Saint Anthony

JuJuYNWA

Has anybody got any stories of praying to Saint Anthony to find lost stuff?

When I was growing up my Granny would swear by it and recently I have prayed to saint Anthony a couple of times and it has worked.

For example, me and the girlfriend were staying over in a hotel room up north and it was the morning after an extremely drunk night before. She couldnt find an expensive ring that she was wearing and after nearly two hours of searching the room, (including stripping down and going through each others clothes, taking the matresses off of the beds, and even taking the u bend off of the sink!) i said a quick prayer to Saint Anthony and promised 20 euros to the homeless. Within a minute a shout came from the next room and my girlfriend had found the ring in the really small pocket within a pocket in her jeans!

I've also prayed to Saint Anthony to find bank statements, phones, keys, and numerous other things. It has not failed to work any time.

Today my Granny bought me a book of prayers especially for Saint Anthony so i look forward to using it!

Run_to_da_hills

Personally I would not pray to a dead body in a grave. Consulting the dead is forbidden in the book of Duteronomy chapter 18 vs 9 to 12

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus", 2 Timothy 2 vs 5.

bleg

so does St. Anthony have god-like powers in that he reveals lost things to you?

as a christian i think you should consult your first commandment

The Mad Hatter

bleg wrote:

so does St. Anthony have god-like powers in that he reveals lost things to you?

as a christian i think you should consult your first commandment

If you lost something and someone else found it, would they be demonstrating 'god-like powers'?

bleg

The Mad Hatter wrote:

If you lost something and someone else found it, would they be demonstrating 'god-like powers'?

if somebody that was dead found something i lost.


i'm pretty sure that's a god-like power

The Mad Hatter

Thought Christians believed in eternal life?

This is all a bit silly anyhow...

It's a catholic thing.
St Anthony finding things for you would be a miracle of sorts and you either believe in miracles or not.
If your parents brought you up with a steadfast catholic faith ,you'd probably be sincere in praying to saints.
If you have the belief that they can do something for you,then coincidence will become a miracle.
Luck will become a miracle.
Fortune will become a miracle.

If you weren't or indeed if you follow a faith that is very literal in terms of following word for word what is in the bible,you'd probably scorn that element of catholicism.


I don't think catholics believe that saints have God like powers.I think they believe that God can work through saints.
Again you either believe that or you don't.
A catholic will simply tell you ,that it isn't your place or anybodies to second guess what God does and whether he chooses to work through saints or not.
It's just a belief and I guess like all beliefs,it's either right or it's wrong,it's something we won't know untill we die (or perhaps never if you don't believe in an after life).
Ergo in my opinion,dissing the saints is a pointless exercise except maybe unless it gives you a satisfaction that you are more right or your belief/disbelief is more valid than someone elses.
Though when you get down to that level,you are really truly in my opinion getting down to pointlessness.

Agent J

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

Personally I would not pray to a dead body in a grave. Consulting the dead is forbidden in the book of Duteronomy chapter 18 vs 9 to 12

"For there is one God and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus", 2 Timothy 2 vs 5.

Now if you are going to quote the old testiment. One word.

Leviticus.


I believe the tradition with saints is that you ask them to pray with you not to them. Also they should be in heaven enjoying every lasting life according to christian doctrine right?

Spyral

you ask holy people to pray for you on earth right ?
you believe that some people are in heaven right ?
ergo you can ask them to pray for you and they are in a better position to do so one would think.

Run_to_da_hills

Agent J wrote:

Now if you are going to quote the old testiment. One word.
Leviticus.

I believe the tradition with saints is that you ask them to pray with you not to them. Also they should be in heaven enjoying every lasting life according to christian doctrine right?

Praying to dead people, asking them to intervene on our behalf, is divination whether it is identified correctly as an occult practice or is cloaked with “Christian” terms. It does not make a difference. Divination, regardless of its trappings, remains sinful.

Agent J

Web defination for divination from princeton

# successful conjecture by unusual insight or good luck
# prophecy: a prediction uttered under divine inspiration
# the art or gift of prophecy (or the pretense of prophecy) by supernatural means


Not seeing the direct connection. Please provide a source for your defination.

Correct me if i am wrong but the saints arent really dead. The whole eternal life thing?

And again the Catholic church would argue that you are not and should not be praying to them. You are asking them to help you pray to God. Its like praying with your local priest or pastor....

Run_to_da_hills

Agent J wrote:

Web defination for divination from princeton

# successful conjecture by unusual insight or good luck
# prophecy: a prediction uttered under divine inspiration
# the art or gift of prophecy (or the pretense of prophecy) by supernatural means


Not seeing the direct connection. Please provide a source for your defination.

Correct me if i am wrong but the saints arent really dead. The whole eternal life thing?

And again the Catholic church would argue that you are not and should not be praying to them. You are asking them to help you pray to God. Its like praying with your local priest or pastor....

A necromancer is one who seeks to contact the dead and it is a form of devining. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy http://www.helium.com/tm/241131/necromancy-divination-necromancy-speak Much of what is attributed to saints is false. For example, St Philomena was proclaimed a saint by Leo XII, and Pope Gregory XVI blessed one of her images. Rome later admitted that she never existed and in 1961 struck her off the list of saints.

Praying to “saints” is a device used to stop people from praying to God and turns people away from developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This false doctrine teaches that dead saints are more approachable and helpful than Jesus Christ is. Prayers to saints are contrary to the Christ’s instruction to pray, “After this manner pray ye: ‘Our Father’ (Matthew 6:9).

There is no Bible example of praying to saints, nor is there any Bible example of them having power to answer prayer. We pray to God the Father with Jesus as our only intercessor. Again as I said in my first post on this subject, “There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).

Agent J

There is no bible example of using computers either.

I'm not going to look up the verse unless you really want me to.
Isnt the promise of Jesus one of eternal life therefore the saints arent really dead in the 1st place?

If you are going to argue the saints are really dead then so is Jesus.

Example of now defunct staints is aside from the point. The only evidence of a lot of people in the old testament..... is the old testament.

And once more, The distinction is that you pray with the saints not to them. Granted most people dont use the distinction but offical catholic line is that.

Spyral

no you pray to them

pray means ASK not WORSHIP

I can ask my dad for 50 euro doesnt mean he'll give it to me or that i worship him.

Similarly I can ask my mum to ask god to help me.

now if my mum is in heaven why can't I ask her ?

Any traditional prayer to a saint is generally along the lines of "o holy john who was a good man etc ask god to help me in x, y and z so that someday I might get to heaven amen"

really run to da hills you're just living in a box as evidenced from your response on other threads if you actually read half of the stuff then you wouldnt be half as wrong

Agent J

We'll have to agree to disagree.

My basis for what i am saying is based of a radio interview with Archbishop Martin. He used the example of asking a saint to stand beside you and pray with you to God. He spefically said that you shouldnt techinically pray to them.

humanji

In fairness, does it matter? If God is as almighty as he is supposed to be, do you not think he wouldn't mind/care? If someone prays to a saint, God would be able to tell the difference between someone seeking guidence and someone worshipping a different god. Seriously, there are better things to worry about. Your god will take care of the little things.

Agent J

Hey some of us like a polemical sparring match.

humanji wrote:

If someone prays to a saint, God would be able to tell the difference between someone seeking guidence and someone worshipping a different god.

How exactly? Obviously i dont exactly expect an answer.

But think about it for a second. The Argument God will know wont holdmuch weight.

It reminds me of the Inquitor line when asked who should they spare of the Cathars in southern france.

"Kill them all, God will claim his own"

Or some such..

Run_to_da_hills

Spyral wrote:

no you pray to them

pray means ASK not WORSHIP

I can ask my dad for 50 euro doesnt mean he'll give it to me or that i worship him.

Similarly I can ask my mum to ask god to help me.

now if my mum is in heaven why can't I ask her ?

Any traditional prayer to a saint is generally along the lines of "o holy john who was a good man etc ask god to help me in x, y and z so that someday I might get to heaven amen"

really run to da hills you're just living in a box as evidenced from your response on other threads if you actually read half of the stuff then you wouldnt be half as wrong

If you only read your Bible instead of listening to "old wives tales" you would not be doing exactly oposite to what the Bible is telling you to do. Do you need glasses? ie once again, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5

BrianCalgary

Spyral wrote:

you ask holy people to pray for you on earth right ?
you believe that some people are in heaven right ?
ergo you can ask them to pray for you and they are in a better position to do so one would think.

The question is however, if they are not omnipresent, how can they hear our prayers?

Agent J

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

Do you need glasses? ie once again, “For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" 1 Timothy 2:5

I certainly hope they dont otherwise....

"16 The LORD said to Moses, 17 "Say to Aaron: 'For the generations to come none of your descendants who has a defect may come near to offer the food of his God. 18 No man who has any defect may come near: no man who is blind or lame, disfigured or deformed;"

Lev 21:20

KJV
"Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken"


NIV
"or who is hunchbacked or dwarfed, or who has any eye defect, or who has festering or running sores or damaged testicles"

Brian Calgary wrote:

The question is however, if they are not omnipresent, how can they hear our prayers?

Fair point.

It could be argued that if God didnt want them to hear you they wouldnt. But then the point would be why bother in the 1st place....

Do you think your dead relatives can hear/see you after they are gone?

Excelsior

Agent J wrote:

Now if you are going to quote the old testiment. One word.

Leviticus.

I don't follow. What exactly does this one word, the name of a 3200 year old constitutional document held sacred by Jews, Christians and Muslims have to do with this discussion?

Moderators, guys, I don't want to harass you but seriously this should just be ruled out of court.

Agent J

Excelsior wrote:

I don't follow. What exactly does this one word, the name of a 3200 year old constitutional document held sacred by Jews, Christians and Muslims have to do with this discussion?

Moderators, guys, I don't want to harass you but seriously this should just be ruled out of court.

Allow me to explain.

Anyone who quotes the old testament to me but does not accept every single one of the rules in Leviticus is picking and choosing from the bible.

If they do accept it fine but personally the death penalty is off the books for shellfish in this day and age....

And Responding to A point in A post and then calling for moderator intervention is bit off now.

BrianCalgary

Agent J wrote:

Fair point.

It could be argued that if God didnt want them to hear you they wouldnt. But then the point would be why bother in the 1st place....

Do you think your dead relatives can hear/see you after they are gone?

That I don't know. I would conjecture that they would be kept abreast of what I'm up to.

At funerals they talk about how the deceased is watching the outpouring of love.

Excelsior

No Christian reading Leviticus is expected to put people to death for eating shellfish. It would be useful to search a resource more stable than atheists.com or whatever bulletin board you visited before dismissing Christian belief.

Let me be clear so we don't have to go over this in the months ahead: It is a complete and utter fabrication to imagine that Christians in claiming the Scriptures as authoritative expect to implement the guidelines you vaguely refer to. It is a misconception so grand that I can only assume you are utterly unfamiliar with the text of Leviticus and more fatally to your position, completely ignorant of the words and ministry of Jesus.

The reason the moderators should cut this nonsense out (and I don't mean to suggest you are being intentionally ignorant here or anything of the sort) is that it has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

Love2love

Just a tad off topic but it is about St Anthony...

I do Novena's to St Anthony all the time and I'm heading to France soon. Now there is a story about St Anthony appearing at 2 different churches at the same time in France. The first being the Church of Limoges and the other is several kilometres away. Since I'm going to Limoges while I am there I am planning to go on a Tuesday for my Novena but what I would like to know is if anybody knows where the other church is????

Thanks

Agent J

Excelsior wrote:

No Christian reading Leviticus is expected to put people to death for eating shellfish. It would be useful to search a resource more stable than atheists.com or whatever bulletin board you visited before dismissing Christian belief.

Let me be clear so we don't have to go over this in the months ahead: It is a complete and utter fabrication to imagine that Christians in claiming the Scriptures as authoritative expect to implement the guidelines you vaguely refer to. It is a misconception so grand that I can only assume you are utterly unfamiliar with the text of Leviticus and more fatally to your position, completely ignorant of the words and ministry of Jesus.

The reason the moderators should cut this nonsense out (and I don't mean to suggest you are being intentionally ignorant here or anything of the sort) is that it has nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

My source is my King James Bible about 1 meter away from my computer currently. Or www.biblegateway.com for comparative study. I have never visited aethists.com

I wont bring the old testament into a debate 1st. I will however use it and the second someone else brings it in to justify their position as some did in this thread i will trot out the standard argument about levitius or exodus or which ever one is too inconvienet to still hold true.

Moral of the story?

Dont use the old testament if you dont expect it to be used back.

Excelsior

How did you use it back? I mean seriously, do you think you and your King James Bible and your one word sentences are really going to awaken us to new findings?

I have often preached on Leviticus. It is the most fascinating political document I have ever read and I believe it to be at the heart of any Christian response to injustice, especially economic injustice. It has nothing at all to do with St. Anthony or the topic address in these posts. So just drop the assumption all us God-botherers are ignorant buffoons and stay on the subject.

Asiaprod

Ladies and gentlemen, lets get back on topic.
We are discussing St. Anthony.

PDN

I just re-read the original post. Does this necessarily prove that St Anthony is good at finding things? Might it just mean that he is the patron saint of drunken fornicators?

Tim Robbins

JuJuYNWA wrote:

Has anybody got any stories of praying to Saint Anthony to find lost stuff?

When I was growing up my Granny would swear by it and recently I have prayed to saint Anthony a couple of times and it has worked.

For example, me and the girlfriend were staying over in a hotel room up north and it was the morning after an extremely drunk night before. She couldnt find an expensive ring that she was wearing and after nearly two hours of searching the room, (including stripping down and going through each others clothes, taking the matresses off of the beds, and even taking the u bend off of the sink!) i said a quick prayer to Saint Anthony and promised 20 euros to the homeless. Within a minute a shout came from the next room and my girlfriend had found the ring in the really small pocket within a pocket in her jeans!

I've also prayed to Saint Anthony to find bank statements, phones, keys, and numerous other things. It has not failed to work any time.

Today my Granny bought me a book of prayers especially for Saint Anthony so i look forward to using it!

Hi,
I lost my faith at a young age, but would occasionally pray to Saint Anthony in times of desperation. The success rate has been extremly high.
The best time was when I lost my passport the night before holidays and spent all night looking for it. I had an early flight the next day.
I asked St Anthony for help and found my passport.
I would prefer not to get into an analysis of the cause and effect here but would just like to say that is what happened.
Rgds
Tim

Splendour

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

Praying to “saints” is a device used to stop people from praying to God and turns people away from developing a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. This false doctrine teaches that dead saints are more approachable and helpful than Jesus Christ is. Prayers to saints are contrary to the Christ’s instruction to pray, “After this manner pray ye: ‘Our Father’ (Matthew 6:9).

There is no Bible example of praying to saints, nor is there any Bible example of them having power to answer prayer. We pray to God the Father with Jesus as our only intercessor. Again as I said in my first post on this subject, “There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus” (1 Timothy 2:5).

I agree totally with RTTH here.Either God was telling the truth or He was lying? You decide....
Bizzare though this may sound to non believers (and possibly some believers), this is actually a ploy of the devil's to turn our thoughts away from Jesus. He (the devil), will use the most subtle of ways to get our focus off Jesus. It's not St. Anthony who's the finder but rather Satan. And what he does is quite accepted & 'legit'-clever eh?

Run_to_da_hills

Satan uses the same ploy to destract us from communicating directly with Christ by getting us to pray to Mary.

Run_to_da_hills

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

Satan uses the same ploy to destract us from communicating directly with Christ by getting us to pray to Mary.

Are you serious?

Scofflaw

bluewolf wrote:

Are you serious?

I'm afraid they are deadly serious.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

Scofflaw wrote:

I'm afraid they are deadly serious.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Some people do like seeing enemies everywhere, particularly when those enemies "want" them to do things they normally don't anyway...

Run_to_da_hills

bluewolf wrote:

Are you serious?

Yes I am serious, when you are praying to Mary you are praying to a dead body in a grave. As I said before the Bible speaks out about communicating with the dead. (Deuteronomy 18:10). There is absolutly no mention at all in scripture of Marys assumption into heaven.

Jesus specifically said "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me". John 14vs6, If he said there was a way through Mary he would have said it. Jesus died on the cross for our salvation, Mary did not.

Agent J

Ok after reading the Bible myself and a brief over PM discussion with Exlesior i recind my earlier stance on Leviticus. It has some useful things in it and i wont use it as a bashing tool anymore en masse.

I still reserve the right to use the individual references in context though

I must admit im only going through Deut at the moment and i dont like skipping ahead however having said that...

Deut 18.10

"There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch."

Not seeing a word here about praying to dead bodies unless you want to take an interepration of Divination to be such which means you are putting your own spin on the bible. Where in the Bible does it say that using the saints to stand with you and pray is satan?Spefically and not your own interpretation on it.

How do people know that you telling people NOT to ask saints to stand with them and pray isnt Satan doing exactly what you claim.. IE confusing and misdirecting people...

I would also wonder which category of law that falls into. The whole passage looks pretty cerimonial to me to be honest.. If its moral then i would remind you of your obligations under Exodus 22.18

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"

How many witches have you killed? There are quite a few in the country if you look....

Also when i push further it calls everything in 18.10 an "Abomination". Ok fair enough.
But are we in a code shellfish?Lev 11.10

As for the Mary being a body in the ground.

Are you in anyway serious? You really think of everyone that Jesus wouldnt have taken his own mother up to heaven? Leave the Bible out of it for a second. It never mentions about Jesus going to the toilet but i think we can all assume he did.....

If the Woman born without Original Sin didnt make it to heaven then rest of you are pretty damn screwed.

PDN

Agent J wrote:

the Woman born without Original Sin

And where are you getting that from?

Agent J

Je suis L'immaculee conception

Have i translated it right?

Failling that the rest of the point still stands.

<Edit>

If the Mother of Jesus didnt make it to heaven the rest of you are screwed....

Either way you cut it....

robindch

Agent J wrote:

I still reserve the right to use the individual references in context though

But how do you work out which ones to use? Are they the ones which support beliefs that you've acquired elsewhere? Or something else?

Agent J

Isn't that the 64,000USD question?
How do any of you know which ones to use?
Which ones are ok and which ones aren't?

I dont want to go into it further here because i have already been guilty of helping steering this thread of course. If you want to start a new thread on it?

PDN

Agent J wrote:

Je suis L'immaculee conception

Have i translated it right?

Well, we won't quibble over the odd missing acute accent. But it won't cut much ice with those of us who base our beliefs on the Bible rather than the visions of Bernadette.

If the Mother of Jesus didnt make it to heaven the rest of you are screwed.

There's a difference between believing that Mary gets to heaven and believing in her bodily assumption. The biblical teaching, as I understand it, is that Mary gets to heaven just like the rest of us - as a sinner she put her faith in Christ, her spirit went to heaven when she died, and her body will be raised in a general resurrection at some time in the future. But I suspect we're drifting way off the subject.

Agent J

Swinging back on topic. Must not be anymore off topic...

I listened to the Catholic Archbishop talk about this(The whole praying to saints) on the radio and i'm not seeing the conflict here.

Jesus is the only way to God.

Ok fair enough but that doesnt mean you cant ask for someone to stand with you while you pray even if it is in a figerutive sense. You dont have to do a lot of things in Chrisitainity .. hell according to some you dont have to do anything accept just accept Gods Grace.

The way it was explained is that you ask them to pray with you . You don't pray to them because that would be in conflict with the bible.

BrianCalgary

Agent J wrote:

The way it was explained is that you ask them to pray with you . You don't pray to them because that would be in conflict with the bible.

The problem is that they can't hear you. The departed saints are not omnipresent, so you could be praying to St. Anthony in Ireland, whilst I am praying to him in Calgary. He could only hear one of us.

Why not focus your prayers to Christ who will hear and can answer?

MooseJam

are there a lot of protestants on this thread, is that why you all are so set against saints and Mary

BrianCalgary

MooseJam wrote:

are there a lot of protestants on this thread, is that why you all are so set against saints and Mary

Nothing at all against Mary. She is to be venerated. The saints all had magnificent contributions to Christ and His church throughout the ages and should be respected for such and for their lives devotion to God.

Yet thre is not Biblical reason to pray to any of them as stated above, they are not omnipresent and just can't hear prayers, yet Christ is omnipresent and can hear.

And it Christ who we are to go through and to worship.

Splendour

Agent J wrote:

The way it was explained is that you ask them to pray with you . You don't pray to them because that would be in conflict with the bible.

An example of a prayer to St. Anthony would go something like this...

'Dear St.Anthony, I beg you to please please help me find my keys as I'm seriously late for work. I promise to give 10 euro to the local homeless charity if you do this for me...'

If according to the Catholic Archbishop one were to ask the saint to pray with you, the prayer would go something like this...

'Dear Jesus, I come before you with St. Anthony at my side to beg you to help me find my keys as I'm seriously late for work.I promise to give 10 euro to the local homeless charity if you do this for me...'

Now I doubt it very much if anyone prays to any saint in this manner. I know as a former Catholic, I never invoked the name of Jesus first when 'praying' to a saint.



"When you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, or one conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead or all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and because of these abominations the Lord your God drives them out from before you." (Deuteronomy 18:9)

MooseJam

BrianCalgary wrote:

Nothing at all against Mary. She is to be venerated. The saints all had magnificent contributions to Christ and His church throughout the ages and should be respected for such and for their lives devotion to God.

Yet thre is not Biblical reason to pray to any of them as stated above, they are not omnipresent and just can't hear prayers, yet Christ is omnipresent and can hear.

And it Christ who we are to go through and to worship.

Well what do catholics do, they pray to saints don't they, are they doing this in error ? whats the official roman position on saints, I never understood them do be honest, does sainthood bestow something upon the dead, do they get better treatment in heaven or more powers or something or is it just they are a posterboy for Catholicism.

Run_to_da_hills

MooseJam wrote:

are there a lot of protestants on this thread, is that why you all are so set against saints and Mary

I have absolutly nothing against Mary I would rather find the truth about her in the Bible than be misled by some religion.

Mary was a humble godly woman and not some monster that she has been made out to be ie. the "Mother of God". "Queen of Heaven" Mary was a hell bound sinner like the rest of us. ie "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" Romans 3vs23. Mary also needed Christ as her saviour like the rest of us. "And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour (Luke 1 46, 47)

I would also like to believe she lived a natural life and never remained a Virgin after the Birth of Christ as would any normal husband and wife. God never intended Mary to be Josephs room mate. "Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? "And His sisters, are they not all with us?" (Matthew 13:55-56)

I do have an issue with the so called "Saints" that have been canonised by ordinary men from religious institutions that do not appear in the Bible, this is also one of Satans ploys to destract us from the truth of the word of God.

BrianCalgary

MooseJam wrote:

Well what do catholics do, they pray to saints don't they, are they doing this in error ?.

I believe thay are.

MooseJam wrote:

whats the official roman position on saints, I never understood them do be honest, does sainthood bestow something upon the dead, do they get better treatment in heaven or more powers or something or is it just they are a posterboy for Catholicism.

From my knowledge and not being raised Catholic, I understand that sainthood is bestowed upon someone after death. It is an honour to someone who has served the Roman Church throughout their lives. I liken it to th Roman Catholic Hall of Fame.

Biblically however a saint is one who has accepted Christ as Lord. That would make a saint and Excelsior and Jakkass and Runtodahills, and JC and Wolfsbane: saints.

MooseJam

Run_to_da_hills wrote:

I do have an issue with the so called "Saints" that have been canonised by ordinary men from religious institutions that do not appear in the Bible, this is also one of Satans ploys to destract us from the truth of the word of God.

Is it not possible to just believe the practice wrong, must you call it satans work, it gives a bad impression