all-Ireland DTT

flogen

I got talking to someone about this the other day and thought it would make for an interesting discussion here.

Before they went into Government the Green Party said they would like to see an all-island DTT service, with the same content available to both NI and Ireland. I think Minister Ryan may have stepped back from that somewhat now, although I'm pretty sure he still spoke about it in aspirational terms at some point recently.

What do people think about this idea? Is it just idealism?

To me it makes no sense. NI is obviously well on the road to DTT through Freeview and will be switching off analogue around the time an Irish equivalent is launched, by the looks of things. So that's the first hurdle - it would involve either changing the line up in the North (and losing channels they have) or adding RTE, TV3 etc. to it and Ireland otherwise relaying Freeview.

Secondly there are regulatory and rights issues. RTÉ in the North (afaik) needs to black out at certain times when it is showing programming it only has the Irish and not British rights to. If there was to be a standard across the island it would either mean:
a) channels being blacked out on certain parts of the island at certain times of the day, which defeats the purpose of it being unified
b) there to be a unified regulatory body with rights packages completely renegotiated for all channels involved... meaning RTÉ would be in direct competition with BBC NI and vice-versa and that BBC NI would not be able to show programmes available on BBC in the rest of the UK.

It would also mean that the BBC would either have to cease to exist in the North, compete on an all-island basis despite only being paid for by a fraction of the population or become an all-island PSB itself (which just wouldn't happen).

Does anyone else see how this could possibly be workable? Maybe I'm missing something!

Foggy43

All Ireland TV? I think not.

I think people here on boards.ie feel now that a national DTT roll out is not going to happen in the south unless the private sector take it on. Moderators have always said it was not on and beware the 'trial.'
The politicians do not have to do anything this term and as I understand it analogue tv transmissons DO NOT have to be switched off. Only a recomendation from EU as I see it. I am open to correction on this!

SPDUB

flogen wrote:

To me it makes no sense. NI is obviously well on the road to DTT through Freeview and will be switching off analogue around the time an Irish equivalent is launched, by the looks of things. So that's the first hurdle - it would involve either changing the line up in the North (and losing channels they have) or adding RTE, TV3 etc. to it and Ireland otherwise relaying Freeview.

Secondly there are regulatory and rights issues. RTÉ in the North (afaik) needs to black out at certain times when it is showing programming it only has the Irish and not British rights to. If there was to be a standard across the island it would either mean:
a) channels being blacked out on certain parts of the island at certain times of the day, which defeats the purpose of it being unified

Hasn't only one channel namely Channel 5 being bloody minded about rights especially Home and Away .Channel 4 and the BBC have never bothered to get RTE blocked and there is already precedent with the TG4 transmitter near DIVIS of intentionally broadcasting programmes in advance of UK transmission.

As for loosing channels I'm sure they would be howling at the lose of channels like Price Drop TV ,ABC1 (which is closing anyway) ,ideal world ,Bid Tv etc and the replacement with RTE1 etc

Foggy43

SPDUB! You mentioned TG4.

I suppose TG4 is not far from being an all Ireland station. Is it only available from Divis in the North?

SPDUB

Foggy43 wrote:

SPDUB! You mentioned TG4.

I suppose TG4 is not far from being an all Ireland station. Is it only available from Divis in the North?

As far as I know yes and I haven't heard of plans to extend it to other transmitters.

But even if it is only available from one transmitter the principle has been set that a station with Irish rights for a programme has intentionally broadcast them in a UK rights area

flogen

SPDUB wrote:

Hasn't only one channel namely Channel 5 being bloody minded about rights especially Home and Away .Channel 4 and the BBC have never bothered to get RTE blocked and there is already precedent with the TG4 transmitter near DIVIS of intentionally broadcasting programmes in advance of UK transmission.

As for loosing channels I'm sure they would be howling at the lose of channels like Price Drop TV ,ABC1 (which is closing anyway) ,ideal world ,Bid Tv etc and the replacement with RTE1 etc

The problem is that the likes of the BBC won't broadcast in Ireland unless they're getting well paid for it commercially (as they are with UPC and Sky) or by the tax payer via a licence fee. So either NI would have to lose the BBC, we'd have to start paying for it one way or another (via licence fee, sub fee or State coffers) or there would be two line-ups across the two markets, which isn't very all-island.

SPDUB

flogen wrote:

The problem is that the likes of the BBC won't broadcast in Ireland unless they're getting well paid for it commercially (as they are with UPC and Sky) or by the tax payer via a licence fee. So either NI would have to lose the BBC, we'd have to start paying for it one way or another (via licence fee, sub fee or State coffers) or there would be two line-ups across the two markets, which isn't very all-island.

Well the only people not paying for the BBC at the moment are the people who can pick up currently with a rooftop aerial or a FTA satellite system

If you watch it through UPC part of your cable fee goes to the BBC,If paying Sky it can be argued that part of your sub to Sky either goes to the BBC through SKY giving the BBC money directly or through foregoing getting a fee for EPG carriage ( I'm not sure what happens)

So people are for the most part already paying for the BBC and hammer that point home in a publicity campaign.

One proposal then would be to have a "BBC" licence that would be waived if you could prove you had a valid UPC or Sky subscription so that most people couldn't complain they are being charged twice

There is some solution if people put their mind to it and come up with imaginative ideas

watty

By EU law people picking up other countries FTA transmissions don't have to pay anything. It's only (re)broadcasters, even if deflector group that have to pay.

It's really very little money for a commercial cable company.


Don't forget you can't do something here that affects Benelux / France or Scandinavia or German/Austria/France or Slovak/Czech/Austria/Hungarian FTA terrestrial or satellite pickup.

This is absolutely not an Ireland / BBC issue. Brataslava apartment blocks have aerials picking up THREE countries as well as their own.

It isn't just Austria/Swiss/German that understand and receive all those free German satellite...


The BBC won't broadcast in Ireland at all, period. Like Netherlands and existing Irish cable/MMDS it is up to an Irish based distribution company to broadcast and pay the BBC, ITV, C4 and Five. It's not a problem as actually it's fairly cheap and a small cost of running the network. But if there is no commercial pay tv content making money, then no-one will run the network.

No-one thought they could compete with Sky & UPC, 7 years ago in Ireland on DTT. With UPC upgrading the network and current satellite base and now ITV, BBC and soon C4 FTA on satellite, DTT can only happen in Ireland if subsidised by Government. Or if someone does manage to get the licence on present terms, they will go bust.

To do this they needed to finance RTE back in 1997 or 1998 for a small network. Now they have missed the bus. Ultimately the Government, the taxpayer will have to fund this and there will be howls from UPC and SKy to EU because it will be unfair competition. The EU will be on the spot as without the unfair Government funding we will never have DTT.

I can see it maybe going to 2010 before this is resolved somehow.

maxg

There is no unfair competition.
Every DTT network in europe was paid via tax money and partly via EU money.
Sponsering directly into the pockets of comercial providers is not allowed, thats all.
In Berlin 3 commercial channels got tax money directly at their bank accounts and the EU didn't like that.

Antenna

Its a non-runner.

Suggestions that FTA DTT transmission of UK services in this country (subsidised by licence fee etc) is bound to run into massive opposition from the BCI, RTE, TV3. etc

Are there any examples elsewhere in Europe where a government was willing to subsidise a FTA DTT transmission of TV channels from a neighbouring country? I doubt it.

maxg

The target of any DTT network was to freeup frequency space and move analogue channels to DTT.
Channels which leak in across borders wasn't the target.
After builtup free capacity was leased to interested parties in some countries.

watty

There was always the idea that irish DTT would only have about 8 free channels and 22 pay TV including all the main UK terrestrial.

However that was when almost all MMDS was analogue, almost all cable was analogue and BBC was encrypted and ITV wasn't even on Satellite!

The Government could pay to roll out DTT and even for ITV/BBC (not much extra) but they don't have the will to fight UPC, Sky and RTE regarding BBC/ITV. RTE would be quite happy to roll it out but only if Government pays.

The issue is not Government paying for rollout with EU (the Gov has never wanted to spend the money) but Government pay for BBC/ITV to be FTA on it.
Without 10 Irish Channels and about 10 FTA UK channels no-one much will take up Irish DTT.

The two Dail channels already exist, just nowhere to broadcast them. They should have had them on Cable /MMDS and Satellite long since.

So even with MPEG4, and no HD there is a problem in having enough "real" payTv for a commercial company to roll out, which is why it has never happened. Now with RTE/DMCNR "HD lovein" there is even less pay TV space even if everything was was MPEG4.

So uultimately the situation is worse now to find private backer than in 2001 when "it's TV" unrealistic plan collapsed.

byte

I still believe many will take up DTT boxes, if only for the 2nd and 3rd TV sets around the house.

Dail channels, extra RTE channels etc, should be left as DTT exclusive, thus giving the platform channels unavailable elsewhere.

lawhec

If there were to be serious talks of an "All-Ireland" DTT network then discussions on this should have been taking place over a decade ago. It's far too late to even think of it now.

The mindset that DTT must act as a rival for any Pay-TV platform is nonsense. It must first and foremost be seen as a direct replacement for the analogue terrestial network. Even just for the four ATT channels there are some advantages, Anamorphic widescreen is easy to transmit, a clearer picture for the majority of viewers (for a small minority who are lucky enough to have perfect reception on 4:3 televisions, it can be the opposite but this number is small), a dedicated EPG, interactive services, multiple soundtracks etc. It's pretty much the same way as how DVD overtook VHS. The fact that compression of streams allow additional "channels" to be broadcast is the biggest bonus.

The Irish Republic faces a similar problem to that of Austria and Switzerland in that many cheap & cheerful channels broadcast from Germany are easily received and relayed via cable. As a result, building up an indeginious channel within its own borders is hard to do. There is no real genre for broadcasting in the Republic that isn't already being done by a UK broadcaster which is relayed either via satellite or cable, with the exception of providing a local service e.g. city channel. The options then for a UK style "Freeview" service is slim unless the BCI allowed UK content providers to be directly relayed under licence and that is not necessarily an ideal scenario.

IMHO the easiest way to get around this in the short term is simply to transmit a 1 Mux service from all main transmitters carrying RTÉ1, RTÉ2, TV3 and TG4 with MPEG2 streams. As I see it the benefits are as follows...

*Viewers can view widescreen versions of terrestial channels without having to pay a Pay-TV service.
* Many people are now buying LCD & Plasma TVs with built-in DTT tuners designed for the UK market. People would be upgrading without actually giving it much thought. People now go through a cycle of replacing their main televisions more often than in the past (think 405 to 625 line systems).
* Those whose televisions don't have built in tuners can get STBs for next to nothing. Tescos are selling STBs in the UK for €15 a pop and the likes of Argos for €30. Provided that the frequencies for a multiplex lie in the same group as current analogue transmissions, and the UK retailers start selling their STBs over here, cost of upgrading cannot really be used as an excuse.

The lack of UK terrestial channels as an excuse for not going forward is not a valid point IMHO. There are still hundreds of thousands of people whom rely on RTÉ, TG4 and TV3 (where available) for most if not all of their television viewing. Anyone desperate to get the BBC & ITV channels can get a cheap FTA satellite system nowadays and not have to rely on overspill or subscription to a Pay-TV platform.

Best to get the foot in the door with a small system in place where the broadcast and receive equiptment is already readily available but with the exception of trials and overspill has noting on it!

conax

ThisThis might interest anybody who has not already read it.

mrdtv

We have already discussed this elsewhere. It is a waste of time as the commercial fundamentals are not being addressed.

With the announcement yesterday (see itv.com) that ITV1 is being simulcast in HD , FTA, on Freesat and the launch of Freesat in the formal sense in 2008, together with the likely approval of BBC HD1 by the BBC trust later this month Irish DTT has lost its raison d'etre. Freesat will become the multichannel basic tier system of choice in Ireland. Fin du histoire.

Sorry guys but the politicians in Ireland are too dim to get it:

a) DTT is a replacement for ATT

b) If you can't find a funding mechanism, public, private or mixed its soooooooo over

c) Timing is everything. They have screwed that up in perfect style.

d) They have missed the proverbial boat

The agenda for digital broadcasting will now be controlled from the UK by Freesat, Sky and, to a lesser extent, by the cable providers. I would not be surprised if analogue terrestrial continued in Ireland for decades as a 'lifeline' service....

mrdtv

marclt

conax wrote:

ThisThis might interest anybody who has not already read it.

So according to this document Mt. Leinster will be broadcasting four mux on channels

39
42
45
49

42, 45 and 49 will also be used by Presely in west Wales, which effectively rules out the long range reception currently enjoyed by viewers particularly in Wexford of services from the UK! Of course this depends on how quickly Ireland can switch over to digital.

Do those planning the spectrum not think that reusing these signals might cause unacceptable levels of co-channel interference?

Foggy43

Hang on a minute! How come I knew this channel allocation well before I dicovered this website.
Didn't RTE plan this channel allocation before Comreg was even thought off and the analogue switch off even considered?

lawhec

mrdtv wrote:

The agenda for digital broadcasting will now be controlled from the UK by Freesat, Sky and, to a lesser extent, by the cable providers. I would not be surprised if analogue terrestrial continued in Ireland for decades as a 'lifeline' service....

The main UK electric retailers are now planning to phase out analogue only televisions...

http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/broadcasting/a75597/analogue-tv-sets-to-be-phased-out.html

...and if the UK market ends for it (and in the rest of western Europe to an extent) who's goning to manufacture the necessary PAL-I receivers? Its already hard to get a new VCR these days.

My guesstimation is that despite monumental f**kups in planning, they'll be no more analogue TV broadcasts in the Republic in 8 years time.

lawhec

marclt wrote:

So according to this document Mt. Leinster will be broadcasting four mux on channels

39
42
45
49

42, 45 and 49 will also be used by Presely in west Wales, which effectively rules out the long range reception currently enjoyed by viewers particularly in Wexford of services from the UK! Of course this depends on how quickly Ireland can switch over to digital.

Do those planning the spectrum not think that reusing these signals might cause unacceptable levels of co-channel interference?

After DSO switchover in Wales in 2009, the three public service muxs from Presely will be on channels 43, 46 & 50. Only the "commercial" multiplexes will be affected.

L1011

Foggy43 wrote:

Hang on a minute! How come I knew this channel allocation well before I dicovered this website.
Didn't RTE plan this channel allocation before Comreg was even thought off and the analogue switch off even considered?

IRTC + ITU-T set out a channel allocation for a 6 mux (main sites) 4 mux (relay) network in 1998! This is what Comreg are using.