Should Alonso and Lewis Be Disqualified

thegoth

Let me start of by saying that I am a massive MS fan, but this in no way clouds what I say here.

Fact. If Mclaren are found guilty today of using top secret ferrari data in order to improve their car, then they will have been using an illegal car all season and therefore should have all constructors points earned with this car lost as well as fines ......

Now that it has been established that McLaren ran an illegal car all year, it follows that Lewis and Alonso also ran an illegal car all year, so what should happen to them ? I first I wasnt sure and didnt have an opinion, but something I heard Bernie say at the weekend made it very clear to me. I will expand the point he made.

Imagine is Super Aguri ran 3.5 Litre turbo engines producing say 1200 bhp, ground effect aerodynamics, and active suspension. The fact that they were running these illegal devices was not proven until 5 races to go. Davidson and Sato are leading the world championship when this fact is discovered. What would happen to them ? They would be disqualified from the worl championship for running an illegal car.

Now I ask the question, what should happen to Lewis and Alonso ? If not a disqualification then AT LEAST a points deduction of between 15-30 points as the fact the gains they enjoyed from McLarens illegal would not have been as great as what super aguri would have gained in the above example. But, if its proven that the drivers knew about and co operated in the use of Ferrari data, then I have little sympathy and I think a full DQ from the championship would be the right choice.

So based on what I have outlined above my opinion is

If Mclaren are found guilty then their drivers should be DQ from the championship or AT THE VERY LEAST have 15-30 points deducted from their championship totals. If the drivers co operated in the use of Ferrari data then they would be disqualified from the championship.

Please note, I am not a die hard ferrari fan. I am a die hard MS fan. The two are seperate, so I have no agenda here. I actually quiet like Renault, BMW, and Williams now a days

Opinions Please

animaX

I agree with what you say there but the fact of the matter is: This decision will (and probably must) be made from a business point of view and NOT a sporting point of view.

By that I mean, in terms of sporting behaviour, yes they should be punished heavily, but that would be suicide in terms of business. The FIA cannot afford to ban the world champion. The FIA cannot afford to ban Lewis Hamilton (how many new fans has he brought with him this year?! He has almost singlehandedly made the sport mainstream again, even RTE are showing it on the news now!).
And the FIA cannot afford to lose McLaren and Ron Dennis.

Personally, i would like to see a one (or two) race ban so that Ferrari could catch up and we would have the closest and best end to a season ever!

dor83

I agree with what you said, how can Mclaren have their championship taken away and their drivers be allowed to keep the points they got through using the illegal cars. Having said that I think it woul be very harsh on the drivers to disqualify them for something they didnt know anything about. I dont think it will happen either, I think Mclaren will get a fine and maybe a small points deduction but not enough to give Ferrari the championship coz that would bring down the number of TV viewers for the rest of the season and Bernie wont allow that.

thegoth

What I think should happen if McLaren are found guilty is:
DQ From championship
Drivers at least deducted points as they did enjoy an illegal advantage. Weather they new about it or not is irrelevant.

What I think will happen id McLaren are found guilty is:
DQ from championship or massive points deduction, but allowed to run in remaining races of 2007 and 2008
Drivers will have no points deduction.

I know its wrong, buy like ye said, thats business

Ghost Train

No I don't think the drivers should be punished. There's no clear way to see if the drivers have gained an advantage, or if they did, how much of an advantage. McLaren have challanged for the championship a few times in recent years, so the fact that this year they're leading, can't automatically be put down to the stepney info.

McLaren have not run an illegal car this year, the spec of the car has been within the rules technically, so not the same as saying if super aguri ran a 3.5L car, as that would clearly be outside the regulations. It hasn't been shown that Ferrari technology was used on the McLaren Car either, if its proved that it has, then maybe there is a case for looking at what advantage was gained. But for me if the car is technology wise within the regulations, it would be harsh to punish the drivers

Ferrari is said to have run with an illegal car in Australia this year(flexible floor thing) and there was no penalty given to team or driver... so unless its proved that McLaren have run a car with making use of Ferrari technical info givig them a clear advantage, I think it would be harsh to punish the drivers

thegoth

If they are found guilty today of using Ferrari data to help develop their car, then their car IS illegal as they will not have developed the entire car themselves. This is against the rules of the sport at the moment.

Doesnt matter if an advantage was gained are not. The same principles apply. Its like saying I broke into a garage hoping to find a BMW I could steal, but when I got in, there was no BMW there for me, therefore I should not be punished for breaking in!!

If McLaren did use Ferrari data, then thats a major breach of the rules. I would find it nearly impossible to believe they found absolulty nothing on the F2007 that they couldn't use, or either get ideas from, or improve reliablty from. This in turn helps the drivers by providing more speed illegally in the same way as a 3.5L turbo engine would or using illegal aero. Imagine is Honda used illegal aero in Jensons car for 6 months. Should he be allowed to keep his points even though he didnt know ? Fact is, if he didnt have the illegal aero, he would not have gotten the points in the first place.

By the looks of things, the McLaren drivers themselves were using Ferrari data to set up the McLaren. Believe me, they would not waste time at this unless they were gains to be made !!!

Ghost Train

Well if they can prove that the technical team at McLaren used the ferrari documents to help design the car, then it's fair enough that the team and drivers be punished. If a clear link, conclusive proof can't be shown that the car was developed with the aid of the ferrari documents, i think it would be harsh to punish the drivers.

Again you're saying if someone broke into a garage... I don't think this is a good example, given that stepney working for ferrari sent the info to McLaren, there's no breaking and entering, it's more like somebody giving you a gift of something... even though its a slightly dodgy gift. Unless McLaren went looking for the info, they shouldn't be punished for the stealing part at least... if they used info they shouldn't have, and it's conclusively proven, then it's fair enough to punish them for that.

thegoth

I agree with most of what you said but it seems that they did you the data as email converstaions between Alonso and De La Rosa show both drivers discussing detail the way Ferrari set up their car for different circuits. This information was passed to Mclaren by Stepheney who then seem to have made this available to its drivers. I


If the above is true, which eported, then both team and drivers deserve penalties. Thats all I'm saying. If only half the above is true or none is true at all, then thats different

Ghost Train

Well I hadn't thought too much about the emails or what they might show.

The problem for the fia is if they punish McLaren because of a Ferrari employees actions, can a team/employee in the future arrange to have technical details leaked to a rival team to land the rival team in trouble.

If these emails do prove McLaren had something like Ferrari setup info, how did Ferrari or the Fia find out about these email. Could Ferrari have transmitted this info to McLaren drivers through some other means(than through stepney), maybe setting McLaren up (no pun intended).

Will be interesting to see what happens today and if theres enough evidance to show McLaren don't deserve to be leading the championship... imagine if only one of the McLaren drivers was punished for not disclosing info or something... don't see it happening but would be an interesting twist

thegoth

Its possible that Stepney gave the setup info to the drivers. If thats true then it would be interesting to see who gets punished as the drivers are in clear breach of the rules and the drivers are employees of the team.

Most of the rumors suggest that the drivers and the eams engineers were using ferrari setup.

When you said "The problem for the fia is if they punish McLaren because of a Ferrari employees actions, can a team/employee in the future arrange to have technical details leaked to a rival team to land the rival team in trouble"

This already was addressed by the FIA and they choose not to punish McLaren as there was no evedence that the data was used, but at the time warned them that if evedence that they did use Ferrari data, they would be in serious trouble. Thats what the hearing is about today. E mail evedence that data Ferrari data was used nu Mclaren.

Alot of people are suggesting that Alonso actually leaked the e mails to the FIA so that he can leave McLaren due to a clause in his contact and join Toyota or Renault for next year. I personally that Alsonso is involved. Is plan as the nose on my face he is VERY unhappy at McLaren and wants out

leeroybrown

thegoth wrote:

Doesnt matter if an advantage was gained are not. The same principles apply. Its like saying I broke into a garage hoping to find a BMW I could steal, but when I got in, there was no BMW there for me, therefore I should not be punished for breaking in!!

Another poor analogy. In the above example you'd get done for B&E but the important thing is that you wouldn't get done for theft. Even then it's still too simplistic an example for a valid comparison.

As far as I'm concerned in F1 everyone cheats, spies and bends the rules in every way they can. I think that the manufacturers deduction and fine is disproportionately large and that unless it was reduced significantly I wouldn't like to see the drivers penalised also.

thegoth

No, its not.

Breaking and Entering to see if there is a BMW to steal = Looking at the data, as SEVERAL senior Mclaren employees did. Thats a fact. It wasn't just one rougue employee.

Not stealing the car = They found no data worth using.

Analogy = Valid

Oblomov

To date, there is no evidence in the public domain to substaniate any of your spurious allegation.

The finding will not be published until later today.

Your need to devalue the efforts of Hamilton and Alonso and maintain the hero worship of TGB leave much to be desired.

The ridiculous amount of imaginative scenarios would credit any hollywood spy thriller but without hard evidence.....

I, personally, would like to see the actual parts and the drawings that supposedly relate to the Ferrari drawings.

If this is purely over supposed tyre testing and precieved info, you can obtain that with a pit walk or just talking to the test drivers...... a chat with the tyre engineers, films of any testing... and that's without even photostating any documents.

leeroybrown

thegoth wrote:

Analogy = Valid

<Snip> Proper caffeine levels restored. It does appear to be a reasonable analogy on further inspection.

thegoth

Please explain why, in your opinion It's still a rubbish analogy.

I went to the trouble of explaining why its a good one

thegoth

Oblomov wrote:

The ridiculous amount of imaginative scenarios would credit any hollywood spy thriller but without hard evidence.....

.

Please explain. I have not got a clue what you are talking about.

All my posts above were POSSIBLE senarios .They were should happen IF questions for general comment, not facts I was stating. My senarios were based on media reports. I never once stated they were facts. Please read posts more carefully.

Note, I started the very first post on this thread with "If Mclaren are found guilty today ..."

thegoth

More interestly please please explain

"Your need to devalue the efforts of Hamilton and Alonso and maintain the hero worship of TGB leave much to be desired"

I never once said I didnt think they were good drivers on this thread. I actually think they are the two best drivers in F1 at the moment

leeroybrown

thegoth wrote:

Please explain why, in your opinion It's still a rubbish analogy.

I went to the trouble of explaining why its a good one

Apologies. I was over-tired and under-caffeinated and misread the intended point.

thegoth

No Problem

steviec

Alonso has now been proven to have knowingly cheated and used illegally stolen data to gain an advantage. If Stepney and Coughlan can never work in F1 again, I can't help wondering whether or not Alonso and de la Rosa should be joining them. If he wins the championship it will be one of the greatest travesties in the history of the sport.

As for Lewis, he should have been disqualified too. He benefitted from his team's cheating, although at least he personally seems to come out with his integrity intact. I'd consider a Hamilton championship the lesser of two evils, but really it should be Kimi Raikkonen and Felipe Massa fighting for this years championship as the two leading drivers who didn't get there thanks to a team that cheated their way to the top.

thegoth

Exactly. Dennis says that the team gained nothing from the data. This is the same Dennis who 10 days ago, was swearing to the entire planet the in no uncertain terms, that no other McLaren employee was even aware of the Ferrari data, never mind saw it. Looks like you forgot to mention expect for your CEO, Head test driver, Double world champion driver, Chief Designer. Thats what we know of and can be proven.

Cant help think of a criminal being charged with 50 robbies but only 5 can be proven. Are we to believe that the only McLaren people who saw Ferrari data are the ones the FIA can prove saw it? Come on. Loads of other people in the team had to know about and see this data, its just there is no evedence

heyjude

dor83 wrote:

I agree with what you said, how can Mclaren have their championship taken away and their drivers be allowed to keep the points they got through using the illegal cars. Having said that I think it woul be very harsh on the drivers to disqualify them for something they didnt know anything about. .

It reminds me a bit of the Olympic Games when Cian O'Connor was stripped of his gold medal because his horse failed a drug test. Now O'Connor didn't administer the drug to the horse, but without the horse he couldn't have won the gold medal. Alonso and Hamilton may not have known anything about what was going on, but if the information benefitted the team, then it benefitted them, so from the outside its hard to see why there was no sanction on the drivers.

Of course, Hamilton's emergence this year has reawakened interest in F1 especially in the UK and ITV would claim throughout the world, so maybe the FIA don't want to prevent the golden boy from having a chance to claim the crown(it would be bad for business and ratings).

You have to wonder though, if Jordan or Minardi were still around and were found with the technical specs of another team, whether their punishment would have been limited to constructors champion points. I doubt that Mercedes will lose too much sleep over it, I mean the general public might care about/know the world champion driver, but most non race fans might never have heard of the constructors championship and even F1 fans consider it a consolation prize(even if the teams themselves seem to take it seriously)

steviec

So it's now out in the open that not only was Alonso personally involved in the scandal and clearly guilty, but he also used it as a way to try and blackmail the team into giving him number 1 status.

Why hasn't he been sacked yet?

I'm still not sure if Ron Dennis was personally involved in any of this, I'm inclined to think he wasn't but surely, if he was truly the man of integrity he says he is, he wouldn't be allowing Alonso to still drive his car and fight for the championship after he's been proven guilty.

thegoth

I am inclned to agree as well.

Why isn't McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh getting slated about this instead of Ron Dennis. Martin Whitmarsh also said several times that McLaren didn't have or use McLaren data, but it appears that he personally sent Ferrari based drawings o the FIA for clarification !!!

Also, Mclaren Head of Engineering had the drawings as well as their lead test driver.

Think they should lay of Ron. Its starting to look like a Ron Dennis witch hunt

triple h

First of all i do not like what the FIA did to Mclaren.
Here are a few points i would like to point out.

1) Patrick Head ( on tv yesterday) said that all teams spy on each other.
2) Irish indo ( yesterday) said that Alonso blackmailed Ron Dennis (because he was not getting special treatment) by showing him the emails. So Ron went straight to the FIA and told them there was a problem. Ron Dennis is an honorable man i reckon.
3) Most people ( on internet blogs) are sure Ferrari set Mclaren up for this. i know not concrete, but .......
4) a ferrari guy gave a McLaren guy the info, i don't get this cause McLaren did not steal this info, it was given to them. Why should someone (McLaren) be punished for another's ( ferrari) stupidity. Just because someone is careless does not mean others should be punished.

I would love to see Ron pack up shop and move to the IRL. Let the FIA and Ferrari make love to each other.

thegoth

Triple h,

The FIA did not punish McLaren earlier in the season for having ferrari data. They are punishing them now for USING McLaren data and having SEVERAL employees analysing the data. At least McLarens CEO, Head of Engineering, Chief Designer, Lead test driver, and double world champion driver had access to this data. Thats why they were punished, not because ferrari gave a file to a McLaren employee

I know it goes on all the time in the sport, but so does drug taking in cycling, does that mean, when a cylcilist is caught taking drugs they are let go and not punished as it goes on all the time ?

I know Ron went straight to FIA but I think that Ron may have been afraid that Alonso would go to FIA first and that would look alot worse

"Most people ( on internet blogs) are sure Ferrari set Mclaren up for this. i know not concrete, but ......." - Didn't hear this from any souce. Link please ?

very risky thing for Ferrari to do, to give McLaren a "How to build an F2007 for dummies guide" as well as telling them when they are having pit stops ....

triple h

here was one link http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070913172443AAqcJmh

I read a few more, one i think was from a sky sports news letter i get by email and people gave their views.

triple h

But my answer to the OP's question is ---- No way should Alonso & Hamilton have been disqualified from the championship. In fact Mclaren should not have lost any team points at all.

thegoth

Thats just a link to Yahoo questions

Manic Moran

So it's now out in the open that not only was Alonso personally involved in the scandal and clearly guilty, but he also used it as a way to try and blackmail the team into giving him number 1 status.

Why hasn't he been sacked yet?

It seems that as far as Fernando knew, the usage of the Ferrari information was fair game going by the culture of the McLaren team (Short of Ron Dennis) given that many people were aware and were using the information in their deliberations.

As for the blackmail, that's just him playing hardball, and I can't blame him. Neither does James Allen, it seems. http://www.itv-f1.com/Feature.aspx?Type=James_Allen&PO_ID=40726

Honestly, he probably should be the number 1 driver, he certainly seems to be the better of the two this year.

Now, before anyone comes in saying "But Hamilton's outqualified/outraced Alonso" etc, I would point out that a driver's job is not to just drive six laps on Saturday and 200 miles on Sunday. Note that until two races ago, the two McLaren drivers were pretty close. In the last two races, Alonso's been leaving Hamilton a long way behind. Why? It's likely because he's been allowed to keep his testing and evaluation data to himself, instead of giving it to Hamilton to be used against him. He simply has a lot more experience as to what an F1 car can do, and how to translate that into information the engineers have. It's more because of him, not Lewis, that McLaren were able to take the fight to Ferrari this year.

This is something that McLaren have to keep in mind. For all those saying "McLaren should sack Alonso", note that even if Lewis is able to make better use of the car once it's been set up than any other driver in the field, he doesn't, so far, appear to be very good at setting it up in the first place. This will probably come with time, but he's not there yet.

As a result, whatever driver is partnering Lewis is going to have to either accept that his data is going to be used against him (eg Ralf or Fisi, who are likely desperate for rides right now), or that he's going to be in effect the primary driver (eg Massa or some such)

NTM

triple h

Manic Moran wrote:

. In the last two races, Alonso's been leaving Hamilton a long way behind. Why? It's likely because he's been allowed to keep his testing and evaluation data to himself, instead of giving it to Hamilton to be used against him.

NTM

You are probably right. We have no way of knowing if this is true, just yet, but it is most likely the case.
Hamilton is going to a race track in Japan and it is not only a new track to him ( in a F1 car) but it is new to everyone else. It will be interesting to see how he and Alonso do here. I reckon if Alonso blows him away in Japan ( and keeps the info of testing to himself) it will prove he is the better driver.

I reckon Alonso should stay at Mclaren. I read somewhere ( i am bad for reading this kind of stuff and not remembering where i read it) , i think it was the evening herald yesterday, i read that Alonso really wants to leave Mclaren so bad that he is willing to move to a lesser team and his manager was seeing coming out of the Red Bull garage.
If Alonso does want to leave, it is more likely due to the fact that he blackmailed Ron and feels strange walking around the Mclaren garage after costing the team the constructors championship.

Ghost Train

have been reports that alonso is paying his mechanics extra bonuses to beat lewis. I think one thing in hamiltons favour for the last races, is the way he performed for the north american races, he really seemed to thrive on the support he got there even though both tracks were new to him. Can imagine the support in asia being for hamilton, especially since alonso hasn't had much good press lately