Glasgow Transport 1980

murphaph

Three great youtube (not crap quality youtube!) clips totally half an hour about Glasgow's integrated transport plans back in the late 70's early 80's. They were light years ahead of us and sadly (even with their disjointed bus services) still are! Play them in order.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lIfubhHZDQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGeHgdMVujM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osLdmPaZjhs

Sadly this dated look at the past is leagues ahead of us.

A Dub in Glasgo

Fanatastic clips. I travel the Argyle Line every day to/from Glasgow Central Low Level.

The whole SPT rail network is really fantastic. Such an eye opener when I first moved here from Dublin.

John R

Interesting clips, the plummy voice-over was a real throwback.

The rail network in Glasgow is excellent, they have constantly improved it since those days, mainly with service improvements and new stations on existing passenger and freight lines.

It is interesting to note that in a few years there will be four seperate rail routes linking Glasgow and Edinburgh all with frequent services.

A Dub In Glasgow, maybe you can answer this for me; do SPT produce a set of bus maps for the region? I have looked on-line and apart from First Glasgow's diagram map for their own services I cannot find anything.

shltter

Interesting as well that as far as I can see the buses are all single front door loading a full 20 years before it started in Dublin and yet DB are berated here for the move to single door on a regular basis.

Slice

Why did Glasgow never extend it's underground network beyond the one circular line?

Prof_V

Slice wrote:

Why did Glasgow never extend it's underground network beyond the one circular line?

Bad geology is often given as the reason (having said that, there are an awful lot of existing and abandoned heavy rail tunnels in the city). I think I've also seen the extensive nature of the suburban heavy rail network cited. There's also the fact that, given the original line is circular, there's no "natural" way to extend it. The oddball nature of the system (narrow gauge, small-profile trains) might be a factor too; among other things, the small tunnels and short stations would limit capacity (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2003/12/18622/29905 suggests it can manage 4,095 passengers/hour/direction at 4-minute headways), it would be expensive to convert existing heavy rail lines, and of course there are the costs of custom-building.

However, it has been looked at repeatedly (and is being examined again at the moment).

murphaph

Even simple things like using common bus stops with SPT colours rather than a DB stop right beside a Dualway one etc. should be implemented here IMMEDIATELY. I also enjoy travelling in and around Glasgow, especially flying into Prestwick and taking the train to 'central'.

Why can I get on a bus in Glasgow and pay cash for an all day ticket which is just a normal ticket from the wayfarer machine that says "all day pass" instead of a single fare?

Why do I have to go a newsagent here in Dublin before I can avail of such a fare?

(I believe it has to do with the DoT setting pre-paid fares and DB setting cash fares. In any case, what a crock)

A Dub in Glasgo

John R wrote:

It is interesting to note that in a few years there will be four seperate rail routes linking Glasgow and Edinburgh all with frequent services.

2 of them electrified and 1 with a service every 15 minutes!

A Dub In Glasgow, maybe you can answer this for me; do SPT produce a set of bus maps for the region? I have looked on-line and apart from First Glasgow's diagram map for their own services I cannot find anything.

I have not seen any either although you could probably count the amount of times I get the bus in and around Glasgow on one hand.

Victor

murphaph wrote:

Even simple things like using common bus stops with SPT colours rather than a DB stop right beside a Dualway one etc. should be implemented here IMMEDIATELY.

The different bus stop is a useful indicator that there is choice, even if it is a premium service.

(I believe it has to do with the DoT setting pre-paid fares and DB setting cash fares. In any case, what a crock)

The other way around surely?

I'm not sure if that is the reason.

markpb

murphaph wrote:

Why can I get on a bus in Glasgow and pay cash for an all day ticket which is just a normal ticket from the wayfarer machine that says "all day pass" instead of a single fare?

They do the same in Belfast. It is a little slower than using a magstripe for the same purpose because the driver has to examine every ticket. Of course, with the reliability of our magstripe readers.... *beep, beep, beep*

OTK

Glasgow has a grid system of wide one-way streets (2-3 lanes) so road traffic moves fast compared to Dublin. Dwell times aren't such an issue as they are for slow moving buses in Dublin. A higher proportion of land space is devoted to roads and parking and there's a motorway cutting right through the middle of the city with flyovers, so it's great for driving but not so nice to walk around.

The circle line is poorly integrated with the radial lines and stations are often in quiet locations. It's a cute little system that's hard to expand but those who happen to work and live on the line are very fond of it. There's no rail connection between Central and Queen Street so cross city north-south connections are limited. Glasgow airport is not connected to the rail network despite having rail lines in close proximity.

The airport line now has funding but crossrail (the Glasgow interconnector-type project) is still under consideration.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

The different bus stop is a useful indicator that there is choice, even if it is a premium service.

Would you prefer every operator to have their own bus stops (a la Dublin) or common city owned stops with the numbers atop showing the choice of buses available (a la Glasgow/London etc.)?

Prof_V

OTK wrote:

The airport line now has funding but crossrail (the Glasgow interconnector-type project) is still under consideration.

I'd consider Glasgow Crossrail in its current incarnation to be more like the Phoenix Park Tunnel than the Interconnector, i.e. using an existing freight line to connect two passenger networks, though the civil engineering involved would be considerably more substantial. A north-south tunnel proposal has been floated periodically, though (on the inset in the bottom right-hand corner of http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2003/03/16875/20704, the tunnel is blue and Crossrail orange). One major problem with this, aside from the cost, was the lack of electrification into Queen Street High Level station, which would be the approximate northern end of any tunnel. However, it looks like this may change in the future.

OTK

you're right- crossrail is more like the phoenix park tunnel

A Dub in Glasgo

Prof_V wrote:

I'd consider Glasgow Crossrail in its current incarnation to be more like the Phoenix Park Tunnel than the Interconnector, i.e. using an existing freight line to connect two passenger networks, though the civil engineering involved would be considerably more substantial. A north-south tunnel proposal has been floated periodically, though (on the inset in the bottom right-hand corner of http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2003/03/16875/20704, the tunnel is blue and Crossrail orange). One major problem with this, aside from the cost, was the lack of electrification into Queen Street High Level station, which would be the approximate northern end of any tunnel. However, it looks like this may change in the future.

Very true, the Crossrail scheme has been talked about for ages now. I produced a feasibility signalling plan for it in 1994 not long after I came here.

The route is still there and in use by freight and some empty stock from Corkerhill Depot. It actually joins the North Clyde Line (Queen St low level is on this line) although you can get to the E&G line (Edinburgh & Glasgow) at Cowlairs.

A Dub in Glasgo

OTK wrote:

Glasgow has a grid system of wide one-way streets (2-3 lanes) so road traffic moves fast compared to Dublin. Dwell times aren't such an issue as they are for slow moving buses in Dublin. A higher proportion of land space is devoted to roads and parking and there's a motorway cutting right through the middle of the city with flyovers, so it's great for driving but not so nice to walk around.

The circle line is poorly integrated with the radial lines and stations are often in quiet locations. It's a cute little system that's hard to expand but those who happen to work and live on the line are very fond of it. There's no rail connection between Central and Queen Street so cross city north-south connections are limited. Glasgow airport is not connected to the rail network despite having rail lines in close proximity.

The airport line now has funding but crossrail (the Glasgow interconnector-type project) is still under consideration.

You are right about the road network in Glasgow. Idiotic planners in the 60's cleared a lot of central Glasgow to put a big motorway through it! They are going to do the same through east/south east suburbs with the M74 extension to join the M8.

The airport link has more than funding, prep work has actually started on the project

Prof_V

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Very true, the Crossrail scheme has been talked about for ages now. I produced a feasibility signalling plan for it in 1994 not long after I came here.

Interesting. It goes back at least to the 1970s, see http://www.jhowie.force9.co.uk/strathclyde.html (the "existing freight line from Shields Junction to High Street Junction").

The route is still there and in use by freight and some empty stock from Corkerhill Depot. It actually joins the North Clyde Line (Queen St low level is on this line) although you can get to the E&G line (Edinburgh & Glasgow) at Cowlairs.

Sorry, I meant the proposal for a new tunnel (which seems to have been called Crossrail at one stage) rather than the present Crossrail - the tunnel would have to connect with the E&G and the other lines out of Queen Street High Level.

murphaph

Well this thread went quiet a couple of years back and Dublin has made little progress "on the ground" so I'm wondering has Glasgow got any further along? Anybody familiar with it?

icdg

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Fanatastic clips. I travel the Argyle Line every day to/from Glasgow Central Low Level.

The whole SPT rail network is really fantastic. Such an eye opener when I first moved here from Dublin.

There's been a slight de-integration recently, in that SPT has had their responsiblity for trains - other than the Glasgow Subway - taken off them and assigned to the national agency, Transport Scotland. It doesn't make a difference operations-wise as they were operated by whoever happened to be operator of the ScotRail franchise (first BRB, then National Express, and now FirstGroup) anyway, but trains and stations in Scotland are being repainted from SPT and/or FirstGroup colours into a blue ScotRail livery.

Incidently, why do they call it the Subway? That's what Americans call such systems, but on this side of the Atlantic either Underground, Tube, or Metro tends to be used?

spacetweek

icdg wrote: »

Incidently, why do they call it the Subway? That's what Americans call such systems, but on this side of the Atlantic either Underground, Tube, or Metro tends to be used?

info
Because it's a very old line from the 19th century and there probably wasn't a strongly established noun for metros back then.

Incidentally, integration seems not to be the Subway's strong point; it appears from the map to cross radials 4 times but there are transfer stations on only 2 of them.