$1/$2 PLO Hand...Evil Boardie Villain

DeadParrot

Villain is a loose agressive boardy, capable of making moves and has tripled up
within minutes of joining the table with some nice cards and reckless villains.
Has been hovering around the 600 makr for a while now.
We've talked a bit about this hand and I'm wondering how others might play out this hand.
Thoughts on all streets please.....


GAME #636981888: Omaha PL $0,001.00/$0,002.00 2007-08-25 21:18:58
Table Pleco (No DP)
Seat 1: BoardieVillain ($0,639.10 in chips)
Seat 3: nicegirl15 ($0,300.65 in chips)
Seat 5: DeadParrot9 ($0,641.65 in chips)
Seat 6: Molba ($0,861.90 in chips) DEALER
Seat 8: Paperjamm ($0,033.00 in chips)
Seat 10: sooooooooooooted ($0,199.00 in chips)
Paperjamm: Post SB $0,001.00
sooooooooooooted: Post BB $0,002.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DeadParrot9 [9d Qh 8s Ks]
BoardieVillain: Raise $0,007.00
nicegirl15: Fold
DeadParrot9: Call $0,007.00 (thoughts??)
Molba: Fold
Paperjamm: Fold
sooooooooooooted: Fold
*** FLOP *** [6s Kh Qs]
BoardieVillain: Bet $0,017.00
DeadParrot9: Raise $0,040.00
BoardieVillain: Call $0,023.00
*** TURN *** [5d]
BoardieVillain: Bet $0,055.00
DeadParrot9: Raise $0,150.00
BoardieVillain: Call $0,095.00
*** RIVER *** [6h]
BoardieVillain: Bet $0,397.00

Crying call or instafold?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

careca

If I am raising that turn I am raising the max. You made it reasonably cheap for him. I'm not mad about the preflop call, your hand looks pretty but you could you totally dominated.

on the river, I probably cut my losses and fold. AA has just got lucky there and he could even have a 6. If he has KK or QQ he would have raised the turn but I think the only hand you are beating is a busted flush draw.

eoghan104

I like the call preflop in position and I think a fold there is bad aginst a LAG. Flop is OK but I never raise the turn here. Rasing the turn has made your river decision harder. However it is still a clear fold, so many hands have you beat.

Who was the villain?

Primewise

fold preflop, you are dominated by so many raising hands like KKxx QQxx AKQx etc

5starpool

A large part of your range here is a set on the flop given the way you bet flop and turn, although as mentioned raise max on turn if you are raising (and I don't think it is bad to raise with top 2, a gutshot, and K high flush draw although I usually don't raise here myself). Since a flopped set is a reasonable hand for you to have here, you are beaten a large % of the time, although his betting is a bit odd here. If he doesn't have you beaten here then it is a hell of a way to play it. He should have QQxx a lot here i think.

careca

5starpool wrote:

(and I don't think it is bad to raise with top 2, a gutshot, and K high flush draw although I usually don't raise here myself). .

I agree totally with this. THe other thing is his bet of 55 onthe turn looks like a blocker to me.

Not sure about QQ, think he would be getting it all in on the turn if he had that. He can't be afraid of KK because he still tanked the river. Still think AAxx, with maybe AA6x.

careca

Also Dom, he can't figure us for any flopped set if he has QQ as the 6 paired, so any flopped set beats his QQ.

5starpool

careca wrote:

Also Dom, he can't figure us for any flopped set if he has QQ as the 6 paired, so any flopped set beats his QQ.

It is early Neil, but you are correct.

However, I don't think he does with with AAxx as he would have played the hand terribly if this is the case. He may well have a big missed draw as it is an extremely draw heavy board. It is quite possible for him to have 66xx or KKxx though (apart from the turn bet, too big for 66, too small for KK). If he does have a big missed draw it is a crazy bet on the river, and if he does have AA it is still a crazy bet on the river. My current instinct would be for him to have KQxx as well, maybe with spades or JT. If he has this it is less likely that OP flopped a set. I really want to know what he has now. It might also help if we knew who it was although he might not want it known I guess.

Edit: What I was trying to say is that a couple of posts up which I don't think I explained very well here, is that the bet on the end is a very brave or stupid bet if it is a bluff, as if our opponent here had a big missed draw it would be more than reasonable to put OP on a flopped set. However, the fact that he has potted the river means he is not particularly afraid the paired board, so he should have 66xx or KKxx, but these don't make sense from his betting. I am contradicting myself now I think.

Mr.Plough

i would fold pf but im a total omaha nit. i flat call the turn and fold the river. his line's very strong.
who was it?

RoundTower

do you usually bet and raise so small? Unless you raise small with marginal hands and draws, and pot when you have the nuts, it looks like you have a really good hand. He probably has 6666.

DeadParrot

Thats what I was going for RT, with the turn raise (debateable as it is), I was trying to make him think I was a lot stronger with the smaller raise...ie. C'mon call, I'm making it cheap, which looking back was stupid I suppose. I couldn't put him on a set with the two flat calls, me holding the holding the K and Q made it less likely in my view that he had a pair of either.

I also find it hard to believe that he'd raise pot UTG with 66xx, but thats just me

The_Chopper

I think raising the turn here is a big mistake. You're making the pot over inflated for such a marginal holding the way the preflop and flop action went.

The turn bet from Villian looks like one of 2 things to me,
1. A blocker bet on a draw
2. A value bet with a set and some kind of draw, maybe QQJ10 or something like that.

Killme00

DeadParrot wrote:

Villain is a loose agressive boardy, capable of making moves and has tripled up
within minutes of joining the table with some nice cards and reckless villains.
Has been hovering around the 600 makr for a while now.
We've talked a bit about this hand and I'm wondering how others might play out this hand.
Thoughts on all streets please.....


GAME #636981888: Omaha PL $0,001.00/$0,002.00 2007-08-25 21:18:58
Table Pleco (No DP)
Seat 1: BoardieVillain ($0,639.10 in chips)
Seat 3: nicegirl15 ($0,300.65 in chips)
Seat 5: DeadParrot9 ($0,641.65 in chips)
Seat 6: Molba ($0,861.90 in chips) DEALER
Seat 8: Paperjamm ($0,033.00 in chips)
Seat 10: sooooooooooooted ($0,199.00 in chips)
Paperjamm: Post SB $0,001.00
sooooooooooooted: Post BB $0,002.00
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DeadParrot9 [9d Qh 8s Ks]
BoardieVillain: Raise $0,007.00
nicegirl15: Fold
DeadParrot9: Call $0,007.00 (thoughts??)
Molba: Fold
Paperjamm: Fold
sooooooooooooted: Fold
*** FLOP *** [6s Kh Qs]
BoardieVillain: Bet $0,017.00
DeadParrot9: Raise $0,040.00
BoardieVillain: Call $0,023.00
*** TURN *** [5d]
BoardieVillain: Bet $0,055.00
DeadParrot9: Raise $0,150.00
BoardieVillain: Call $0,095.00
*** RIVER *** [6h]
BoardieVillain: Bet $0,397.00

Crying call or instafold?

Flop: Either flat call to control the size of the pot or raise the pot here
Turn: Villian is taking the iniative to bet here, even after you raised the flop, this is very strong and i am folding here.

Samba

The way this hand played out i don't think QQ/KK show up here.

I would be more inclined to put him on /AJ66/J1066 with spades, he's laggy so he will have a wide opening range even from early pos.

God look at all those nits on that table!

Your line is important here, you have essentially represented a set on the flop (raise more on the turn) and come the river...he doesnt care the least for your flop or turn actions.

Regardless of whether this was a move with alot of heart (and or stupidity!) You cannot call here and expect it to be a profitable one in the long term, he has you crushed most of the time. You cannot call imo.

That's the beauty of a laggy image, people always remember the pots they bluffed at and that sits at the back of opponents minds when a lag makes pot sized bet on the river, that's what gets them action on their big hands....

However you will rarely see good lags bluff off 200 BB's on the river on that type of board, especially considering the flop action where you represented a big hand, a good lag would not ignore that information imo.

Regardless of the outcome, I feel this is a fold even though the hand played out rather bizarrely, this is probably why you feel he could be "at it".

The_Chopper

DeadParrot wrote:

Thats what I was going for RT, with the turn raise (debateable as it is), I was trying to make him think I was a lot stronger with the smaller raise...ie. C'mon call, I'm making it cheap, which looking back was stupid I suppose. I couldn't put him on a set with the two flat calls, me holding the holding the K and Q made it less likely in my view that he had a pair of either.

I also find it hard to believe that he'd raise pot UTG with 66xx, but thats just me

I'm villian in this hand - my hand was AKJ10ds with 2 spades,

You like my play or hate it?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Samba

It looks like a great play in this particular hand but overall i think your RB is major spew tbh...You are going to get looked up by a house alot of the time in this spot imo.

RoundTower

I hate it, reraise flop.

eoghan104

The_Chopper wrote:

I'm villian in this hand - my hand was AKJ10ds with 2 spades,

You like my play or hate it?

What hand did you put him on? terrible bluff IMO.

5starpool

The_Chopper wrote:

I'm villian in this hand - my hand was AKJ10ds with 2 spades,

You like my play or hate it?

Your play in this hand makes no sense whatsoever. Preflop, fine, flop fine. Turn, leading for ~1/2 pot when raised on the flop is not great tbh. I know you have a big draw here (hopefully your spades are A high), but you don't want to get your tank in on the turn here.

The bet at the end is a big mistake I think.

As I said above, his line looks a lot like a set. If you have a wrap and nut spades (assuming this) it makes it less likely he has a big draw, and he either has a set (which always calls) or a combo hand (which sometimes calls) a lot of the time here.

Killme00

The_Chopper wrote:

I'm villian in this hand - my hand was AKJ10ds with 2 spades,

You like my play or hate it?

I dont like it at all, you must at least raise the turn. Did you have nuts spades?

cardshark202

The_Chopper wrote:

I'm villian in this hand - my hand was AKJ10ds with 2 spades,

You like my play or hate it?

Hate the turn play, check/call is by far the best here. Don't like the river bet at all.

The_Chopper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Lord. Given Dead Parrot's line on the turn that is one retardo bluff IMO.

Dead Parrot and I had played a few hands upto this point - everytime one of us bet or raised the other one had reraised and from the chat it seems we'd been raising and reraising light.

When I bet out this flop I already thought I'd be raised - when deadparrot didn't pot it back at me and only raised I didn't think he had a set - I felt he had KQ maybe with and maybe without a draw.

My lead on the turn was as I wanted to make it look like a had a set and was value betting it - again it wasn't potted back at me so now I was very confident he didn't have a set as the board was so draw heavy.

When the 6 paired on the river I defo took a chance here - I felt the way the hand played out I had to be put on at least AA with either a straight or flush draw if not the house. I also felt that if I bet 200 on the river I'd get called so I pushed

5starpool

The_Chopper wrote:

Dead Parrot and I had played a few hands upto this point - everytime one of us bet or raised the other one had reraised and from the chat it seems we'd been raising and reraising light.

When I bet out this flop I already thought I'd be raised - when deadparrot didn't pot it back at me and only raised I didn't think he had a set - I felt he had KQ maybe with and maybe without a draw.

My lead on the turn was as I wanted to make it look like a had a set and was value betting it - again it wasn't potted back at me so now I was very confident he didn't have a set as the board was so draw heavy.

When the 6 paired on the river I defo took a chance here - I felt the way the hand played out I had to be put on at least AA with either a straight or flush draw if not the house. I also felt that if I bet 200 on the river I'd get called so I pushed

Given all this, if you had a set like you were trying to represent you would have reraised flop or turn, so your play makes no real sense at all. If you were trying to rep AAxx then your play was even worse.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

DeadParrot

Suffice to say I wanted to die when he told me

The_Chopper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Put him to the test on the turn then!! You have an absolute fcuking monster draw with nearly half the deck as outs. And he'll basically need top or second set to call - which you don't think he has. Plus, as Dom says - the fact that you have the huge combo draw makes it harder for him to have it.

And then, all the draws miss and you stick 2 BI's in on the end on a pure bluff?


Was your ACTUAL line of thought not:

TURN: Let's make a clever blocking bet. Balls, that didn't work but I have a great price.
RIVER: Sh!t. Miss. Eh....arrrrr iiiiin.


?????

No my thinking was I wanted my hand to look as strong as possible, so if I missed my draw I could still potentially win the pot. Everyone who reads any of my posts knows I like to play streets through to the river and don't like to jam my money in even with a massive draw.

Every single one of you told dead parrot to fold on the river as you put me on 6666, qqq, kkk or at least AA. So how can my play now be bad when not a single one of you call me on the river???

5starpool

The_Chopper wrote:

No my thinking was I wanted my hand to look as strong as possible, so if I missed my draw I could still potentially win the pot. Everyone who reads any of my posts knows I like to play streets through to the river and don't like to jam my money in even with a massive draw.

Every single one of you told dead parrot to fold on the river as you put me on 6666, qqq, kkk or at least AA. So how can my play now be bad when not a single one of you call me on the river???

We know what Deadparrot had, you didn't. If you wanted to look as strong as possible why not raise the turn then? If a Q came on the river would you have bet even though that is a good card for 'as strong as possible'.

The_Chopper

By the way against your normal online omaha player I'd never play the hand like that:
It's one of those that he knows that I know that he knows kind of hands

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Killme00

The_Chopper wrote:

By the way against your normal online omaha player I'd never play the hand like that:
It's one of those that he knows that I know that he knows kind of hands

Sometimes you can be too smart for your own good and in the long term this type of play will bite you in the ass.

The_Chopper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

We're looking at Dead Parrot's line and we are assuming that, as a thinking player who is aware that he has an aggressive image, you realise that he could have a FH here. And you don't care. So we are thinking therefore that we should lay down the bottom of our range.

Talk of playing through the streets is nonesense btw. It sounds clever, but it isn't. The best way to play a huge draw is to marry it to some FE. You are close to 50 / 50 to make your clean outs and have specifically put your opponent on a weakish holding. So ****ing re - pot.

At the end you are making a huge bet and asking him to laydown a range which is what he has+. Asking people to lay down decent hands on pure bluffs is never very clever IMO.

Whatever, I'm rubbish at omaha in any case. This just doesn't seem like clever general poker to me though.

The way I played this hand is just about the only way I could have played it to win. My lead on the turn was all about betting the river hard if I missed. If I jam it in on any street apart from the river DeadParrot calls - I think he'll confirm this.

Also I had bet rivers very hard in previous pots and had always got looked up while holding the nuts by someone which I'm sure DeadParrot would have noted. How often do people pot the river on a bluff after the hand plays out this way? How often will you be dead holding DeadParrots hand and unable to call.

For me this hand was about putting DeadParrot on a hand and I went with it. I put him on KQ and when the 6 paired I thought he had to at least give me AA in my hand and fold.

Llyod I disagree with playing through streets - from what I understand you like to play post flop poker very hard, I don't. I like to play post flop and give myself every chance of putting a player on a hand and going with it. I think it's nonsense been able to put someone on a hand preflop and go with a read - I like to take the information gained on the flop and turn also.

Back to this hand, I feel that if I had the position on DeadParrot he'd have won the hand - I think I'd have folded the turn if he fired at me hard.

Samba

A set plays this hand the same way apart from perhaps the turn Raise and some villains will mix it up looking to extract max value with a set and a re-draw, granted you might know his play better than we do your bet is still suicidal imo.

cardshark202

I think the river bet is suicide, 6666 might play this way, KQ6 would play this way on the turn, KK and QQ would play the same also, albeit I would normally expect bigger raises on each street. You were ridiculously lucky that he had bare KQ here imo. if the river is a blank 2 do you bet the same?

careca

Chopper, what was the purpose of the 55 bet on the turn, sorry if I missed the explanation along the way.

The_Chopper

careca wrote:

Chopper, what was the purpose of the 55 bet on the turn, sorry if I missed the explanation along the way.

If a guy bets and gets raised on the flop, flat calls and comes out betting on the turn I always think this is a very strong line - so that's what I was trying to do.

In a way I was trying to play the hand like a monster and was sort of disguarding my cards. If I had 2345o and had played the hand the same way - i think people might think differently about the hand.

I agree that the river bet is suicidal 9 times out of 10, however in this instance the river bet was key to my thinking of the turn. If it gets potted back to me on the turn it's much tougher to do what i did. However with the 150 raise on turn and me calling - there's now 400 in the pot and i can throw in 400 on river knowing that DeadParrot now has a decision for 400. If stacks are smaller I never play it this way.

Hectorjelly

the reason people are telling him to fold is because he has KQ and not a set, if he had a set they would be telling him to call. His play from your POV looks like a set (to us anyway). If you actually put him on KQ then fair play, its a great bet. I think its very easy to say that now, but very hard in practice.

I dont play much omaha, but your hand looks like how most people play draws in hold em. The weak leads to try and get to a cheap showdown, and then a big bet on the river when you miss. The river bet would be bad against a clever thinking player because he would know that he should check on the river given the action with any strong hand. That said with it may work because of the brute force of the bet.