New challenges for web developers?

Eoin

This is probably going to look like a pretty vague question, but I'm curious as to what other web developers see as the new challenges facing them in the external market.

I'm not really talking about standards compliance / accessibility, or that kind of stuff, more along the lines of all the open-source web applications that seem to be removing the need to create any applications from scratch.

I've briefly looked at some of the open source CMS apps, and most the ones I've seen look like what they are - a "skinned" application. Perhaps that's just my limited exposure to them though.

Have many developers found themselves doing a lot less development, and a lot more configuration? Do they perhaps spend as much time customising a web app as it could have taken to writing it from scratch and making it look a lot less generic?

Or is it a case of marketing a bespoke application better to your potential customer?

Bananna man

I haven't used many cms but i still reckon you get a lot more freedom when you do it yourself. The main parts are catered for well but then you get a request from your client to do something a little bit different and your screwed.

nellyshark

eoin_s wrote:

I'm not really talking about standards compliance / accessibility, or that kind of stuff, more along the lines of all the open-source web applications that seem to be removing the need to create any applications from scratch.

I've briefly looked at some of the open source CMS apps, and most the ones I've seen look like what they are - a "skinned" application. Perhaps that's just my limited exposure to them though.

Have many developers found themselves doing a lot less development, and a lot more configuration? Do they perhaps spend as much time customising a web app as it could have taken to writing it from scratch and making it look a lot less generic?

Or is it a case of marketing a bespoke application better to your potential customer?

It looks like more and more companies etc are going the open source road and want their open source apps designed to suit their needs.

I havent done a whole lot of commercial development but my own opinion is that Open Source apps are easier on the end user to use. For many companies with small or no IT its easier to change an existing Value e.g. database_1 to my_database_1 , than to create a system.

Answer got a bit muddled but what I believe is that developers will have to embrace the change.

[/confusion]

CoNfOuNd

In my opinion the popularity of the CMS route shouldn't be a challenge for any web developer. They can work with the new systems and there is no shortage of work. Small companies will tend to go for a skinned open source application as it has the benefits of being free software, with frequent updates, and not too much work to skin. There is plenty of money to be made working with CMS and even more from developing from scratch.

Eoin

CoNfOuNd wrote:

In my opinion the popularity of the CMS route shouldn't be a challenge for any web developer. They can work with the new systems and there is no shortage of work. Small companies will tend to go for a skinned open source application as it has the benefits of being free software, with frequent updates, and not too much work to skin. There is plenty of money to be made working with CMS and even more from developing from scratch.

CoNfOuNd, my question isn't if the CMS route is a challenge - but do other developers find it hard to determine the point where it's easier to start a new application from scratch, or to try and customise an open-source one; be it a CMS, eCommerce site etc.

The look and feel is one problem; looking at several osCommerce sites out there, a lot of them look very template-y.

Does this mean having a site that is designed exactly the way you want it, and a lot of work into skinning the application / settling for an online store that contains the site content / having an online store AND a separate content section that is designed the way you want it.

That's even before making any specific functionality changes which can be a major pain as Banana Man alluded to.

CoNfOuNd

It depends on the developers ability and the clients specification in every case?

Yes, in most cases osCommerce sites do look template-y, but I'd suggest that's because they've been put together by an amateur designer. There are some sites I've seen where I've had to be told they were using osCommerce as it wasn't obvious. osCommerce skinned-sites have the potential to look really smart.

For my personal sites when I have the option of coding something myself or using open-source software, I'll always try to do myself first. If it's for a client you really have to look at all options and then weigh up the pros and cons of each. Some clients will not require any special functionality and an out-of-the-box solution is fine, especially when they can add content and modules themselves.

Hellm0

Hey there,
Having worked in web development I can say with some suriety that this wont be a problem. Systems like Dotnetnuke etc are great out of the box for the small fry company who just wants to edit content, but for the bigger lads theres always the custom functionality that needs to be developed.

I personally embrace premade solutions as they make my job a hellof alot easier and more profitable. I can zip out a dotnetnuke site in a matter of hours/days depending on how fancy it is. That said I could do the same with an in-house solution or set of framework classes I've made but then whats the point? Alot of very intelligent people spend alot of time creating and updating these premades so why rock the boat:P I've acually been contacted by employers specifically due to the fact I have experiance in these systems(for module development).

That said I do prefer writing code into my own framework and I hate having to use architechture I might not 100% agree with but hell, I like making money too much not to use an open source solution which saves me time.

Laslo

Hellm0 wrote:

I like making money too much not to use an open source solution which saves me time.

Hmmm, I wonder if your clients see it like that. Personally I'm using open source solutions a lot more these days. Sure, they're not suitable for every project but I would say for most they are. Anyone who's still developing proprietary CMS's when they don't need to is doing their clients a serious disservice.

Hellm0

Laslo wrote:

Hmmm, I wonder if your clients see it like that.

They do:P Truth be told though the larger ones wont accept DNN and only accept the befuddled and annoying MCMS or whatever its newer incarnation is called. I'll do whatever the client wants so long as its sound technologically and I wouldnt be doing them a dis-service by selling them it(or myself a dis-service by accepting the work). It really depends on the job.

Laslo

Hellm0 wrote:

They do:P Truth be told though the larger ones wont accept DNN and only accept the befuddled and annoying MCMS or whatever its newer incarnation is called. I'll do whatever the client wants so long as its sound technologically and I wouldnt be doing them a dis-service by selling them it(or myself a dis-service by accepting the work). It really depends on the job.

I said you'd be doing your clients a disservice by providing them a proprietary CMS when an open source one will do. If your clients want a solution that doesn't suit, it's your job to persuade them otherwise. As a professional, you should be giving them good advice.

democrates

Laslo wrote:

Anyone who's still developing proprietary CMS's when they don't need to is doing their clients a serious disservice.

Have to agree there. That's not to say that no new CMS should be developed under a free software license such as Affero GPL. I'm doing just that and it's me who's paying the price in the revenue forgone during the long lead time, but it'll be worth it in the long run as the amount of innovation I need to do is extensive.

There's another challenge facing developers, and it's SaaS (software as a service). Google Apps and MS Live are gearing up to dominate the online application space with soup to nuts offerings, their frenetic building and aquisition of datacentres is like the cold war arms race. Even SAP and salesforce.com will eventually feel the earth shake, particulalry if deals with mobile phone companies lock smartphones to one or other platform (iPod and iTunes is an early warning of what may come).

In that scenario the main choice boils down to becoming either a google apps developer or an MS Live developer. If the factory method is applied as usual, the word developer will be replaced by administrator or operator as the push to yellow-pack all jobs continues. Though the specialist will usually outperform the generalist and genius will out, the higher the fewer.

Against that sorry vista is the other alternative, that the diversity and quality in the free software space means you can still provide better solutions faster, that legislation prevents devices from locking to certain vendors online apps etc so we have a fair chance to compete.

Another area of concern is our own hosting providers. Fair enough they don't want to be stuck in the cut-throat low margin hosting business alone and want to expand into more rewarding areas. But bundling applications with the hosting plan that lock customer data and competing with your own resellers is a delicate game. They too are under threat from big SaaS vendors.

It seems to me that independant hosting providers and web developers face the same major threat in big SaaS, and we can best meet it by co-operating on how we compete and what we provide. Get our area of the market streamlined. My impression is our local hosting providers see it this way too and are continuously upgrading their systems and are available for open dialogue with web developers.

I think independant web developers could also do with a formal association so we can organise better including representations to government on software patent policy in the EU. The IIA don't allow sole traders, the priorities there are different. There's an opportunity for some enterprising individuals looking for a challenge...

Hellm0

Laslo wrote:

I said you'd be doing your clients a disservice by providing them a proprietary CMS when an open source one will do. If your clients want a solution that doesn't suit, it's your job to persuade them otherwise. As a professional, you should be giving them good advice.

Sorry didnt catch that. I have attempted to change peoples mind about adopting open source solutions in the past and in the vast majority of cases I've come up against the same old chessnut answer that they just want to stick with microsoft products or something to that note. It depends on the company and in all honesty I've rather given up, I'll offer the best solution I can most times but some businesses dont embrace the OS philosophy as easily.

Laslo

Hellm0 wrote:

Sorry didnt catch that. I have attempted to change peoples mind about adopting open source solutions in the past and in the vast majority of cases I've come up against the same old chessnut answer that they just want to stick with microsoft products or something to that note. It depends on the company and in all honesty I've rather given up, I'll offer the best solution I can most times but some businesses dont embrace the OS philosophy as easily.

No, right enough. A lot of companies will insist on using Windows, which is fair enough. All I was saying is that if the option is available to you.

DemonOfTheFall

If they want to stick with MS stuff thats their choice. Why not another open source CMS like DotNetNuke?

Laslo

DemonOfTheFall wrote:

If they want to stick with MS stuff thats their choice.

Sometimes it's the better option. The open source movement isn't always right just because it say's it's right on. I find Windows an excellent platform to develop on (most of the time!)

The Corinthian

eoin_s wrote:

CoNfOuNd, my question isn't if the CMS route is a challenge - but do other developers find it hard to determine the point where it's easier to start a new application from scratch, or to try and customise an open-source one; be it a CMS, eCommerce site etc.

As CoNfOuNd points out it comes down to the requirements and specs of a project.

One of the problems with many Web developers (even commercial operations, not just the bottom feeders) is that they may be quite talented at the development side of things, but are pretty clueless where it comes to the rest. As a result, requirements gathering is a patchy affair, limited to informal conversation with the client, with no formal process, prototyping or deliverables documents. Clients are partially at fault too; many are not sure what they want to begin with, cannot communicate it and seldom ever bother to read whatever specifications document a developer will supply. Given this it is the responsibility of the developer (I use the term generically, as it does not specifically have to be the person doing the physical coding) to handle the client so as to properly extract and distill this understanding.

If done properly, you can make a choice on whether you can go down the road of a third-party (commercial or open source) product integration, or a bespoke development. Otherwise you will be going down the "square peg in a round hole" road as once development has already begun, it will become apparent that what the client expected differs from what the developer assumed. Therein lies a World of Pain.