Why does God never show himself?

Pinker

As an atheist I respect other peoples religious choices, however when I apply critical thinking to certain aspects of being religious I find I am left with no honest alternative than to conclude that a god does not exist in any shape or form. So to keep it simple for now I will ask just one of these questions.

Q. Why would a god never show himself?, why would such a great, almighty and everliving god feel the need to hide, surely were god to make an odd appearance us humans would be very well behaved indeed for this would provide some support the existence of heaven/hell?

A. My take on this is that god doesn't appear, ever, because he was imagined by people in times gone by to answer questions that were unanswerable at the time, and his religious connections to heaven and hell helped provide law and order, an incredibly effective system that has now served its purpose.

PDN

He did show Himself. It's called the Incarnation.

He also showed Himself in numerous ways throughout the Bible.

Doctor DooM

As the OP is an atheist I doubt he is going to take "cos the bible says so" as a legit argument...

Dave!

Does he have no urge to show himself again? Maybe say a few words to the Muslims, tell the extremists that they've misunderstood... tell the Christians to keep their faith in the face of a growing secular movement... tell the Jews that it's not the land that matters, but the people... maybe give the atheists the evidence they need to worship him...

He could settle the age-old bet of which is the best religion!

You don't think the world would benefit greatly from god making a very public appearance for everyone to see?

kelly1

Pinker wrote:

Q. Why would a god never show himself?, why would such a great, almighty and everliving god feel the need to hide, surely were god to make an odd appearance us humans would be very well behaved indeed for this would provide some support the existence of heaven/hell?

Hello Pinker, I'm not going to attempt to prove the existence of God but I'm coming from a position of faith.

First of all God requires us to have faith in Him. I'm not certain why this is but He must have a very special reward in store for us considering that life on earth is so difficult at times and that we have to struggle against "the devil, the world and the flesh" in order to achieve holiness in this life. Additionally for most of us He doesn't reveal Himself directly so this adds to the difficulty. God allows us to experience temptations in order to increase our humility. When we "fall", it shows us how weak we are and how much we need God's grace to live holy lives.

If God did reveal Himself directly, we would no longer require faith and I expect very few of us would continue to live the way we do now. God would effectively be removing an element of free-will because He is so irresistible.
When God doesn't reveal Himself, we are left to choose or reject God freely.

God has revealed himself over the years through the Jewish prophets such as Moses. He has also revealed Himself to countless saints over the years. I suggest reading any biography of the mystic saints e.g. Saint Faustina's Diary or the Autobiography of Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque. The words of Jesus are just so beautiful, you just want to say "WOW". Reading the lives of the saints is always inspirational and gives me courage to continue the good fight.

For those who sincerely seek God, there is a well-worn path trodden by the saints. Essentially it starts with the gift of faith from God which leads to basic prayer. Basic prayer leads to meditation and mediation leads to contemplation and contemplation leads to divine union. It's a difficult path though (as described in the bible) and requires a total denial of one's own will and an acceptance of God's. Many saints have described the love that God "infuses" into one's soul as indescribably beautiful and leaves a lasting impression.

Most people never see any evidence of God in their lives because they don't do enough to renounce themselves and follow Christ. They still cling to old sinful habits and this puts up a barrier between them and God. Anyone who really and truly "denies himself and takes up his cross to follow Christ" will be touched by God (mostly by spiritual consolations).

Pinker wrote:

A. My take on this is that god doesn't appear, ever, because he was imagined by people in times gone by to answer questions that were unanswerable at the time, and his religious connections to heaven and hell helped provide law and order, an incredibly effective system that has now served its purpose.

It's a standard atheistic assumption. God can and does reveal himself to those who love Him sincerely. Having said that there are many who lead saintly lives and never find any evidence for God but the reward for their faith and perseverance will be all the greater. Mother Teresa
is a good example.

God bless,
Noel.

PDN

SDooM wrote:

As the OP is an atheist I doubt he is going to take "cos the bible says so" as a legit argument...

So what he's really asking is, "Since I reject all the times God has already showed Himself, why doesn't He show Himself especially for me at a time of my choosing and in a way that I dictate?"

Sounds to me like he's looking for a lapdog rather than for God.

Run_to_da_hills

To me, it still boils down to Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that cometh to God MUST BELIEVE THAT HE IS, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him." I didn't get the dimmest glimmer of revelation until I exhibited even the most minuscule sign of faith that I was actually wanting God to show Himself.

I believe the atheist attesting that he/she is "calling" or more dramatically, "crying" "out to God" is play-acting, because they're actually afraid to meet God. If they met Him, they'd have to re-do their entire belief system, have to re-evaluate all their science and face persecution from their valuable atheist "colleagues".

Show that glimmer of faith, and make it real. God will show Himself to you. I did, and it changed my life.

Zombrex

PDN wrote:

So what he's really asking is, "Since I reject all the times God has already showed Himself, why doesn't He show Himself especially for me at a time of my choosing and in a way that I dictate?"

Sounds to me like he's looking for a lapdog rather than for God.

Well its a valid question, one Kelly1 is at least honest enough to say "I don't know"

Why isn't God just here all the time. Why all the hoop la with the set up of worlds where he is not present until one gets to heaven when he presumably is "here" all the time.

Why does God require us to live out this life in his absence, with simply faith to go on and the odd "feeling" in the heads of believers that they think is God, until the faithful get to heaven and are with God all the time?

Why is everyone not just in heaven?

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

I believe the atheist attesting that he/she is "calling" or more dramatically, "crying" "out to God" is play-acting, because they're actually afraid to meet God. If they met Him, they'd have to re-do their entire belief system, have to re-evaluate all their science and face persecution from their valuable atheist "colleagues".

I would love to met God (assuming he exists), I would have a lot of questions, though I'm not sure why you think it would require me to redo my entire belief system.

My beliefs would remain the same, and I still wouldn't worship him mainly because of the things he has done as described in the Bible (assuming he had actually done them, which would be my first question). If he wished to cast me into the fires of hell for that, well that would simple confirm to me that he is not a god to worship.

Skadi

Why would God come to a polluted earth to walk among us or show himself to those that would question or ridicule him? Maybe he shows himself less now than he did in the bible for his anger might not be easy to control with all the sin he would witness around him. The sins of the unbelievers which are more tolerable but even greater the sins of the believers who preach one thing and then go and do the opposite.

I agree with kelly1 that if Pinker saw God, he wouldn't recognise him. But then how are we to know that those that say the felt the presence of God, is actually God or not just some internal mechanism in our body that makes us think it is God.

Many people will look for God and find him. Many others will never find him at all for they will deny his existence and put it down to nature or else some self feeling. Man in general needs a god so that they can have some kind of afterlife and also so that there is some reason for them to be Lord over the other animals.

Scofflaw

Wicknight wrote:

I would love to met God (assuming he exists), I would have a lot of questions, though I'm not sure why you think it would require me to redo my entire belief system.

My beliefs would remain the same, and I still wouldn't worship him mainly because of the things he has done as described in the Bible (assuming he had actually done them, which would be my first question). If he wished to cast me into the fires of hell for that, well that would simple confirm to me that he is not a god to worship.

Alatrism FTW!

unworshipfully,
Scofflaw

Run_to_da_hills

Wicknight wrote:

I would love to met God (assuming he exists), I would have a lot of questions, though I'm not sure why you think it would require me to redo my entire belief system.

My beliefs would remain the same, and I still wouldn't worship him mainly because of the things he has done as described in the Bible (assuming he had actually done them, which would be my first question). If he wished to cast me into the fires of hell for that, well that would simple confirm to me that he is not a god to worship.

If you did "meet" God or "came to the knowledge of the truth" as it says in 1st Timothy, I dont think you could still hold on to your origional beliefs, ie they would contradict one another.

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

If you did "meet" God or "came to the knowledge of the truth" as it says in 1st Timothy, I dont think you could still hold on to your origional beliefs, ie they would contradict one another.

Which ones would contradict each other? My atheism? That isn't really a belief, but you are correct that if it was properly demonstrated that it is very likely God existed I would probably believe that to be true. Still wouldn't worship him though (assuming he is the God from the Old Testament)

Scofflaw

Scofflaw wrote:

Alatrism FTW!

unworshipfully,
Scofflaw

Seconded!

Run_to_da_hills

Wicknight wrote:

Which ones would contradict each other? My atheism? That isn't really a belief, but you are correct that if it was properly demonstrated that it is very likely God existed I would probably believe that to be true. Still wouldn't worship him though (assuming he is the God from the Old Testament)

God is light, unbelief is darkness, you cannot have light and darkness in the same place likewise fresh water and salt water cannot flow from the same spring.

The Old Testament lays the foundation for the teachings and events found in the New Testament. The Bible is a progressive revelation. If you skip the first half of any good book and try to finish it, you will have a hard time understanding the characters, the plot, and the ending. In the same way, the New Testament is only completely understood when it is seen as a fulfillment of the events, characters, laws, sacrificial system, covenants, and promises of the Old Testament.

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

God is light, unbelief is darkness, you cannot have light and darkness in the same place likewise fresh water and salt water cannot flow from the same spring.

That's your belief, not his
So that doesn't show why his beliefs would contradict

kelly1

Wicknight wrote:

Why does God require us to live out this life in his absence...

God isn't absent. He dwells in the souls of those who live in a state of grace. God is also present in the Eucharist.

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

God is light, unbelief is darkness, you cannot have light and darkness in the same place likewise fresh water and salt water cannot flow from the same spring.

Well actually "God" is a supernatural deity, light is a fluctuation of electromagnetic energy, and darkness is the absence of that fluctuation within the range of spectrum that we can see with our eyes.

"God is light" is a nice metaphor, but it makes little sense to then start apply rules to this metaphor. God maybe "the light" but that doesn't mean he is reflected at a reverse angle from shinning surfaces.

I see no problem at all with knowing that God exists and refusing to worship him because of the atrocities he has committed.

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

The Old Testament lays the foundation for the teachings and events found in the New Testament.

Well that is rather irrelevant to my point. The Old Testament describes genocide and mass murder carried out by God or in the name of God.

That is not a god I would wish to worship, or a god I feel deserves worship from anyone, any more than I imagine you would wish to worship Satan simply because he is powerful and can offer you things.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

God isn't absent. He dwells in the souls of those who live in a state of grace. God is also present in the Eucharist.

Well that is still pretty absent, since the soul isn't a thing that has ever been observed.

You may think that god is in your soul, but since you have no idea where your soul is that is rather meaningless to this discussion.

Agent J

Question for the OP.

Are you refering exclusively to the Monotheist Abramhaic God?

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

The Bible is a progressive revelation.

A books which last pages where written nearly 2000 years ago can hardly be called progressive today.

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

If you skip the first half of any good book and try to finish it, you will have a hard time understanding the characters, the plot, and the ending. In the same way, the New Testament is only completely understood when it is seen as a fulfillment of the events, characters, laws, sacrificial system, covenants, and promises of the Old Testament.

Remind me of the Douglas Adams explanation of the 1st page of the bible..
"This is a work of fiction.. Any similarity to real people is..."

Personally i find myself bored to tears trying to drag myself through the bible...seriously someone should have designed a more engaging plot.


Aside from that.

If you where the Christian god would you really be in a hurry to come back after what happened the last time he paid us a visit? Knocked up a Virgin and get nailed to cross.... The fuss still hasnt died down 2000 years later...

Seriously though. The only was people would accept en mass the presence of a god(Any god) is with a large public display of power. Otherwise anyone claiming to be such would be locked up & treated as insane. Which is why if i was a christian i would be concered that if Jesus ever did show up again how would he not be shot full of drugs and given electroshock therapy or some such...

kelly1

Wicknight wrote:

I see no problem at all with knowing that God exists and refusing to worship him because of the atrocities he has committed.

You presume to know the mind of God. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. It's His prerogative.

kelly1

kelly1 wrote:

You presume to know the mind of God. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. It's His prerogative.

He doesn't need to know his mind to refer to mass killings

Scofflaw

kelly1 wrote:

You presume to know the mind of God. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. It's His prerogative.

Yes - and much the same has been said about every earthly dictator, too. People excused Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, by saying that they knew best for the country, that you couldn't judge them by the same standards as ordinary people, and anyway who were we to pretend we knew better?

regards,
Scofflaw

Agent J

kelly1 wrote:

You presume to know the mind of God. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. It's His prerogative.

It would seem that you are doing the presuming. How do you know what is his will/prerogative?

Also any chance of something which isnt a vague semi-scripture reply?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

You presume to know the mind of God.

As Bluewolf points out, his mind is irrelevant.

What he was thinking when he ordered his chosen people, the Hebrews, to commit genocide is not really that important, unless he wants to claim diminished capacity. Which I imagine is doubtful.

It would be like asking Pol Pot (avoiding the obvious Hitler reference) why he decided to empty the cities and kill all the middle class. Is there any reason he could give that would justify what he did? Of course not. So why is the reason important when deciding if one would follow Pol Pot?

kelly1 wrote:

The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. It's His prerogative.

Says you, a follower, a worshiper

I disagree, which is why I would not be a follower even if I knew God existed.

Like so many followers of tyrants (human or deities) you attempt to justify these actions as moral or necessary to both yourself and others around you. Of course he can because he is God isn't that convincing an argument.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote:

What he was thinking when he ordered his chosen people, the Hebrews, to commit genocide is not really that important

Where in the old testament does God order His people to commit genocide? I'm not terribly au fait with the OT to be honest.

Agent J

kelly1 wrote:

Where in the old testament does God order His people to commit genocide? I'm not terribly au fait with the OT to be honest.

He was a big fan of slavery though...

BrianCalgary

Agent J wrote:

He was a big fan of slavery though...

No, He just recognized slavery as a given and instructed us how to treat slaves, foreigners, widows and orphans.

Scofflaw

kelly1 wrote:

Where in the old testament does God order His people to commit genocide? I'm not terribly au fait with the OT to be honest.

Examples:

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2, NIV.

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16, NIV

The worldwide flood at the time of Noah as described in Genesis, chapters 6 to 8. From the description, it almost completely wiped out the human race, with the exception of Noah, his wife and sons and their wives.

The Passover incident described in Exodus chapters 11 and 12, in which all of the firstborn of all Egypt were slaughtered.

The conquest of Canaan, in which God ordered the Hebrews to completely exterminate the Canaanite people -- from the elderly to newborns and fetuses. This is described throughout the book of Joshua.

The near extermination of the entire tribe of Benjamin by the remaining 11 tribes, triggered by the serial rape and murder of a priest's concubine by a few Benjamites. See Judges, chapter 20.

etc etc...

cordially,
Scofflaw

humanji

BrianCalgary wrote:

No, He just recognized slavery as a given and instructed us how to treat slaves, foreigners, widows and orphans.

Sorry, off topic here, but I was just wondering, does the bible refer to all these as being on the same level, or are you saying that through out the bible it tells you how to treat these people?

Agent J

BrianCalgary wrote:

No, He just recognized slavery as a given and instructed us how to treat slaves, foreigners, widows and orphans.

Do you condone slavery?

Reading the below i would saw that the old testament goes beyond accepting it as a given.

Exodus 21.7 KJV

"And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do"

NI

"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do"

Lev 25.44 KJV
"Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

NIV

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves."

// Well aware i'm off topic. By all means split to a new thread....

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote:

Where in the old testament does God order His people to commit genocide? I'm not terribly au fait with the OT to be honest.

Plenty of places. For example -

Numbers 31 wrote:

14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 "Have you allowed all the women to live?" he asked them. 16 "They were the ones who followed Balaam's advice and were the means of turning the Israelites away from the LORD in what happened at Peor, so that a plague struck the LORD's people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

Now you can disagree if you like, but I would never worship a God who ordered (through Moses) such atrocities.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

No, He just recognized slavery as a given and instructed us how to treat slaves, foreigners, widows and orphans.

LOL :rolleyes:

Why was slavery "a given"

God can order people not to allow mildew in their homes but he can't out law slavery? Seriously?

BrianCalgary

Wicknight wrote:

LOL :rolleyes:

Why was slavery "a given"

God can order people not to allow mildew in their homes but he can't out law slavery? Seriously?

Becausew we are human and we like to have power over and mistreat people. it's has to do with the bit about rbeelling against God who wishes us to love God with all heart soul and mind, and to love our neighbours as ourselves.

Remember slavery then is not the same as slavery of the blacks in the US

Agent J

BrianCalgary wrote:

Remember slavery then is not the same as slavery of the blacks in the US

Ok, can i ask you to expand on that? I'm not looking to get at you over it but i'm genuinely interested in an explanation of the distinctions.

I'm viewing it from a pretty black and white point of view(No pun intended... ).

Did they get paid?
Could they leave?

If not then pretty hard to defend imho.

Zombrex

BrianCalgary wrote:

Becausew we are human and we like to have power over and mistreat people.

Well also like to murder people, yet for some reason God didn't send down commands that worked around that fact telling us that we could kinda sort of murder people if we liked. He straight out lawed it. Same will mildew.

BrianCalgary wrote:

Remember slavery then is not the same as slavery of the blacks in the US

You have said that before BC but we have been over this. While it is true that Jewish "slaves" had certain rights and could only work for a few years, the slavery described in other parts of the Bible, still condoned by God, was very much like slavery in the modern sense of the word. For example prisoners of war were taken and turned into force laborers, who had none of the rights of Jewish "slaves"

Run_to_da_hills

Wicknight wrote:

I see no problem at all with knowing that God exists and refusing to worship him because of the atrocities he has committed. That is not a god I would wish to worship, or a god I feel deserves worship from anyone, any more than I imagine you would wish to worship Satan simply because he is powerful and can offer you things

What atrocities? the flood?, Noah gave the people back then plenty of warning about the flood, he warned the people to repent and change their ways of wickedness, instead they took the piss out of him for building the ark then they all suffered the consequences.

The exact same happened in Sodom and Gomorrah, the crowd tried to rape the two messengers who tried to warn them of what was coming. God has warned us that the same will happen again and it will,

"Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens" Genesis 19:24.

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". Jude 1 vs 7.

philologos

SDooM wrote:

As the OP is an atheist I doubt he is going to take "cos the bible says so" as a legit argument...

The Bible is how we know about God and it is how we can tell you about him. Without the Bible we just simply cannot explain it. If you come to the Christian forum, you must be willing to accept an answer based on Scripture regardless of your personal beliefs, because the Bible is the our source for who God is and what he stands for.

Scofflaw

BrianCalgary wrote:

Becausew we are human and we like to have power over and mistreat people. it's has to do with the bit about rbeelling against God who wishes us to love God with all heart soul and mind, and to love our neighbours as ourselves.

So why is it now not acceptable? It was certainly regarded as acceptable by Christians only 150 years ago - indeed, Scripture was held to back it. So it's hardly the case that the New Testament significantly changed the picture, given nearly two millennia elapsed in between. Christ didn't mention it, unless you count "love your neighbour as yourself", which one can equally well apply to homosexuality.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Doctor DooM

Jakkass wrote:

The Bible is how we know about God and it is how we can tell you about him. Without the Bible we just simply cannot explain it. If you come to the Christian forum, you must be willing to accept an answer based on Scripture regardless of your personal beliefs, because the Bible is the our source for who God is and what he stands for.

yyyeaaaah, but the OP asked:


Q. Why would a god never show himself?, why would such a great, almighty and everliving god feel the need to hide, surely were god to make an odd appearance us humans would be very well behaved indeed for this would provide some support the existence of heaven/hell?

I believe he wanted more than "he did in the bible", which was, more or less, the original reply... thats all.

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

What atrocities? the flood?, Noah gave the people back then plenty of warning about the flood, he warned the people to repent and change their ways of wickedness, instead they took the piss out of him for building the ark then they all suffered the consequences.

The exact same happened in Sodom and Gomorrah, the crowd tried to rape the two messengers who tried to warn them of what was coming. God has warned us that the same will happen again and it will,

"Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens" Genesis 19:24.

"Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire". Jude 1 vs 7.

Somehow I for one am not comforted by a warning of death/torture just before the actual event
it certainly doesn't mean someone is right to do something like that just because they warned us first

Scofflaw

bluewolf wrote:

Somehow I for one am not comforted by a warning of death/torture just before the actual event
it certainly doesn't mean someone is right to do something like that just because they warned us first

Apart from the Israelis, of course. And the US.

politically,
Scofflaw

Zombrex

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

What atrocities?

Have any of you guys actually read the Old Testament?

Agent J

Wicknight wrote:

Have any of you guys actually read the Old Testament?

I'm trying... i really am. However its like wading through treacle....

Pinker

SDooM wrote:

yyyeaaaah, but the OP asked:


Q. Why would a god never show himself?, why would such a great, almighty and everliving god feel the need to hide, surely were god to make an odd appearance us humans would be very well behaved indeed for this would provide some support the existence of heaven/hell?

I believe he wanted more than "he did in the bible", which was, more or less, the original reply... thats all.

Thank you SDooM, I suppose I can hardly be surprised though

dan719

Agent J wrote:

I'm trying... i really am. However its like wading through treacle....

It's not treacle, it's a sea of blood and corpses your trying to get through.:cool:

philologos

Wicknight wrote:

Have any of you guys actually read the Old Testament?

Yes all from Genesis to Malachi.

Zombrex

Jakkass wrote:

Yes all from Genesis to Malachi.

Well can you explain to them where the genocide is (yes, I know you claim the genocide is justifiable)

MooseJam

he doesn't show himself because shock horror he doesn't actually exist :eek:

Excelsior

Going through a long line of prophets, God has been addressing our ancestors in different ways for centuries. Ultimately he spoke to us directly through his Son, who was fully God and fully Man, revealed in our midst and dwelling among us.

Asiaprod

MooseJam wrote:

he doesn't show himself because shock horror he doesn't actually exist :eek:

One more like this from you and you are baned

Note to all others here, read the Charter.