We're racist, as we never knew they were coming?

the_syco

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?:rolleyes:

Bullsh|t. We barely have enough places for the Irish who booked their places 5 years ago, when their child was born, so how the f*ck are we to have places for people who just hopped off the plane, and want to skip the waiting list, cos they're "refugees"?

In the land of the Red Cow Round-the-Bend, they expect us to have stuff ready, for people who we don't know are coming?

Oh, and before someone says "the Irish went to America", the 400,000 that came here so far, would be like 45 million people going to the US. We don't have the infastructure to cope.

uberwolf

I've nothing else to do today except monitor this thread. So careful now.

themole

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?:rolleyes:

Bullsh|t. We barely have enough places for the Irish who booked their places 5 years ago, when their child was born, so how the f*ck are we to have places for people who just hopped off the plane, and want to skip the waiting list, cos they're "refugees"?

In the land of the Red Cow Round-the-Bend, they expect us to have stuff ready, for people who we don't know are coming?

Oh, and before someone says "the Irish went to America", the 400,000 that came here so far, would be like 45 million people going to the US. We don't have the infastructure to cope.

Agreed.

Iompair

Not sure about all of the OP but I'd agree with the point about catholic schools being pressured to take in non-catholics.

That most of our primary schools are run by the catholic church and not by the goverment is our own fault and is something that needs to be remedied as soon as possible.

I'm not sure how, maybe the goverment could buy the schools or the church could step back and donate them to community groups without the restrictions on having a priest on the board and a bishop as chairperson.

Zombrex

the_syco wrote:

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

Good reason to get rid of them and have proper public, secular, schools run by the State, rather than funding private religious schools that encourage segregation based on religious boundaries.

the_syco wrote:

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Because the Catholic Church owes 90% of schools in Ireland and they don't want the State to turn them all into proper public, secular, schools ... ? Just a thought

Remember the State allows the religions to run these schools and provides them with public money to do so. If the religions cannot provide a proper educational service for all children in Ireland then someone else will have to.

the_syco wrote:

20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming

I'm pretty sure most African refugees ring a head ...

flogen

Most of them aren't private schools, though. They're public schools.

The church is just traditionally the body asked by the Government to manage the schools, which is why people have the perception that they're Catholic schools.

It's not a question of the Government buying back the schools, they can just find a new management board - although in many cases the schools are built on church land, which complicates matters somewhat.

themole

flogen wrote:

Most of them aren't private schools, though. They're public schools.

The church is just traditionally the body asked by the Government to manage the schools, which is why people have the perception that they're Catholic schools.

It's not a question of the Government buying back the schools, they can just find a new management board - although in many cases the schools are built on church land, which complicates matters somewhat.

In a lot of cases the church owns the land and the school itself. They are free at any stage to shut it down and sell the lot as has happend in a few places.

vandermeyde

The aul school chestnut normally raises a few hackles so it'll be interesting to see how this thread goes...

I live in West Dublin myself and 2 of my kids are in one of the "catholics first" schools that have been making the news recently.

Our school is full to the rafters with nearly 150 kids applying for places over and above the no. of places which were available for starters this year. there has to be some kind of screening and if the school has a catholic ethos that's as legitimate a ground to restrict no's. as taking kids who have brothers/sisters in the school first.

Schools in Ireland traditionally have been planned, paid for and built by communities predominantly through community funding via the Catholic church. Most are built on church owned land. the state was happy enough to let this happen because it removed a major burden on the public finances, nowadays with the move towards secularisation people have a problem with the "ethos" of a school but the weight of history is what stands against them.

The fact of the matter is if it wasn't for the catholic church and more latterly the educate together groupings we'd have NO schools in this country.

It's a bit like blaming the GAA for not allowing the local soccer team to play on the fields that they planned for, built and maintained over the years.

Jackie laughlin

I'm quite certain the kids that I saw on TV last night had not just stepped off a plane. A black mother who was interviewed had an accent strong enough to rate her as Irish.

Traditionally schools in this state have been denominational. It allowed the Catholic church to dominate education and to fill kids heads with illiberal, cruel notions. Eventually parents began to found non-denominational schools. In the meantime the Catholic church went into decline and the kids are no longer fed unacceptable viewpoints, or - where it continues - the kids don't pay a blind bit of notice.

The major reason why we must urgently introduce secular education is to prevent Irish Islamic kids being fed the same sort of nonsense that has had to be overcome in Catholic schools: gender inequality, obedience to authority, condemnation of homosexuality etc.

CerebralCortex

vandermeyde wrote:

.....The fact of the matter is if it wasn't for the catholic church.....we'd have NO schools in this country...

What do you mean by that?

themole

Jackie laughlin wrote:

The major reason why we must urgently introduce secular education is to prevent Irish Islamic kids being fed the same sort of nonsense that has had to be overcome in Catholic schools: gender inequality, obedience to authority, condemnation of homosexuality etc.

Thats a good point. I would like to see secular schools being built, but the whole school system cannot be changed over night.

Liam Byrne

vandermeyde wrote:

It's a bit like blaming the GAA for not allowing the local soccer team to play on the fields that they planned for, built and maintained over the years.

I agree, but the problem arises when the Government gives out grants and funding......at what stage does it go from being a Catholic school to being a state school ?

There's no 100% right and wrong, but there are 2 considerations:

1) If you build a playground for YOUR kids, should other kids be allowed to use it ? Should you be able to say who can and can't come in ?

Now, if you got some bit of a grant for that, does the argument still apply ?

At what level of a grant should the argument stop applying ?

2) Since there's some fierce venom against the CC in the thread, with some posts about what they've put into people's heads, why would someone with those views want to send their kids to a Catholic school in the first place ?

3) When are we going to get the balance right ? WE have to bow down to immigrants' customs (headgear for Gardai, burcas, etc, etc) but when it comes to the CC, everyone decides that ITS traditions and customs can be thrown out the window to accommodate everyone else ?

Yup, there have been some serious issues with the CC, but people tar the whole church; in the meantime, Islamist correctly point out that not everyone involved in Islam is a psychotic terrorist, and that view is accepted; why is that view not accepted for the CC ?

There's a balance in there somewhere, and we need to find it - FAST - before the resulting imbalance in give-and-take results in serious racism from one side or the other.

BTW, I'm not religious - not in the organised religion sense, considering that all I've ever seen religion do is segregate people, cause war and strife and illogical hatred. All the good that religion does could be done without religion and without that baggage. So I'm no apologist for the CC, but I REALLY think that we need to treat EVERYONE equally, and that INCLUDES the CC and "our own".

Shutuplaura

Jackie laughlin wrote:

In the meantime the Catholic church went into decline and the kids are no longer fed unacceptable viewpoints, or - where it continues - the kids don't pay a blind bit of notice.

The major reason why we must urgently introduce secular education is to prevent Irish Islamic kids being fed the same sort of nonsense that has had to be overcome in Catholic schools: gender inequality, obedience to authority, condemnation of homosexuality etc.

Watched a Richard Dawkins programme recently?

Kids spend the last majority of their time in the home - or away from school anyway. Primary scholl is about seven hours a day, 180 days a year or something like that. Blaming religious schools for sexism, rascism and homophobia is just daft, they learn most if not all of their worldview at home. If you don't believe me ask any teacher. Or look on the streets. Full of litter. I left primary school 15 years ago and even back then it was drilled into kids not to litter, without success. Why do schools fail to do that simple thing yet still according to you churn out bucketloads of sexist rascist fascist homophobes? Why can the church make people so reactionary while at school yet not stauch the bloodloss to their congregations? With respect i think its bordering on lazy and naive reasoning to bash the church and not society as a whole.

As regards the main question - I dunno it sounds just like an excuse to bash minority groups

uberwolf

Shutuplaura wrote:

Christ, watched a Richard Dawkins programme recently?

Foolish, lazy reasoning

all in your humble opinion naturally. Keep your opinions to the post, and not the poster.

Shutuplaura

!

Didn't mean to sound insulting. In my defence I meant reasoning of that nature was foolish and lazy, not the poster. I think Jackie understands but I'll edit anyway. Its also not my humble opinion but the opinion of many educators. Its basic first month of the Hdip Theory of Education stuff. (Just like to add that)

flogen

Liam Byrne wrote:

When are we going to get the balance right ? WE have to bow down to immigrants' customs (headgear for Gardai, burcas, etc, etc) but when it comes to the CC, everyone decides that ITS traditions and customs can be thrown out the window to accommodate everyone else ?

Firstly, you may have missed the discussion but religious headgear is banned in the Gardaí.

Secondly there's nothing wrong with a religion teaching its beliefs to those who want to follow and there's nothing I've found in Catholic religious custom about denying children their right to an education or discriminating against said child because of what their parents chose to believe.

But when it becomes the effective gatekeeper to a child's education and makes a certain religion the reason for denying such it isn't a matter of them acting in a traditional manner, it's about them denying a child their rights.

When demand outstrips supply it's a sad fact that some children will be turned away from a school. There's a certain logic to giving priority to those who have siblings in the school and there's no argument against the school looking at an application on a one by one basis rather than just a lucky dip. But had the school in question just let students in on criteria other than their religion (like their temperament, their abilities in certain subjects) then this debate wouldn't have arisen. But because it decided that a child must agree with the Catholic church if it wants to have an education it has drawn attention upon itself and the question of secular schools in general.

I don't expect the situation to change over night or the Government to do anything about it. I would expect a school to put the education of a child above their religious beliefs, however, as they are entrusted by the school to educate not to indoctrinate.

grahamo

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?:rolleyes:

Bullsh|t. We barely have enough places for the Irish who booked their places 5 years ago, when their child was born, so how the f*ck are we to have places for people who just hopped off the plane, and want to skip the waiting list, cos they're "refugees"?

In the land of the Red Cow Round-the-Bend, they expect us to have stuff ready, for people who we don't know are coming?

Oh, and before someone says "the Irish went to America", the 400,000 that came here so far, would be like 45 million people going to the US. We don't have the infastructure to cope.

Well Said! The PC gob****es are just going too far these days. I had to put my kids names down for a school place when they were still babies. Why should anybody, no matter what colour, creed etc. they are jump queues. Refugees should put up with exactly the same ****e the rest of us have to.

purple'n'gold

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?

First up, the 20 or so "refugees" should be sent straight back where they came from. There are no direct flights from Africa to Ireland. They obviously came from a third country, so they should be detained in the airport and sent back there on the next available plane.

Zebra3

I have no problem with papist schools turning away non-RC kids, but the responsibility lies with the state to provide an education for non-RC kids-Irish or not.

The current situation is a sad hangover from the RC-ruling past as the state has allowed them almost a complete monopoly on education and it has sadly encouraged people who couldn't give a toss about religion to register the kids with the Roman church and wrongly boost their numbers.

It's up to the state to start providing schools for both non-RC kids and RC kids whose parents don't want them brought up in a segregated school system.

Shutuplaura

purplengold wrote:

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?

First up, the 20 or so "refugees" should be sent straight back where they came from. There are no direct flights from Africa to Ireland. They obviously came from a third country, so they should be detained in the airport and sent back there on the next available plane.

How can you blame asylum seekers and not the successive Irish governments which have seriously underfunded education for decades? Thats the issue really. They country's population is expanding in line with our prosperity and the education system can't cope becasue of years of fund starvation. Blaming a few refugees for that is crazy.

They probably also did go through another European country to get here. So what? Should we only accept refugees how come accross in container lorries or wee boats?

seamus

Wicknight wrote:

Good reason to get rid of them and have proper public, secular, schools run by the State, rather than funding private religious schools that encourage segregation based on religious boundaries.

Because the Catholic Church owes 90% of schools in Ireland and they don't want the State to turn them all into proper public, secular, schools ... ? Just a thought

Remember the State allows the religions to run these schools and provides them with public money to do so. If the religions cannot provide a proper educational service for all children in Ireland then someone else will have to.

I'm finding myself agreeing with Wicknight an awful lot these days...

The crux of the matter here is that we need now to provide secular education. It was grand back in the past when everyone was still afraid of JP 2 and the issue of multi-denominationalism didn't really exist. I've no problem with providing "Religious Education" in public schools, provided that it's not biased towards any one religion. Perhaps a brief history of religion or something.
If the Catholic Church is unwilling to adopt this approach, then the schools must be taken from them or they must forfeit any public funding and go private. If parents still wish to send their children to a religiously biased school, then they can send them to any of the thousands of private schools in the country.

A public education should be a secular education - it doesn't matter who is running the schools. If a public school was teaching Islam in class, favouring Muslim applicants and bringing the children to Muslim religious services, there'd be uproar.

Zambia

I went to a CC school and cant remember being drilled in anything in paticular to be against gay rights , etc ... The cc has a position on most issues like all religon's and in general I see most catholics bear them in mind and do what they feel is right anyway.

As for the question of immigrant children in schools well the fact of the matter is we should have places for them as it is not illegal to immigrate to ireland legally? We should not be forced to place our kids names on registers 5 years in advance. That is the issue we have to address.

As far as state schools go well if the goverment wants to build a school in every district to replace the CC alternative well i say let them go ahead and when completed the CC school can increase fees to to replace the funding provided by the state.

Its a fact that while planning permisson was handed out for housing in the late 80's early 90's taht no thought was given to the support networks required for 500 - 1000 red brick houses.

Basically the forward planning of the goverment is at fault here. Coupled with the inabilty to control and maintain an effective barrier to illegal immigration.

purple'n'gold

They probably also did go through another European country to get here. So what? Should we only accept refugees how come accross in container lorries or wee boats?

we should only accept people who are here legally, end of story.
And yes, The illegal Irish in the USA should all be rounded up and sent home.

Shutuplaura

seamus wrote:

A public education should be a secular education - it doesn't matter who is running the schools. If a public school was teaching Islam in class, favouring Muslim applicants and bringing the children to Muslim religious services, there'd be uproar.

Yes, I agree with your last point 100%. Public schools should be secular. The situation in Ireland has allowed to develop because the state was unwilling/unable to organise education on its own so i leaned on the Church for help. Church schools required less funding becasue the CC made up the difference. When i last taught about 5 years ago it was still the case that pupils in CC schools still recieved less per head than in the state school across the road. Now the state finally has the money the situation should be laid to rest.

Purple n'Gold - Fair enough, if thats what you think good luck to you. Its pretty xenophobic but if your happy with then so am I.

flogen

I love the way certain posters here are desperately trying to turn this into an asylum/immigration issue.

The kids were turned away because they weren't catholic, not because they were from another country or because their parents were asylum seekers.

If they were 10th generation Irish they would have been turned away too because of their religion. Indeed if they were CoI they would have been refused too, I assume.

Can people stop trying to drag this into an area that is largely irrelevant to it?

grahamo wrote:

Well Said! The PC gob****es are just going too far these days. I had to put my kids names down for a school place when they were still babies. Why should anybody, no matter what colour, creed etc. they are jump queues. Refugees should put up with exactly the same ****e the rest of us have to.

Who said anything about queue skipping? The point is that they're not even being allowed on the queue.

comewatmay

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

But that's not PC, is it? Before a PC twat moans, I tell them: try to get a jew into the Islamic madrasahs. Whats wrong? Why can't they get in? And then answer me this: why should the Catholic church bend over backwards, but not them?

Also my first point. 20 or so Africans refugees get off the plane from (bloody magical non-existant direct-flight), and as they gave no advance notice that they were coming, it's our fault for not relaising that they'd come, thus it's our fault that we don't have enough schools for them?:rolleyes:

Bullsh|t. We barely have enough places for the Irish who booked their places 5 years ago, when their child was born, so how the f*ck are we to have places for people who just hopped off the plane, and want to skip the waiting list, cos they're "refugees"?

In the land of the Red Cow Round-the-Bend, they expect us to have stuff ready, for people who we don't know are coming?

Oh, and before someone says "the Irish went to America", the 400,000 that came here so far, would be like 45 million people going to the US. We don't have the infastructure to cope.

I concur

grahamo

Shutuplaura wrote:

How can you blame asylum seekers and not the successive Irish governments which have seriously underfunded education for decades? Thats the issue really. They country's population is expanding in line with our prosperity and the education system can't cope becasue of years of fund starvation. Blaming a few refugees for that is crazy.

They probably also did go through another European country to get here. So what? Should we only accept refugees how come accross in container lorries or wee boats?

Yes! If they have come through another European country they are no longer refugees, they are illegal immigrants.

uberwolf

grahamo wrote:

[/COLOR]

Yes! If they have come through another European country they are no longer refugees, they are illegal immigrants.

for the sake of this thread all children are legally resident in this state. Find/Start another thread if you want to discuss illegal immigrants.

Zambia

MY overall view of the school funding System is the state pays all teachers regardless of weather they are in a private or public school. Please can anyone confirm this.

Surely it is a religous freedom to have your children raised in your own faith I see no issue with any religous schools. I doubt the irish goverment builds any religous schools on behalf of one religon.

I repeat the previous piont there should be enough secular schools to cater for the population. Religous schools should be allowed run in tandem. The catholic schools filled a huge vacum that the state was happy to let them fill along with protestant schools. We have seen threads on parents trying to pass kids as catholic to avail of a closer/better school.

If a religous school can survive (enough number)alongside with a secular one then the state should fund one wholy and the teachers in the other.

If there is a huge waiting list then that is what has to be addressed

the_syco

Shutuplaura wrote:

How can you blame asylum seekers and not the successive Irish governments which have seriously underfunded education for decades? Thats the issue really. They country's population is expanding in line with our prosperity and the education system can't cope becasue of years of fund starvation. Blaming a few refugees for that is crazy.

Our country is expanding, and the schools are barely coping. So yes, when a massive influx from abroad comes in, the massive influx can be blamed.

Shutuplaura wrote:

They probably also did go through another European country to get here. So what? Should we only accept refugees how come accross in container lorries or wee boats?

Asyulm seekers seek asylum in the first country they come to, and not the 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th. Go back to Italy, if that's the first country you came to.

Wicknight wrote:

Good reason to get rid of them and have proper public, secular, schools run by the State, rather than funding private religious schools that encourage segregation based on religious boundaries.

Agreed. But I wonder where the money would come from, though? The hostipals?

=-=

For a country that is surrounded by miles of water, the immigration policy has gone to the dogs.

But the question is: how come we're still letting them in, when we can't cope?

lostexpectation

there is not enough schools even for Irishirish people, Im not saying look after ours first im saying its up to the state to provide (secular) schools its in the constitution, they are the ones who abdicated responsibility.

I don't expect parents on ET to build their own schools I want 100% school funding please gov

im sick of people saying that sf or lab are pro-immigration, its ff and fg a d pd that are pro immigration there economic policies depend soley on cheap labour.

lostexpectation

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes. I said it. Private schools. The Catholic schools are not public schools. They're privately run, funded, and the selection process is done by the Catholics.

so what your saying is if there is we have no state education at all in this country? no public schools?

mike65

If Catholics want a Catholic education they can pay for it at a private school.
The rest of us should be able to send children to state run and financed school for a 'catholic' education.

As for the current shortfall, regardless of immigrants the school building programme is pathetic and of course based on a pack of assumptions and restrictions regarding the nonsense that could be ended if the state took charge! - see first paragraph.

This subject got about 10 mins on the BBC radio flagship The World Tonight yesterday. clicky, select the listen again for Tueday and move the seek bar to just past 50%

Mike.

silverharp

vandermeyde wrote:

The fact of the matter is if it wasn't for the catholic church and more latterly the educate together groupings we'd have NO schools in this country.

That's nonsense, the fact that a system evolves a certain way does not preclude an alternate system under different circumstances. If the present generation has largely moved on then it seems silly to to be held ransomed to the past. I feel sorry for people who feel they have to baptise their kids even though they don't have a religious bone in their body so that they can get into the local school. What a message to give your kids, ie it's ok to lie and cheat to advance your own interests

Zombrex

the_syco wrote:

Agreed. But I wonder where the money would come from, though? The hostipals?

What you think the money comes from the churches?

We already pay for these schools.

the_syco wrote:

For a country that is surrounded by miles of water, the immigration policy has gone to the dogs.

The immigration policy seems to be working perfectly fine. This isn't an issue about immigration, it is an issue about education policy and secularism.

But it seems nothing can happen in Ireland these days without someone going "See! See! I told you multi-culturalism was a bad idea! See!"

This problem did exist before immigration and would still exist if we had no immigration.

the_syco wrote:

But the question is: how come we're still letting them in, when we can't cope?

Letting who in? Irish born children?

As someone else asked, why is this turning into a debate about immigration? Most if not all these children are Irish born. This isn't to do with them being black, or children of immigrants. It is to do with them being non-Catholic.

This issue is making the headlines now, but it has always been there.

Non-Catholic families have always struggled to get their children into schools because 98% of schools in Ireland are run by the Catholic Church which are legally allowed to discriminate based on religion.

This is simply becoming more and more of an issue as the population of Ireland, native and immigrant, become less and less Catholic.

The ridiculous nature of our education system was eventually going to run into this problem. If it wasn't due to non-Catholic immigration it would be the fact that more and more native Irish are become agnostic or atheist, or switching to religions such as Islam.

The Corinthian

The reason for the current dilemma is, in part, that the Irish government was happy enough to abdicate responsibility for schooling to the Roman Catholic Church for many years.

Secondly there are very few schools to begin with. Remember, non-Catholic kids are not barred from going to Catholic schools, it's just that Catholics have first preference. This is their business to do so - that they are getting public money is simply a result of that aforementioned historical abdication of responsibility by the government.

If there were enough school places this would simply not be an issue, but because it is - because we are in a position whereby we have to put our kids on a waiting list the moment they're born - there are simply not enough places there to keep up with the present population explosion and this is the principle problem, not that poor little non-Catholics are being excluded.

Zombrex

lostexpectation wrote:

no public schools?

As far as I'm aware we don't, at least not like "public" schools in America that are run by the local school boards.

Most if not all of the schools in Ireland are privately owned, most by religious groups, some by parents themselves. They receive funding by the government, but the government doesn't own them.

Because of this they are allowed to decide themselves who they want to go to the school, and the religious schools obviously pick members of the religion first before selecting members of other religions.

Nevyn

lostexpectation wrote:

so what your saying is if there is we have no state education at all in this country? no public schools?

There are a handful state secondary schools and that is it.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/education/primary-and-post-primary-education/going-to-primary-school/ownership_of_schools

The vast majority of primary schools in Ireland are privately owned and supported by the different churches. The state pays the bulk of the building and running costs and a local contribution is made towards the running costs.

National schools are privately owned - in general by the relevant church authorities. In the case of Catholic schools, the owners are usually the diocesan trustees; the same is true for Church of Ireland schools. Other denominational schools usually have a board of trustees nominated by the church authorities. Multi-denominational schools are usually owned by a limited company or board of trustees.

Gaelscoileanna may be denominational and come under the same patronage as Catholic schools but some have their own limited company.

This is not just about children who are not irish but also about children who are not of a parish ( ie christian ) and the schools are set up not for the children in the community but the children of the parish.

Victor

purplengold wrote:

There are no direct flights from Africa to Ireland.

You might tell that to Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Jet2, Spanair and a bunch of others. I suspect the aircrew might be bunking off some of the flights.

purple'n'gold

Victor wrote:

You might tell that to Ryanair, Aer Lingus, Jet2, Spanair and a bunch of others. I suspect the aircrew might be bunking off some of the flights.

you are probably talking about charter flights to and from north African holiday destinations?

Jackie laughlin

Shutuplaura,
The last Richard Dawkins progs I watched were two about irrational beliefs. I generally agree with Dawkins but have a few points of disagreement. I don't understand the relevance of your question/comment.

Of course I don't think that schools are alone responsible for the inculcation of values. On the contrary we often look to schools to undo some of the values taught at home, e.g. we expect schools to impart a love of learning, ambition, oppsition to bullying etc. etc. My point is that it is now urgent that action is taken so that Islamic Irish kids will have illiberal, cruel values undermined at school.

FatherTed

Who actually funds public schools e.g. Nation Schools for Primary education etc? Is it the Government or the Catholic Church? I always thought the Government funded schools but the CC controlled the Board etc.

fly_agaric

I think there are two issues being confused in this thread. The religious nature of the education system (which will become increasingly ridiculous as practicing Catholics head towards becoming a minority in the state) and mass-immigration.

The population is increasing very rapidly while our education system (complete with overcrowded classes, rathole primary schools etc) is not exactly over-resoursed now is it?

Even if the schools were drawing lots rather than making a catholics-first there would still be parents/children who get to draw the short straw.
This pressure on school places problem (without the added issue of discrimination in entry) recurs each Sept, the media/politicians pay momentary attention to the problems of the commuter belts of Ireland, then forget about it till next year.:)

wes

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Of course I don't think that schools are alone responsible for the inculcation of values. On the contrary we often look to schools to undo some of the values taught at home, e.g. we expect schools to impart a love of learning, ambition, oppsition to bullying etc. etc. My point is that it is now urgent that action is taken so that Islamic Irish kids will have illiberal, cruel values undermined at school.

Yes, because every Muslim parent raises there children to have cruel, illiberal values. Go figure, my mother must have done a terrible job raising me with those cruel illiberal values or something. Oh wait, no she didn't raise me with cruel, illiberal values at all. In fact she did a fine job of bringing me up. Plenty of other Muslim parents bring up there kids just fine too.

Nice of you to lump all Muslim parents as teaching there children cruel illiberal values.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Our schools system is a mess, its hardly the fault of immigrants. Its bad planning plain and simple, a lot of the countries infrastructure and not just the schools are not up to the task of handling the increased population. This needs to be sorted out asap, as our long term economic viability will suffer immensely if we don't.

DublinWriter

the_syco wrote:

Was reading Kevin Myers article in todays Indo (page 22), about how we're not to blame for not building schools for Africans that just came here. That the Catholics aren't to blame for prefering Catholics to anyone else, in their private schools.

Yes, but yet we're more than willing to accept into the country what I term 'journalistic migrants'; i.e. also-rans such as Myers and Mary Ellen-Synon who can't cut the mustard in the U.K. media and run over here for cushy jobs cranking out quasi-racist opinion-pieces.

Firstly, you have to take into account that Ireland was the first country in Europe to have a state-funded Islamic primary school (Clonskea, 1992). I'm particularly fond of that fact.

Secondly, if you don't like the way the RC establishment are running schools then get off yer arses and establish your own agnostic school.

Thirdly, look at the amount of Catholic parents clamouring to send their kids to the COI schools in Wicklow because of their superior acamdeic record.

Fourtly, see all those African migrants? Their kids will be paying for your state pension sooner than you realise and will also be playing GAA for your county.

Don't ever forget the rich-irony that Myers himself is an economic migrant from the UK.

Jackie laughlin

It's just not good enough to compel agnostics or atheists to start schools. I had little option but to send my kids to RC schools. This was after the hey day of Catholicism, so no harm was done.

The problem for a parent with progressive values - or nowadays mainstream decent and tolerant values - is not the God question but the the values which are taught in a religious school. Belief in God and belief that, say, homosexuality is evil are not necessarily linked.

My fears for Islamic kids don't rest on any notion that their parents are Islamic extremists. Clearly they are not. The problem is that the these Irish kids are being taught that women and men are not equal (Please, please spare me the specious, different-but-equal argument.) and that homosexuality is evil. An irish child going to school should be liberated by attendance and not have this nonsense confirmed.

wes

Jackie laughlin wrote:

My fears for Islamic kids don't rest on any notion that their parents are Islamic extremists. Clearly they are not. The problem is that the these Irish kids are being taught that women and men are not equal (Please, please spare me the specious, different-but-equal argument.) and that homosexuality is evil. An irish child going to school should be liberated by attendance and not have this nonsense confirmed.

Not all Muslims will say that Women aren't equal to men. They certainly are. Homosexuality is not evil either. We all don't adhere to such ancient puritanism. I agree that such puritan values are wrong, but to say that every Muslim child would be raised to believe this is wrong, I was not brought up to believe this and many other won't either. As for being liberated by attending a secular school system, well it doesn't exist in this country, so until the government get its act together, hardly going to happen. I tend to think mixed secular schools are better, since children from different backgrounds get to mix.

Nevyn

The government were infact warned about this two years ago.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0905/education.html?rss

The UN had warned the Government that the children of immigrants were in danger of being discriminated against in terms of admission to schools, it has emerged.

Two years ago a UN committee recommended that existing legislation needed to be amended to prevent this occurring.

The warning was repeated by another UN committee last year.
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In 2005 the UN's Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination told Ireland it was concerned that existing laws and practice would favour Catholic pupils in the admission to Catholic schools in case of shortage of places.

It went on to say that 'recognising the intersectionality of racial and religious discrimination' encouraged the State 'to promote the establishment of non-denominational or multi-denominational schools and to amend existing legislation so that no discrimination may take place as far as the admission of pupils (of all religions) to schools is concerned'.

Last September the UN's Committee on the Rights of the Child reiterated these concerns and again called on Ireland to amend legislation.

and again the government sat on it's arse and did nothing and still got re-elected.
Ireland has still not ratified the Un charter on the rights of the child and it is the status of the school in this country which is preventing this from happening.

The Corinthian

DublinWriter wrote:

Fourtly, see all those African migrants? Their kids will be paying for your state pension sooner than you realise and will also be playing GAA for your county.

Bit early to say. It's not certain they will stay or want to stay, to begin with. Also it's not certain that the situation here won't go the same way as it has in France (the children of their north African migrants are decidedly not paying for anyone's state pension).

Of course it may come to pass as you predict, but it is far to early to make such sweeping predictions.

the_syco

lostexpectation wrote:

so what your saying is if there is we have no state education at all in this country? no public schools?

No. I know of two schools that are not run by the Catholic Church. The waiting list is VERY long, though, on the one that is not religous(ask the Atheists: there was a thread last year about the lack of non-religous schools). The other one is a prosatant school.

wes wrote:

Its bad planning plain and simple

Look at the Red Cow roundabout, and the way our motorways have no stops along them, for further proof.

=-=

Can someone link me to these direct to Africa flights? IE: the ones from Africa direct to Ireland, not stopping anywhere along the way, please?

=-=

Anyhoo's, that is not my point. My point is that, with our schools bursting, the PC brigade is shouting that we're racist for not giving the refugees priority places. F*ck 'em, I say. Take care of our own first. As for being non-catholic, I pretty sure a lot of the African kids are catholic. Go to mass: you'll see loads of the new priests are from that part of the world, as the RC faith is strong over there.

Jackie laughlin, you must have not been in school for decades, unless you went to a CB's school, as the catholic schools teach equality, and have done for a long time.

Zambia

Jackie laughlin wrote:

It's just not good enough to compel agnostics or atheists to start schools. I had little option but to send my kids to RC schools. This was after the hey day of Catholicism, so no harm was done.

The problem for a parent with progressive values - or nowadays mainstream decent and tolerant values - is not the God question but the the values which are taught in a religious school. Belief in God and belief that, say, homosexuality is evil are not necessarily linked.

My fears for Islamic kids don't rest on any notion that their parents are Islamic extremists. Clearly they are not. The problem is that the these Irish kids are being taught that women and men are not equal (Please, please spare me the specious, different-but-equal argument.) and that homosexuality is evil. An irish child going to school should be liberated by attendance and not have this nonsense confirmed.

Jackie you yourself admit to sending your kids to a school that is run by a religon where Homosexuality is not accepted/is evil/is a sin. Then claim that the right of muslims to do the exact same should be stopped. (granted I gather you would like the RC version stopped to)while offering no evidence that this teaching does go on. It may be a fact that muslims think homosexuality is evil but there is no proof its drilled into them as wes has stated.

In fact I am not aware of any gay friendly religon?

You also state that its not enough to demand that secular schools be built. Well what else do you propse enforced buy out of the current RC, COI , other schools that have filled the gap till now including the education of your own kids.

If you want an american style secular school system well then hangs on to your tax brackets because you better be prepared to pay for it.