Eternal life - the science

hiorta

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVtHBEZbN6I

Dave!

Can anybody gimme a link/source that'll confirm that the human body is made up of 'waves'? Cos I'm not a biologist, but I don't recall learning anything about that in school...

Also, his claim that 'the establishment' is suppressing this evidence is absolute nonsense. If there was even a sniff of concrete evidence (as he contends) then every church in the world would jump all over this and claim it for their own. There are all sorts of moronic pseudo-science 'universities' that fund this idiotic research, but they've yet to make any discoveries.

I've made it through the first video... I suspect that this bloke is whoring a book...

stormkeeper

Well, it's known that every living thing gives off an electro-magnetic field (and also has an aura), though if that's anything to do with the "waves" mentioned (I haven't seen the video at this time) I couldn't tell you.

Talliesin

DaveMcG wrote:

Can anybody gimme a link/source that'll confirm that the human body is made up of 'waves'? Cos I'm not a biologist, but I don't recall learning anything about that in school...

That all matter is waves is the opinion of many physicists, so ultimately the human body is too.

That little factoid is being made way too much of.

It's a common approach by people who want to "prove" metaphysical beliefs through science and yet don't know much science.

Ultimately the result is that their metaphysics becomes as bad as their physics.

Dave!

He's claiming that they currently have the mathematics to prove there's an afterlife. They're going to set up a televised experiment where a recently deceased, internationally famous person will be brought back to life!

He says he has the experimental proof of survival, and he knows where the next world is! Sweet!

...but he won't tell us He keeps going on about how all of this stuff is going to be revealed in the future, as soon as he can cut through the prejudiced media who are conspiring to suppress this ground-breaking discovery..... Why not show us an equation to give us a taste, buddy?

What a crock of sh*t........

HONESTLY PEOPLE, DO NOT BOTHER YOUR ARSE WATCHING THIS!!!

We can all just wait patiently for this televised experiment :rolleyes:

Zillah

stormkeeper wrote:

Well, it's known that every living thing gives off an electro-magnetic field (and also has an aura)

Living things do indeed have a very weak EM field...but what kind of aura are you talking about? Personally I don't believe in any sort of aura in the spiritualist sense, but I always assumed that even the psychic aura people talk of was either being able to see the EM field or just a way of expressing a persons thoughts and emotions visually. I didn't think psychics claimed the aura was physically there, merely a representation of something else.

DaveMcG wrote:

Can anybody gimme a link/source that'll confirm that the human body is made up of 'waves'? Cos I'm not a biologist, but I don't recall learning anything about that in school...

All matter is composed of waves in terms of quantum theory...but I don't see how that pertains to anything paranormal.

EDIT:

Ok, I watched the video...
So...apparently Eisteinian relativity is wrong...because of quantum theory...
The man has no idea what he's talking about. They use relativity all the time, for sattelites and communications with spacecraft. He then asserts that sub atomic particles have a dual wave/particle nature...therefore there is an invisible soul that leaves the body at death.

I'm sorry, but whatever spiritual beliefs people have is fine, they're entitled to them, but I have to strongly put this forward: What this man is saying has nothing whatsoever to do with science. Its like he read about some scientiffic stuff and then started playing word games to support his own beliefs. Its nonesense.

Talliesin

Zillah wrote:

Personally I don't believe in any sort of aura in the spiritualist sense, but I always assumed that even the psychic aura people talk of was either being able to see the EM field or just a way of expressing a persons thoughts and emotions visually. I didn't think psychics claimed the aura was physically there, merely a representation of something else.

Oh, quite a few people would say the aura is "there". "Physically there" depends on just how precisely you are using the term, I'd say it's "physically there" in the colloquial sense but not in any scientific sense - I don't ever expect it to be measurable by instruments.

Zillah wrote:

So...apparently Eisteinian relativity is wrong...because of quantum theory...
The man has no idea what he's talking about. They use relativity all the time, for sattelites and communications with spacecraft.

This is a favourite axe of many who write about science with a wish to appear more knowledgeable than they are (or a belief that they are that knowledgeable).

Firstly, "Einstein was wrong" holds to a certain extent - he didn't have the whole picture and science has moved on.

Secondly, the popular history of science is one of revolutions - the great revolutionary moments in the history of science are portrayed as if they are immense "bangs" which clears away all that stood before, when the truth is less dramatic.

Hence these two end up being combined illogically into a complete dismissal of what stood before (similarly, Einstein showed that Newton was wrong, but Newton's mechanics are also used in dealing with satellites).

Zillah wrote:

He then asserts that sub atomic particles have a dual wave/particle nature...therefore there is an invisible soul that leaves the body at death.

Well, obviously

I think the roots of this are the fact that whatever scientific understanding any of us has influences our general world view (as one would expect). As such it influences are metaphors and choice of vocabulary. There is also a natural shift of words into and out of both ways; science uses words in more specific ways or in accordance with a view it didn't originally belong to (e.g. "element") or steals them outright (e.g. "chemistry" - it's poetical meaning pre-dates the scientific) and everyone borrows from scientific sense. Similarly occult vocabulary does the same thing.

It's all well and good until people start treating both senses like the same thing. The classic case at the moment would be "energy". When Aristotle used the word he meant the forcefulness of an expression. Many changes happened since but the word has now, as well as several colloquial meanings, a strong scientific meaning and a strong (if vaguer) occult/psychic/paranormal meaning (a catch-all for chi, orgone, od, prana, mana, etc.). And that's fine. However, we then get people applying maxims from scientific understanding of energy to the occult sense of the word and back again, and that's just rubbish (arguing that there could be a connection between the two is one thing, assuming it another).

Zillah wrote:

What this man is saying has nothing whatsoever to do with science. Its like he read about some scientiffic stuff and then started playing word games to support his own beliefs. Its nonesense.

And in having tied his metaphysics so strongly to physics he has to get both right to get the other right. If one part is nonsense then then other part is too.

hiorta

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/scientists/essen/essen.html

Dave!

Have you got any views on this nonsense yourself, hiorta?

hiorta

Hi Dave. I do indeed and have been looking at it since I was a wee boy - I'm now nearing 73.
I disagree that it is nonsense, basically because of so many experiences.
It was once considered nonsense - punishable by death - to even contemplate the possibility that the Earth is anything other than flat.

This is the place of illusion, many of them are now known as such as human knowledge has grown and evolved.

I have no interest in 'converting' anyone to any way of thinking, or for any reason - that is the province of religion - but the enquiring mind leads to treasures untold.

dubtom

I know nothing of science,although his revelations are interesting he really doesn't back any of it up. This video was made in 04', surely a media company,even the bbc, would jump at the chance to video a solid aparition or six, take fingerprints, discuss stuff with spirits etc. In this day and age of anything goes on TV his claims of conspiricy to stop the 'truth' coming out just don't add up.Most media outlets,be they paper or film,care about making the money not whether what their reporting is true or not.It's been 3 years,where are the video's and pictures. Surley a video of a boy of nine who died 20 years ago,standing with his parents,with impartial witnesses,couldn't be to hard to accomplish,unless of course it's all bull.

Dave!

hiorta wrote:

Hi Dave. I do indeed and have been looking at it since I was a wee boy - I'm now nearing 73.
I disagree that it is nonsense, basically because of so many experiences.
It was once considered nonsense - punishable by death - to even contemplate the possibility that the Earth is anything other than flat.

This is the place of illusion, many of them are now known as such as human knowledge has grown and evolved.

I have no interest in 'converting' anyone to any way of thinking, or for any reason - that is the province of religion - but the enquiring mind leads to treasures untold.

I guess that's fair enough mate

Talliesin

hiorta wrote:

I disagree that it is nonsense, basically because of so many experiences.

What experiences could you have had that lead you to believe that the existence of an immortal soul is proven by quantum theory?

I believe in life after death, but I still think that video is nonsense.

Sapien

hiorta wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVtHBEZbN6I

Upon reading the thread title on the front page, I assumed it was a reference to this, or something related to it. (Quite an excellent talk, from a very interesting (all connotations intended) chap.) Really, one would rather it had been.

This Mr Roll seems to be a common or garden conspiracy nut, heavy on the paranoia, light on the evidence. We all know about the spiritualist craze of the turn of the 19th - 20th century, and we all know that a handful of professional scientists gave it their backing. He doesn't seem to be talking about anything other than common mediumship.

I'm a physicist. I've never heard of Ronald Pearson, and, as far as I'm aware, the "Aether" that was debunked in the 1920's remains an unused theory. Einstein's modern detractors have a somewhat more sophisticated theoretical arsenal than this, and Mr Roll's candid statements about the ingenuous mistakenness of Relativity are a little laughable. He deigns to explain wave-particle duality in "layman's terms", and, indeed, it couldn't be more obvious that he himself is an expert layman.

Quantum Mechanics has long fed the fevered unscience of the enthusiastic amateur attempting to wedge mysticism into empiricism, and I'm afraid this is a second-rate attempt at that.

Zillah

hiorta wrote:

Hi Dave. I do indeed and have been looking at it since I was a wee boy - I'm now nearing 73.

Wow, cool. You're like, the oldest person I've spoken with online...

I disagree that it is nonsense, basically because of so many experiences.

Obviously your experiences convince you that there is life after death...but thats not what this guy is saying. He's arguing that Quantum Mechanics supports his belief in life after death...which just isn't true. I can't imagine the life experiences that have convinced you of that.

It was once considered nonsense - punishable by death - to even contemplate the possibility that the Earth is anything other than flat.

Good scientists are always very quick to admit when they are wrong. Thats the nature of Science, to come to conclusions based on evidence. Hence scientists have a long history of proving each other wrong when new evidence is introduced. The problem is that the fellow in this video isn't introducing new evidence, he's just lieing.

Talliesin

Zillah wrote:

Good scientists are always very quick to admit when they are wrong. Thats the nature of Science, to come to conclusions based on evidence.

Plenty of good scientists are very slow to admit when they are wrong, since they are human and have egos. Newton was particularly notorious (the bunny-boiler of the scientific world) but almost everyone who has made their name with some theory or discovery will resist it being disproven.

Zillah wrote:

The problem is that the fellow in this video isn't introducing new evidence, he's just lieing.

Yep, that's the crux of it. He isn't even lying well, though he may have convinced himself.

Zillah

Talliesin wrote:

Plenty of good scientists are very slow to admit when they are wrong, since they are human and have egos.

Ok, the "best" scientists!

Zombrex

hiorta wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVtHBEZbN6I

Heavy on the nonsense, quite light on the science

Zombrex

hiorta wrote:

It was once considered nonsense - punishable by death - to even contemplate the possibility that the Earth is anything other than flat.

And ... ?

Are you suggest that because of this everything else, no matter how nonsensical, is now to be no longer considered nonsense?

hiorta wrote:

This is the place of illusion, many of them are now known as such as human knowledge has grown and evolved.

Interesting that you mentioned evolution.

What evolutionary purpose does a life after death serve? How would it have evolved? If anyone suggested scientific "evidence" for life after death these are the first questions I would start asking. Inquiring mind and all that.

hiorta wrote:

but the enquiring mind leads to treasures untold.

Only if one considers the truth itself to be a treasure. A lot of people find the truth unsettling and discomforting, and therefore stay well clear of it, like this man on YouTube.