strategy discussion... med PP's facing 3 bet

Macspower

After a chat with Roadsweeper yesterday we were discussing the following..... you have a med pp from 77-JJ and raise from the C/O or mid position and the button 3 bets... I know a lot will say "it depends" which I''m sure it does... but take the villan as a tag 22/14 that hasn't been getting out of shape but has 3 bet quite a bit..

Preflop:

1) do we call for set value? if so how much does he need to have to make this move worthwhile?

2) do we 4 bet... what's our critera for this?

3)do we fold... again under what circumstances or how often?

Post flop.

1) say we call as in 1 above. the flop comes high cards our move.... if we check he c-bets almost every flop we have to fold right?
But what if the flop comes rags and it's our move... do we lead check/raise or check call or check fold..

If we lead or cc whats the move on the turn?

2) If we 4 bet and he calls do we c-bet any flop? do we fold to pressure on a rag flop?

opinions on the above or anything else I should be considering..

I'll give my own opinions later just trying to ge thte discussion on the way

Mac

RedJoker

If I suspect that villain is 3 betting light or at least capable of 3 betting light in this spot then:

1) we can't play for set value, we don't have any. (Assuming normal 3 bet size)

2) I don't really like 4 betting in this spot (but may do it with jacks). Don't think we can call a 5 bet (depending on our 4 bet size) and if villain decides to smooth call we're in a very awkward spot postflop.

3) I think this is the best option.

Besides folding I think the next best option is to call and c/r shove the cbet on dry boards or if we hit our set. If villain decides not to cbet I think it puts us in a weird situation, if the board is fairly dry I might lead and assume my hand is good.

Most of the time I fold in this spot.

meathman 007

ok, heres a hand i played yesterday - not particularly happy with how i played it, but i suppose it adds a decent example to this topic - ok villain has been playing very aggresively. I think the hand highlights the dangers of not defining my hand by not reraising pre and post flop.

Paddy Power "TURBO" Montezuma 1/2, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | saw showdown

Button ludisdk ($53)
SB RakIsUnderAttack ($204.60)
BB Feldhase7 ($196)
UTG Hero ($335.45)
UTG+1 Nova19 ($339.75)
CO MrBabelina ($207.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9 9
Hero raises to 7, 1 fold, MrBabelina raises to 24, 3 folds, Hero calls 17.

Flop (51) 4 7 2
Hero checks, MrBabelina bets 36, Hero calls 36.

Turn (123) 2
Hero bets 65, MrBabelina raises to 147.05, Hero calls 82.05.

River (417.10) K

MrBabelina shows A A
Hero shows 9 9

MrBabelina wins 417.10 with Two pair, Ace's and Two's with a King for a kicker

pok3rplaya

dude you left out probably the most vital piece of info: stack sizes. Assuming you mean with 100bb stacks...

1) This is a simple stack size question using your 10x rule or 12x or whatever (I prefer 12x). Some things to note: As your pair gets higher the TP value of your hand increaces and we can call a little shorter. If he widens his 3betting range our implied odds reduce. If he widens his 3betting range our bluffing chances get better.

2) Hands with good equity versus his calling range. ie. even though 55 and AK are 50/50 preflop I'd rather 4bet AK (I think this is right, don't have pokerstove here). One other thing is that there are 6 combos of AA and KK (6+6=12) and 16 combos of AK. So if you 4bet with all of them it disguises your range quite nicely. As stacks get deeper it's possible we should tend towards not 4betting AK so much and 4betting AA/KK more. Don't quote me on that point though. The more we get 3bet the more we 4bet and vice versa obv.

3) see 1)

post:

1) in the situation you present, given 100bb stacks I think there is a strong case to be made for folding JJ preflop OOP.

2) You need to be way more specific here. I mean, do we have JJ or 77. Whats the stacks? Also se 1)

ianmc38

meathman 007 wrote:

ok, heres a hand i played yesterday - not particularly happy with how i played it, but i suppose it adds a decent example to this topic - ok villain has been playing very aggresively. I think the hand highlights the dangers of not defining my hand by not reraising pre and post flop.

Paddy Power "TURBO" Montezuma 1/2, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop | saw showdown

Button ludisdk ($53)
SB RakIsUnderAttack ($204.60)
BB Feldhase7 ($196)
UTG Hero ($335.45)
UTG+1 Nova19 ($339.75)
CO MrBabelina ($207.05)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9 9
Hero raises to 7, 1 fold, MrBabelina raises to 24, 3 folds, Hero calls 17.

Flop (51) 4 7 2
Hero checks, MrBabelina bets 36, Hero calls 36.

Turn (123) 2
Hero bets 65, MrBabelina raises to 147.05, Hero calls 82.05.

River (417.10) K

MrBabelina shows A A
Hero shows 9 9

MrBabelina wins 417.10 with Two pair, Ace's and Two's with a King for a kicker

shudder

pok3rplaya

in the hand:

pf you raised UTG so he knows you are strong. Therefore his reraise means strength. You should fold because of this fact ands the fact that you have no set value (shallow stacks). Reraising would be worse then calling because your hand doesnt do well against his range.

the flop is a difficult situation that arrises often. Thankfully it's one that can be avoided by folding pre. I think you should fold/ Someone put this in pokerstove with a range of AQ+, TT+ for the villan plz.

Turn: only hands tha tbeat you call/raise this bet.

meathman 007

ianmc38 wrote:

shudder

yea horrific is how id describe it - last time i play for 6 hours straight

pok3rplaya

ianmc makes a good point also ha

Macspower

your right of course . Assuming 100 bb stacks and were holding 10 10

meathman 007

pok3rplaya wrote:

in the hand:

pf you raised UTG so he knows you are strong. Therefore his reraise means strength. You should fold because of this fact ands the fact that you have no set value (shallow stacks). Reraising would be worse then calling because your hand doesnt do well against his range.

the flop is a difficult situation that arrises often. Thankfully it's one that can be avoided by folding pre. I think you should fold/ Someone put this in pokerstove with a range of AQ+, TT+ for the villan plz.

Turn: only hands tha tbeat you call/raise this bet.

yea i agree - i have folded a few times this morning in a similar scenario - what kind of stack sizes in that situation are required to make it a good call pre-flop?

pok3rplaya

with 100bbs I think we're AI on almost any flop. But we shouldn't end up in this situation I don't think because we shopuldn't 4bet TT.

Macspower

meathman 007 wrote:

yea i agree - i have folded a few times this morning in a similar scenario - what kind of stack sizes in that situation are required to make it a good call pre-flop?

I normall use the 10x rule but more is preferable

meathman 007

Macspower wrote:

I normall use the 10x rule but more is preferable

Can you elaborate on the 10x rule - for example in the spot above, exactly how deep should myself and the villain be?

pok3rplaya

meathman 007 wrote:

yea i agree - i have folded a few times this morning in a similar scenario - what kind of stack sizes in that situation are required to make it a good call pre-flop?

I'd like 230/250+. That may be a touch conservativer though considering his narrow range.

pok3rplaya

which is like 12x/13x-ish. It just means he should have 17 times 12 left in his stack for you to make the call.

RedJoker

meathman 007 wrote:

yea i agree - i have folded a few times this morning in a similar scenario - what kind of stack sizes in that situation are required to make it a good call pre-flop?

It depends on what villain's range is. In the hand you posted it's very unlikely that villain is 3 betting light. In this case we can assume that if we hit our set we are likely to get his stack. You're 8 to 1 to flop a set so just for comfort (and profit) we assume that we need to get 10 to 1 or more implied odds.

In the situation this thread is discussing, we are in the CO and have a wide stealing range. Villain is on the button and is capable of 3 betting light. In this situation we cannot assume we'll get villain's stack if we hit, the most we can assume to get is a continuation bet.

meathman 007

pok3rplaya wrote:

which is like 12x/13x-ish. It just means he should have 17 times 12 left in his stack for you to make the call.

thx

Macspower

my own feelings on the above situations..

1) if we are deep I call for set value ie 10x rule but as stated i prefer more

2) I only 4 bet all in here when the villan is short or if I have a concrete read

3) I normally fold in this situation if 100bb's deep


If I call and miss the flop i normally give up... sometimes I float the flop depending if he makes it cheap enough and I'll give up the turn to another bet... it's normally set it or forget it if i'm calling

If it's one of the situations (very rare) when i 4 bet preflop I will always lead the flop but this is rare with mid PP


One more question... how would you adjust play if you have position as in your an active button player and the blinds 3 bet you?

mrflash

Against a Tag player, you have to check/call postflop, and check/fold turn if he fires again. From reading your posts on here over the last few months i am surprised to see you fall down here, but as you say it was six hours play which is far too much without a decent break imo. Thats what i hate about the sunday million and other tourneys like it.

Macspower

mrflash wrote:

Against a Tag player, you have to check/call postflop, and check/fold turn if he fires again. From reading your posts on here over the last few months i am surprised to see you fall down here, but as you say it was six hours play which is far too much without a decent break imo. Thats what i hate about the sunday million and other tourneys like it.

Just to be clear.........the hand is not mine :eek:

RoadSweeper

Sorry just noticed this, shook after a long night last night.


Interesting replies here.


I woundn't mind hearing thoughts on this when we are in position
Does being in position change how we play the hand when faced with a 3 bet??
100BB stacks, in the cut off or on the button holding 88-JJ and we raise 4bb and one of the blinds re raises us. The blind is 20/15.

Now the blind is a fairly decent player who understands position and knows our range is wide. But how can we determine if he is on a re steal or has a hand?

Is his 3 bet range from the blinds wider than we may first assume?


Also like to hear how we play out the hand

A) If we call

4 bet and get called

Theresalwaysone

Small pocket pairs, 22-77 and maybe 88 are limpworthy goldmines in cash games.

cardshark202

We are talking about 6max NLH theresa. your point is kinda invalid

mrflash

Macspower wrote:

Just to be clear.........the hand is not mine :eek:

Apologies there, i see that now.