been commited in their history, and if we're judging them on past actions, then nobody's hands are free of blood. Likewise, nobody is free of some hardship. Japan got bombed the hell out of during WWII, but they committed some atrocities against China (Nanking massacre), and China invaded Tibet...

There's a lot to be ashamed of, in everyone's shared history, but I don't think that's a reason not to be proud. I think everyone should have a right to be proud of their race if they want.

nij wrote:

Where does this white pride come from? What's the driving force behind it?

Tribal instict? Same as other kinds of racial pride, I'd imagine.

It's not like people look at history and think "Hmm, yes, my people did some atrocity, I think I'll have some pride in that fact" I think it's just an instinctual feeling of kinship that's present in humans.

nij wrote:

And yeah, racist jokes bother me, as most of the time, they originated with occupation armies and powers. Where do you think Irish jokes came from? WE certainly didn't make them up.

So? Some of the most horrible Jewish jokes I've heard have come from Jewish people. Humour is just that, humour, it doesn't matter where it comes from.

nij

Let's keep in mind that we're talking primarily about America, as that's where Anselmo is from.

RE: White pride -

Why do you believe they should feel proud? You're talking about people who have pride about what their forefathers did, and as you've already established, it's just an accident of birth to have been born into that lineage, isn't it?

I made it clear earlier that I don't particularly understand having black/white pride based on the actions of one's ancestors. However, if you are going to anyway (if it does in fact make you proud), then I'd have to wonder what's going on in your head. In America, I'd be quite suspicious of one's real motivation for claiming WHITE pride, given American history (Native Americans, recent black civil rights movement etc...). What's the reason?

Your argument seems to be that white pride isn't intrinsically wrong. You may or may not be correct, but in practice, in the real world, 'white pride' is a symptom of something far more sinister. Don't pretend it isn't. BLACK pride, wouldn't ring my alarm bells so loudly, given what they've been through in recent history. Please tell me you can see my point.

However, as for unifying event or hardship? Are you honestly serious? How about 2 world wars that just about completely shook the foundations of every country in Europe? Catholic rule and the dark ages? The Black Plague!? Europe had plenty of shared tradgedies my friend, and you'd be silly to think otherwise.

Every civilisation goes through war and plagues. As for black/white race relations in America, the issue is more about what whites did to blacks (and others). Perhaps I chose my words poorly before. Also, to this day, Africa suffers immense poverty and disease. Perhaps a show of solidarity and respect is further motivation for their 'black pride'. I must say though, I haven't heard the words 'black pride' half as often as 'white pride'.

Again, it's all about the motivation for me, and while I, as an individualist, don't see the point of any sort of pride in what other people have done, I still realise that there are people who DO like to take that pride. So the real question for me becomes: Can I see anything in recent history the could possibly warrant such a stance, or could that stance possibly be a slap in the face for somebody else (or at the very least, scary and puzzling)?

j0e

I have been reading this thread with interest but some u said made me want to post

Your argument seems to be that white pride isn't intrinsically wrong. You may or may not be correct, but in practice, in the real world, 'white pride' is a symptom of something far more sinister. Don't pretend it isn't. BLACK pride, wouldn't ring my alarm bells so loudly,

basicly what your saying is, its ok for black people to be proud of who they are, but if white people do it they are evil/racist?

nij

Not only have you taken a single paragraph from a long post in a series of replies, but you've cut off the last two sentences, which would no doubt bring a little bit more clarity to what I said.

You MUST read ALL of my post, not just a little portion that you can bend and shape however you like.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

kill whitey!


--edit

and karl hungus

cournioni

I'm proud of who I am, I am white... Am I a racist? In nij's eyes I am... Even though I most certainly am not.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

are you proud of being white?

if you are, why? have you gone through any particular struggle because of your whiteness that has defined your life, or the lives of all white people in a world that is primarily run by non whites?

black on white racism is as stupid as white on black racism, or pink on yellow, yellow on green.. but white on black racism carries a hell of a stigma with it, and a deserving one. It wasn't black people that enslaved white ****ers from europe, dragged them over to africa and turned europe into a wartorn, ****ed up mess.

history matters,k.

cournioni

I am proud of who I am yes.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

way to answer the question

cournioni

No problem. Yes I am as proud of being white as blacks/asians/whatever are proud of their race. But apparently that makes me a racist, while the blacks/asians/whatever are good chaps for being proud of being their race. As Anselmo says "reverse discrimination is what it is".

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

they're not good chaps, they're just responding to a world in which the white man is in charge. deal with it. in a couple of hundred years, when the chinese have taken over *then* maybe it will be time for the white man to start feeling a little hard done by.

as it is, it's pretty offensive.

cournioni

Really? So multi million selling rap stars are responding to a world where the white man is in charge... Poor them...

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

yeah, all black people are multi million selling rap artists