Could you kill another person?

Archeron

Without going into the various reasons as to why you could ever have to make a horrible choice like this, do you think, if circumstances dictated that it was nessecary to do so, do you think you could ever kill another person?

Picture yourself in your most horrible of circumstances, and the opportunity to relieve yourself of terror, fear, whatver your imagination can portray. Could you pull the trigger or plunge the knife and live with it for the rest of your life?

Personally, I've said in another thread that I would kill a person if my family was in danger, but to be brutally honest, I just dont think I would be able to.

What about you?

Sleepy

Not a bother. Human life is over-valued.

TBH, I don't think I'd even need to be in a life or death situation to kill. I'd probably need a good reason to do it or feel that the person's actions had lead them to it but nyeh, "If I show up at your door, chances are you did something to bring me there."

magdalena

It all depends on the circumstances probably. We might say to each other we'd never be able to do it but in the face of danger might actually kill somebody. I always thought I'd never ever be able to do that but when you listen to the stories about WWII or stories from genocide in Africa when people killed to survive, it makes you wonder. Sometimes you're not even given a choice and react on impulse. You never know until you actually find yourslef in a situation where you have to make athat decision.
There's also euthanasia. Seeing my grandfather dying of cancer and my grandmother of Alzheimers really changed my opinion about that. The suffering is just unbearable.

Archeron

magdalena wrote:

It all depends on the circumstances probably. We might say to each other we'd never be able to do it but in the face of danger might actually kill somebody. I always thought I'd never ever be able to do that but when you listen to the stories about WWII or stories from genocide in Africa when people killed to survive, it makes you wonder. Sometimes you're not even given a choice and react on impulse. You never know until you actually find yourslef in a situation where you have to make athat decision.
There's also euthanasia. Seeing my grandfather dying of cancer and my grandmother of Alzheimers really changed my opinion about that. The suffering is just unbearable.

Thats a very interesting point. Would you consider euthanasia to be "killing" someone? I dont think I would, its more allowing them to slip into death. I dont really know on that one, as I hadnt considered that scenario.

magdalena

I don't think that enthanasia is murder but that seems to be a common view. A life in suffering is no life at all, especially when there's no hope for getting better.
I probably mentioned euthanasia because of of my own experiences and because I've watched 'The Sea Inside' again last weekend which is one of the best things I've ever seen. These kind of films stay in your head and make you think.

Ayla

In the scenario's created by the OP, I'd imagine just about everyone could kill if they had to to survive. I think that's human nature at its most basic and "animalistic"...kill or be killed.

I personally cannot imagine actually pulling a trigger or hitting someone with such force as to kill them, but I think that if my own physical person was seriously threatened and it came down between me or them, I think I'd surprise myself.

I'd like to think that I could hit them in such a place as to disable them but have them survive so the justice system could take over, but I have horrible aim and would count myself lucky if I got them at all. With that in mind I'd probably do whatever I could to ensure I got a clean hit...if that's in the head then so be it. If it's me or them, I choose me.

Fratton Fred

obviously unless I was in the situation I guess i would never know, but if I thought my family was in danger, I would like to think I could kill without a second thought.

Gillie

Definately!
Only if it was necessary of course!

Lucas10101

Self-Defence would make me kill...but there's a difference between killing and murder.

philologos

No I couldn't kill someone.

stovelid

Pointless to even guess unless you're in the situation.

aidan24326

Jakkass wrote:

No I couldn't kill someone.

When it boils down to it there are very few (if any) people who can't/won't kill when absolute push comes to absolute shove. If it's you or the other guy, and no other way out of it, the self-preservation instinct kicks in automatically and you do what you have to do.

Look at it this way Jakkass, you're held hostage in Iraq by some nice young men who are gonna remove your head with a butcher's knife very shortly. You telling me you wouldn't kill them to save yourself if that lucky chance arose? I'm pretty certain I'd blow their heads off in a heartbeat and there's not many wouldn't. Obviously that's an extreme example but it shows that we can't say no for definite.

Dave!

Some people consider life (human, of course -- self interest and all that...) to be so sacred that they'll try to convince themselves that there's no circumstances under which they would take one. When push comes to shove I think most people would be able to do it. I'd say squeamishness is the main factor that would cause them to hesitate.

I would kill someone if I knew for a fact they were going to kill someone else, or if they were even harming my family.

easyontheeye

when comes down a situation were its you or him and you aint being allowed to walk away and theres a high probability hes out to kill you....what you gonna do ? (rule out the posibility that your trained enough to restrain the person)

irish_bob

not sure i have the steel or the guts to kill someone but in a scenario like someone was robbing my house and threatning my family , perhaps i would
some people deserve to die because there is so little justice in the world and you can rarely trust the state to act in a just way

Deliverance

Archeron wrote:

Without going into the various reasons as to why you could ever have to make a horrible choice like this, do you think, if circumstances dictated that it was nessecary to do so, do you think you could ever kill another person?

Picture yourself in your most horrible of circumstances, and the opportunity to relieve yourself of terror, fear, whatver your imagination can portray. Could you pull the trigger or plunge the knife and live with it for the rest of your life?

Personally, I've said in another thread that I would kill a person if my family was in danger, but to be brutally honest, I just dont think I would be able to.

What about you?

In a heartbeat I would end the life of a person who was in a position to do the same to myself or a member of my family.

The only issue I would have afterwards would be how to dispose of the evidence. There is no court case for murder without a body (Corpus delicti).

The killing would not be the hard part under such circumstances, the disposal would be another matter. So yes if anyone threatened me or my family in a mortal way then survival instinct would kick in and I would kill.

Oh and I wouldn't regret it or dwell on it either as I would have made the right decision. Saying that it would not be a position that I would like to be put in.

liberty 2007

so far, have'nt felt the need, but who knows what the future holds

Borneo Fnctn

I'd never done a crazy thing in my life until that night. Why is it, if a man kills another man in battle it's called heroic, yet if he kills him in the heat of passion its called murder.

passive

Pfft... Two steps ahead of this thread.

GuanYin

Yup, purely for humanitarian reasons though.....

Anto McC

I think i could, When i think of certain people, they evoke feelings in me so strong that i actually feel like killing them. What stops me is the thought of getting caught and spending time in jail for doing it. If there was a way of doing it without being caught,it'd already been done.

Borneo Fnctn

Did you know that if you kill a man in the dead of winter you can see steam rising out of him? The Indians though it was your soul escaping.

Borneo Fnctn

Anto McC wrote:

I think i could, When i think of certain people, they evoke feelings in me so strong that i actually feel like killing them. What stops me is the thought of getting caught and spending time in jail for doing it. If there was a way of doing it without being caught,i'd already been done.

Yeah I know what you'd like to do. You'd like to find the guy who did it, rip his still beating heart out of his chest and hold it in front of his face so he can see how black it is before he dies.

nacho libre

kill or be killed? its fairly straightforward in that situation.

not so if a family member was killed by a paedophile and you got to him/her before the police did.

monkey tennis

Yes, and I think most people could if they had to. Bear in mind that people kill other people other every minute of every day for trivial reasons.

jackpalance wrote:

Did you know that if you kill a man in the dead of winter you can see steam rising out of him? The Indians though it was your soul escaping.

If you stabbed him, maybe. What if you poisoned him?

philologos

aidan24326 wrote:

Look at it this way Jakkass, you're held hostage in Iraq by some nice young men who are gonna remove your head with a butcher's knife very shortly. You telling me you wouldn't kill them to save yourself if that lucky chance arose? I'm pretty certain I'd blow their heads off in a heartbeat and there's not many wouldn't. Obviously that's an extreme example but it shows that we can't say no for definite.

I suppose, that is a terrible circumstance to think about. How about this one just to shift the topic abit. If a group of people were being kept hostage with you and the terrorists said that they would spare the whole group if one person gave his / her life. Would you do it? I'm not so sure I could.

Dave!

That's quite a different topic...

Isn't that what Jesus did, though?

philologos

DaveMcG wrote:

That's quite a different topic...

Isn't that what Jesus did, though?

Indeed it is, as much as I would want to imitate His actions if possible. I don't know if I could pluck up the courage given the time to do this. I could only know if I was in that situation.

Asiaprod

If the situation had got to that point, I would not think twice. Nor would I regret doing it, but I would regret the waste of a human life.

aidan24326

Jakkass wrote:

I suppose, that is a terrible circumstance to think about. How about this one just to shift the topic abit. If a group of people were being kept hostage with you and the terrorists said that they would spare the whole group if one person gave his / her life. Would you do it? I'm not so sure I could.

No I don't think I would. Keeping the others alive would be little use to me once I'm dead, especially people I didn't know or care about much.

I agree with asiaprod that there'd be no point regretting the kill afterwards either, if it was done in a situation where you were left with no choice.

But a better way to look at it is rather than sacrificing yourself to save the group, what if you were offered the chance to save yourself if you'd agree to kill an innocent person/hostage to secure your own release? That's where it gets really tricky. It would be interesting to see what people would do there, most would say no way, but you'd wonder.
But

Zulu

Yes to both the questions.
1) Kill another - no problem, but I wouldn't fancy having to do it with a hammer, or such. A gun, from a distance would be far more palatable.

2) Give my life for others, again if there was a gun involved it would be an easier choice, but I'd like to think I would - meek out a long esistance with guilt or die a heroic death?

I'd be far more more sure about my ability to kill, that my heroic bravery though.

the_syco

Depends on my relation to that person.

Killing a family or friend so that I'd survive would be harder than killing some random scumbag that scratched my car.

DarkJager

Same as the Syco. Any random scumbag who does me wrong, I'd have no problem killing them if I could get away with it.

Family, no chance.

trilo

There have been one or two times where i have wanted to kill someone, because of hurt they caused or my own anger but i obviously didn't as they are still alive.

What stops us/me from doing it..
..Social Consceince (sp)
...Moral beliefs
.. acceptable learned behaviour for living in Society
... the knowledge and belief from right or wrong
... the consequences of doing it

There are probably many psychological/sociological factors are to why the majority of people do not kill, probably would make for interesting reading. Freud would definately have some involvement there with his theories on the ID, Ego and the Superego.

aidan24326

trilo wrote:

There are probably many psychological/sociological factors are to why the majority of people do not kill, probably would make for interesting reading. Freud would definately have some involvement there with his theories on the ID, Ego and the Superego.

Well most people don't fancy spending the next 20 years in jail (or more in some countries), so that's a good reason for a start. Empathy would come into it aswell, we don't want to harm someone else if possible.

But the OP only asked if people could kill at all fullstop, whatever the circumstances. Thankfully most people will not kill another person unless in dire circumstances where they're faced with no other option. One of the things armies do is train the soldiers to have an emotional detachment from the act of killing, effectively turning them into programmed automatons.

ambro25

Yes.

Came close to it a long time ago, as a case of legitimate defense (was being shot at / shot back - I'm quick to add noone was injured, thankfully).

So, from experience - it is a question, to which no sane person can reply with any degree of certainty, however much they may mean/believe in their reply, unless and until the person is in the situation that calls for it.

As and when such a situation happens, then it's classical fight-or-fly and there's no way you would know which way you'd go in advance - it turns entirely on the circumstances.

ScouseMouse

Any man that touchs a child - doesnt deserve to live.

A father of a four year old.

Get my drift?

gingerGiant

It depends on the situation but in a me or them situation i would have no hesitation, also if those unfortunate children in Limerick who got firebombed in their car were mine, the scumbags who done it would not be alive today and I would not give a f*ck about doing the jail time.

My family would come before any random scumbags life.

Wacker

Jakkass wrote:

I suppose, that is a terrible circumstance to think about. How about this one just to shift the topic abit. If a group of people were being kept hostage with you and the terrorists said that they would spare the whole group if one person gave his / her life. Would you do it? I'm not so sure I could.

I honestly believe I would shoot my hand up without one second's hesitation. I don't wish to sound heroic here or anything, as that would not be my reasoning. More that I have never felt emotional about the idea of dying, as the whole process is ineivitable anyway. Also, my thinking in that instance would be that we're all already dead, and this is one way of saving a bunch of lives.

As to killing someone, I am also certain that I could do so. Not for the reasons most commonly mentioned above though. In fact, there was an incident with a family member of mine which would definately have some of the posters above reaching for a Colt Python and a shovel (PM me and I'll tell you all about it), but I didn't get vengeful in any way. I am certain that if I were in a war that I could obey an order to kill an enemy combatant. I could also give the same order.

WindSock

I think most people think they wouldnt, but give them a gun + rage and I bet they will be easily shocked.

JC 2K3

DaveMcG wrote:

That's quite a different topic...

Isn't that what Jesus did, though?

God is a terrorist now?

Dave!

Well the old testament would suggest that yes he is indeed...

But I was of course referring to the story that everybody's soul was fooked until Jesus came along and was crucified so that the gates of heaven would be opened and everybody would be saved. It was the self-sacrifice aspect that I was referring to.

Markspi

Yes i could but circumstances would be the issue .
But then again who here can say they can unless they are in the situation.

You can put a gun in anyones hand but can they pull the trigger

TM_Ryden

What would the term be for someone who doesn't think that they could take another human's life? I really don't think i could ever intentionally kill someone else. Heh-- and I'm a U.S. Marine. I brought the subject up to my seniors, and they're trying to say I'm a conscientious objector. But I'm not exactly against participating in military service. And I'm not a pacifist either. I believe in war. I do think that for most cases there are peaceful ways to resolve problems between nations, but how else would America have become what it is today without the Revolutionary War, for example. War is a necessity in some or even most cases. Anyhoo, my point being, no. I don't believe I could kill another person. If there is a more concise term that matches the definition (other than conscientious objector or pacifist), please enlighten me.

I think it depends on how much time you have to consider what you're doing.

If its a quick decision, I'd say that instinct will take over and I'd go ahead with it, if I felt instinctively that it was my only option or the one with the least negative consequences at that time.

If i had time to think about it I'd find another way. I'm not violent in any real way, so, no killing someone wouldn't really interest me as an answer.

Actions of passion being totally out of this, of course. I picked depends on circumstances

seahorse

I think murder is generally accepted to be the worst thing you can do to a person, unsurprisingly, as you are literally stealing their life. I think if I were to commit murder I would never recover from it, in a spiritual sense. I think I would feel I had sullied myself spiritually in a way that was impossible to ever cleanse or remove or make good. All that said, I am sorry to say I know I'd be fully well capable of it. If it came down to a choice between my son and somebody else you'd may as well just call the paddy wagon cause I'd be mountjoy-bound, and I think most parents could say the same.

SAHD

Archeron wrote:

Personally, I've said in another thread that I would kill a person if my family was in danger, but to be brutally honest, I just dont think I would be able to.

What about you?

If my family especially my children are in serious danger ? Yes, no doubt !

Manic Moran

I've certainly tried. No idea if I hit anyone. I have ordered someone killed, and seen the results up close. There was absolutely no emotion beyond a thought of "Bloody shame", more an analytical sort of "Interesting how the 7.62mm eviscerated him."

An excellent (and admittedly probably because it's about the only one) book on the subject is "On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society " by a chap named Dave Grossman,
(http://www.amazon.com/Killing-Psychological-Cost-Learning-Society/dp/0316330116) who specifically analyses what it takes for a 'normal' human to overcome his natural reluctance to kill another person, and how aftereffects are determined.

The fact that one can realise that any killing is such a senseless waste does not, however, inhibit one from doing so if the circumstances so dictate. As a result, if I ever have to shoot at someone again, if they survive, so much the better. If they didn't, well, I guess they should have left me alone.

If a group of people were being kept hostage with you and the terrorists said that they would spare the whole group if one person gave his / her life. Would you do it? I'm not so sure I could

Not per se. I wouldn't just sit there and say "OK, go and shoot me." I'd go out fighting. If I get killed anyway, I'm certainly no worse off, you never know, there might actually be the chance we'd win, especially if the other hostages chucked their piece in.

NTM

Manic Moran

I brought the subject up to my seniors, and they're trying to say I'm a conscientious objector. But I'm not exactly against participating in military service

Your seniors are correct.

Look up Desmond Doss and Thomas Bennett. They were both Conscientious Objectors who were awarded Medals of Honor during their military service. They refused to take up arms and as a result became unarmed medics. (Medics are usually authorised a rifle or sidearm for defense).

Indeed, in Vietnam, probably following from Doss's WWII example in Okinawa, the Army set up a system whereby there were two categories of CO, one of which was "CO willing to serve", and there were a fair few COs who wore the Army uniform. In your case, turning medic might be a bit difficult as it would require going from Marine to Navy.

As an interesting aside, I spoke with a chaplain who partook of the invasion of Iraq, he told me that when the fighting got particularly bad, more than one chaplain picked up a rifle from a fallen soldier, and shot back.

NTM

TheMilkyPirate

Manic Moran wrote:

I've certainly tried. No idea if I hit anyone. I have ordered someone killed, and seen the results up close. There was absolutely no emotion beyond a thought of "Bloody shame", more an analytical sort of

Can i ask about the story behind this??

Manic Moran

baraca wrote:

Can i ask about the story behind this??

All events were in Iraq, we had a number of firefights throughout the year. The vast majority I was in a tank, and so somewhat isolated from my actions: You don't feel as connected to reality when you're looking at a TV screen or a telescope, even though you know quite well that the guy you're looking at is actually 100m away and yes, that is an RPG in his hands.

The short story of the guy who was killed is that I was an officer in charge of a tank platoon, and I felt it appropriate to instruct one of my tank commanders to engage the individual. If you want the full version, I can PM. Unlike other instances, it was safe enough afterwards for us to drive up. The medics couldn't do anything for him, and, probably more out of curiousity than anything else, I walked up to the body whilst the troops were fishing out a body bag. The 'Bloody shame' came from the fact that I acknowledged that for thirty plus years (He looked early thirties) he had people who loved him spend all that time and nurturing, only for his life to be ended for so little gain.

He was not the only person my platoon killed, but was the only one I know of for sure in which I played any particular part.

NTM