River line

cardshark202

Villain is 25.5/5.3/1.9 over 3k hands or so. He is obv bad, I have been raising his openlimps a lot, and he has been folding or calling and folding the flop everytime. This is the first time I have limped behind him, mainly because the SB is 3bet allin happy(but quite passive otherwise). Villain is generally quite passive postflop too, though I would expect him to bet any decent ace on the turn or two pair+ obv.

Noble Poker 2.00/4.00, hand converted by the iPoker Converter at Talking-Poker

saw flop

Button Hero ($446.50)
SB ($147.00)
BB BB ($491.50)
UTG ($673.80)
UTG+1 ($689.37)
CO CO ($400.00)

Preflop: Hero is on the Button with 5 6
2 folds, CO calls 4.00, Hero calls 4.00, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop (14.00) J A T
BB checks, CO bets 8.00, Hero calls 8.00, 1 fold.

Turn (30.00) 5
CO bets 18.00, Hero calls 18.00.

River (70.00) 5
CO bets 42.00

meathman 007

raise to about 120 - doubt he has jj, aa or 1010 or kq - might have limped with a5 suited - if he pushes all in to your reraise, its a tough spot

valor

$150/fold

Theresalwaysone

meathman 007 wrote:

raise to about 120 - doubt he has jj, aa or 1010 or kq - might have limped with a5 suited - if he pushes all in to your reraise, its a tough spot

I dont think you can raise here without a plan for if/when you get reraised?

I make it 130-150 Fold to a shove.

meathman 007

Theresalwaysone wrote:

I dont think you can raise here without a plan for if/when you get reraised?

I make it 130-150 Fold to a shove.

i said it was a tough spot, my plan would be to reraise and probobly fold to the all in push - depends on read obviously

Theresalwaysone

meathman 007 wrote:

i said it was a tough spot, my plan would be to reraise and probobly fold to the all in push - depends on read obviously

Misunderstanding. My bad.


I don't think its a tough spot if you have a plan to fold to a shove?

meathman 007

Theresalwaysone wrote:

Misunderstanding. My bad.


I don't think its a tough spot if you have a plan to fold to a shove?

tough spot because of the op's read on the player - ive seen a lot of donks push in this spot with 2 pair so i dont think its an insta-fold considering the villain - but i would probobly fold to the shove

mdwexford

Make it 140 and call a shove

cardshark202

Yep pretty standard raise/fold really imo. Bit of a waste of a thread maybe. I didn't think he would shove many hands I beat if I raised. I made a mistake in this hand though cos I only minraised, instead of making it about 3x his bet, hence the post. Really scraping the barrel to find interesting hands atm lol. I need to play more!

valor

calling a shove after raising would be pretty bad

mdwexford

Surely he is capable of shoving A-J and A-10 in this spot.

Also if you are planning to fold to a shove are you not just turning your hand into a bluff, is it not better to just call if thats your plan. Although i suppose sometimes A-K will pay you off now the board has paired.

Theresalwaysone

mdwexford wrote:

Make it 140 and call a shove

Why call a shove?

Theresalwaysone

I think if your planning on calling a shove, why not shove yourself instead of putting yourself in a tough spot?

No?

fuzzbox

Make it 200, might as well try to get max value out of the monkey.

mdwexford

Because we are never getting a hand that beats us to fold, if we get called we are beaten. Raising gives him a chance to bluff/make a move with a hand we can beat.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote:

No. If we shove we should only ever get called when we are beat. So, despite the fact that we sometimes get put in a tough spot, we need to make a raise of some description that isn't a minraise or an all - in bet. This is because it will help us to get paid by hands we beat.

Additionally, he may shove over our raise with hands we beat or in a mistaken attempt to bluff because he is bad. By raising we give him some extra scope to make an extraordinary mistake - if we shove he has to be spectacularly bad before we get paid.

Yup, understood. Cheers.

Zab

At first I thought we had the best hand in our range, which might have made it interesting if a thinking player shoved over our river raise. Of course, villain really doesn't look like a thinking player, and I suppose we might over limp A6s the odd time. TBH, SB has to be pretty damn 3-bet happy for me not to pot this preflop.

mdwexford wrote:

Surely he is capable of shoving A-J and A-10 in this spot.

If villain shoves there's no way he has these hands often enough for us to call. That goes for most villains, but especially this type of guy. If he shoves I'd say TT or KQ are his most likely holdings.

Also if you are planning to fold to a shove are you not just turning your hand into a bluff, is it not better to just call if thats your plan.

No, and this is very bad thinking. This would be the case if villain never called, only folded or shoved. There's clearly value to a raise, even if we're forced into making an ugly fold some of the time.

The real time to puke is when you make it 150 and get minraised.

ocallagh

valor wrote:

$150/fold

you could have left out the $ sign!

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote:

No. If we shove we should only ever get called when we are beat. So, despite the fact that we sometimes get put in a tough spot, we need to make a raise of some description that isn't a minraise or an all - in bet. This is because it will help us to get paid by hands we beat.

Additionally, he may shove over our raise with hands we beat or in a mistaken attempt to bluff because he is bad. By raising we give him some extra scope to make an extraordinary mistake - if we shove he has to be spectacularly bad before we get paid.

wtf are you doing lloyd, explaining thing properly will only ruin the forum! good post tho.

mdwexford

I said the same as LLoyd right before him yet he gets all the credit, no justice round here

mdwexford

Zab wrote:

At first I thought we had the best hand in our range, which might have made it interesting if a thinking player shoved over our river raise. Of course, villain really doesn't look like a thinking player, and I suppose we might over limp A6s the odd time. TBH, SB has to be pretty damn 3-bet happy for me not to pot this preflop.


If villain shoves there's no way he has these hands often enough for us to call. That goes for most villains, but especially this type of guy. If he shoves I'd say TT or KQ are his most likely holdings.


No, and this is very bad thinking. This would be the case if villain never called, only folded or shoved. There's clearly value to a raise, even if we're forced into making an ugly fold some of the time.

The real time to puke is when you make it 150 and get minraised.

Its not bad thinking at all.

By raising and planning to fold to a shove its possible we can get bluffed off the best hand which would be a disaster. If i wasnt planning to call a shove id just flat call his river bet. He is pretty much never calling our river raise in this spot with a hand we beat so i dont think its raising for value at all.

pok3rplaya

valor wrote:

$150/fold

yaya

RoundTower

I said just call, but it sounds like this is leaving sokme money on the table.

valor

Mdwexford, you have it totally wrong : he is almost never shoving a worse hand for value or bluffing on the river, while he will very rarely lay down AJ or A10 to our raise

mdwexford

Im not saying hes going to do it often Valor, but it is possible he could shove A-J or A-10 on the river and then you fold the best hand, admittedly he'd have to be pretty bad.

Is just calling this river really that bad??

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

I think given this type of player, they are usually too passive to go nutso with even two pair hands after they've been raised on the river. Calling is pretty bad in that respect as he will never fold two pair to a raise, and he may even call with just an ace though I doubted it at the time tbh. What is the most likely occurance if I raise is he calls with two pair and shoves houses and then calls/shoves with a straight. Since he's more likely to have two pair hands, raising is far more profitable than just calling. And since he's extremely unlikely to shove with a worse hand then mine, raising and folding is rather straightforward here imo.

Results: He had KQ lol for the nut straight and just called my river raise

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

mdwexford

cardshark202 wrote:

I think given this type of player, they are usually too passive to go nutso with even two pair hands after they've been raised on the river. Calling is pretty bad in that respect as he will never fold two pair to a raise, and he may even call with just an ace though I doubted it at the time tbh. What is the most likely occurance if I raise is he calls with two pair and shoves houses and then calls/shoves with a straight. Since he's more likely to have two pair hands, raising is far more profitable than just calling. And since he's extremely unlikely to shove with a worse hand then mine, raising and folding is rather straightforward here imo.

Results: He had KQ lol for the nut straight and just called my river raise

Yeah that makes sense alright Reggie.

In spots like this before i wouldnt have raised unless i planned to call a shove but i see now why thats bad.

Damn you and your condescending one sentence replies anyway

Zab

(had this one sitting in the edit window for a while and I see that there are some more replies and results etc now)

mdwexford wrote:

Its not bad thinking at all.

By raising and planning to fold to a shove its possible we can get bluffed off the best hand which would be a disaster. If i wasnt planning to call a shove id just flat call his river bet. He is pretty much never calling our river raise in this spot with a hand we beat so i dont think its raising for value at all.

Your thinking is off on this one.

You seem to think that villain is going to bluff shove here a lot, but in reality only a small % of players at this level would even consider bluff shoving here (note: 3b bluff shoving, which is even less common).

You're also saying that he'll probably shove AT or AJ, but in reality when this villain has his 2 pair raised on the river he's going to think he's behind and isn't going to be trying to get more money in.

So that just leaves the concept of there being value to a raise if you're planning on folding to a reraise. This depends on there being a large enough range of hands that call a raise and lose. I think both ace two pair hands and if he's a caller then any ace might convince itself that it can call (particularly if he thinks he's being bullied off a "chop"). If his range for betting the river was tighter than this then things would change.