Triple Glazing - how effective?

Mocrie14

Am considering getting triple glazing at back of my house primarily to reduce sound distrurbance (Neighbours BBQs and partys). I live in a 10yr old detached house. Can anyone advise as to how effective good quality triple glazing would actually be in terms of noise reduction?


Thanks!

galwayrush

Definately will help noise reduction.
Expensive though,

Mellor

Decent triple glazing would offer almost twice the reduction in sound from a standard double glazed window.

A pub near where I used to live, had a secondary pane of glass approx 100mm inside the window frame and this made a signicant effect on the noise from inside.

A third pane set back from the existing double glazed unit would be more effective that a triple glazed unit. Have a look at the windows in a modern airport hotel.

Mellor

Of course it would be better, it is essentially a triple glazed unit with a 100mm air gap. Its the air gap that provides the sound insulation. This wouldn't look the best and may not have space for it, but it the best option.

ircoha

OP: consider the different ways sound can get into your house: wall vents, open windows, perhaps the roof space, before you go the triple G route.

As pointed out by Mellor below Triple G has other benefits, one being the ability to have small, electrically controlled venetian blinds in them: no dust collectors and nothing for children/grandchildren to pull at.

Mellor

ircoha wrote:

OP: consider the different ways sound can get into your house: wall vents, open windows, perhaps the roof space, before you go the triple G route

Defo try all routes, but remember that sound isnt the only benefit of triple glazing

Mocrie14

Thanks for all your replies. Am thinking of just getting the two bedroom windows at back upstairs done as these are the rooms affected. Anyone got a rough idea of the sort of money involved?

Monty G

Standard triple glazing is going to be no more effective then single-glazing so don't mind that nonsense about having twice the sound reduction. There will be no perceptible difference between a window comprising 1 pane of 4mm glass an insulated unit of comprised of 2 4mm panes and a 'standard' triple glazed unit comprising 3 4mm units. Replacing an old window with a new one will give you an improvement if only because the seals in the new window should be better and significant levels of noise transmission through a window is due to either crap seals or trickle vents. In other words a new single-glazed window will be no worse (and probably better) from a sound perspective then your old double-glazed window.
The two best ways to acheive sound reduction are;
1. Secondary-glazing aiming for a 100mm cavity between existing windows and secondary glazing. Line the cavity with acoustic ceiling tiles as this will also help.
2. If your existing windows warrant replacing then ask to see manufacturers independent certification for air-leakage rates and ensure that any trickle vents have a firm seal in the closed position. Secondly, after getting an initial quote, ask for the insulated glazing unit to made of two differing thicknesses of glass preferaby, 4mm & 6mm. This in itself willl reduce sound transmission by about 5db and in my opinion gives the best value for money (trade price on the glass for this should be no more then €10sq/m above the initial quote). It will also let you know if the rep knows anything about windows.


Is mise le meas,
Monty

Mellor

Monty G wrote:

Standard triple glazing is going to be no more effective then single-glazing so don't mind that nonsense about having twice the sound reduction. There will be no perceptible difference between a window comprising 1 pane of 4mm glass an insulated unit of comprised of 2 4mm panes and a 'standard' triple glazed unit comprising 3 4mm units. Replacing an old window with a new one will give you an improvement if only because the seals in the new window should be better and significant levels of noise transmission through a window is due to either crap seals or trickle vents. In other words a new single-glazed window will be no worse (and probably better) from a sound perspective then your old double-glazed window.
The two best ways to acheive sound reduction are;
1. Secondary-glazing aiming for a 100mm cavity between existing windows and secondary glazing. Line the cavity with acoustic ceiling tiles as this will also help.
2. If your existing windows warrant replacing then ask to see manufacturers independent certification for air-leakage rates and ensure that any trickle vents have a firm seal in the closed position. Secondly, after getting an initial quote, ask for the insulated glazing unit to made of two differing thicknesses of glass preferaby, 4mm & 6mm. This in itself willl reduce sound transmission by about 5db and in my opinion gives the best value for money (trade price on the glass for this should be no more then €10sq/m above the initial quote). It will also let you know if the rep knows anything about windows.


Is mise le meas,
Monty

A chara na bí ag magadh faoi.
The extra panes in a double of triple glazed unit improve sound transfer. And most of the sound reduction comes from the structural break due to the air (or otherwise) gap. Obviously the triple unit does better in this regard.
You contra dict your self saying that double does no better than single, then at the end suggest at the end a double will reduce sound by 5dB.
Leakage at seals is a source of sound penetration. Even assuming that rates of leakage are the same its completely incorrect to assume that sound penetration is the same as leakage isn't the only route of sound transfer.

And most importantly, suggesting a single pane window unit in a domestic situation is plain funny. You'll get better light gains, but heat will fly out. Even the average Joe on the street knows this.


edit:as gaeilge

muffler

Mellor wrote:

Don't be ridiculous. The extra panes in a double of triple glazed unit improve sound transfer. And most of the sound reduction comes from the structural break due to the air (or otherwise) gap. Obviously the triple unit does better in this regard.
You contra dict your self saying that double does no better than single, then at the end suggest at the end a double will reduce sound by 5dB.
Leakage at seals is a source of sound penetration. Even assuming that rates of leakage are the same its completely incorrect to assume that sound penetration is the same as leakage isn't the only route of sound transfer.

And most importantly, suggesting a single pane window unit in a domestic situation is plain funny. You'll get better light gains, but heat will fly out. Even the average Joe on the street knows this.

Mellor, you didnt put "A Chara" at the start of your reply to the sound and ventilation expert

Mellor

in my hurry I forgot mo focal gaeilge. edited now. thanks for the heads up

ircoha

Monty G wrote:

Standard triple glazing is going to be no more effective then single-glazing so don't mind that nonsense about having twice the sound reduction. There will be no perceptible difference between a window comprising 1 pane of 4mm glass an insulated unit of comprised of 2 4mm panes and a 'standard' triple glazed unit comprising 3 4mm units. Replacing an old window with a new one will give you an improvement if only because the seals in the new window should be better and significant levels of noise transmission through a window is due to either crap seals or trickle vents. In other words a new single-glazed window will be no worse (and probably better) from a sound perspective then your old double-glazed window.
The two best ways to acheive sound reduction are;
1. Secondary-glazing aiming for a 100mm cavity between existing windows and secondary glazing. Line the cavity with acoustic ceiling tiles as this will also help.
2. If your existing windows warrant replacing then ask to see manufacturers independent certification for air-leakage rates and ensure that any trickle vents have a firm seal in the closed position. Secondly, after getting an initial quote, ask for the insulated glazing unit to made of two differing thicknesses of glass preferaby, 4mm & 6mm. This in itself willl reduce sound transmission by about 5db and in my opinion gives the best value for money (trade price on the glass for this should be no more then €10sq/m above the initial quote). It will also let you know if the rep knows anything about windows.


Is mise le meas,
Monty

Amaidi Chainte!!
Bualadh bos!!

ps
ar fheabhas Mo Chara Dolanbaker:cool:
pss
Moved to Languages: Muffler:cool:

muffler

Where can I get an Irish > English dictionary

Try here

PS: I used it!

edit: @ Ircoha. mise Gaeilge foghlaim anois, (I think that's right, 2nd try) :cool:

Monty G

Mellor wrote:

A chara na bí ag magadh faoi.
The extra panes in a double of triple glazed unit improve sound transfer. And most of the sound reduction comes from the structural break due to the air (or otherwise) gap. Obviously the triple unit does better in this regard.
You contra dict your self saying that double does no better than single, then at the end suggest at the end a double will reduce sound by 5dB.
Leakage at seals is a source of sound penetration. Even assuming that rates of leakage are the same its completely incorrect to assume that sound penetration is the same as leakage isn't the only route of sound transfer.

And most importantly, suggesting a single pane window unit in a domestic situation is plain funny. You'll get better light gains, but heat will fly out. Even the average Joe on the street knows this.


edit:as gaeilge

The statement “The extra panes in a double of triple glazed unit improve sound transfer” is gibberish. You appear to be compounding the error in your original post. Your initial assertion was that “decent triple-glazing would offer almost twice the reduction in sound from a standard double-glazed window”. In my opinion this is nonsense but I would be delighted to see evidence to the contrary.
Data from Pilkington & others will show that using a common weighted acoustic index a single pane of 4mm glass has an Rw of 30dB. A double-glazed unit comprising 4mm, 16mm cavity, 4mm glass has an Rw of 31dB. Bearing in mind that the human ear cannot detect a change of 1-2dB, to quote myself, “there will be no perceptible difference”. Adding another 12mm cavity and a pane of 4mm float will give another reduction of circa 1dB. So for a typical triple-glazed unit (4+12+4+12+4) you will have an approximate aggregate 2dB reduction. To half the perceived sound transmission you will require a 10dB reduction. There are fundamental differences between triple glazing and secondary glazing.
If you want to pontificate on this subject and not come across as incoherent you should acquire a minimal knowledge of sympathetic vibration aka the coincidence dip.

I have not contradicted myself. You are having difficulties comprehending basic glazing fundamentals. I said there is no noticeable difference between standard double glazing and a single pane. I then went on to recommend a cost effective way to achieve significant sound reduction in a double glazed unit. Your remarks on sound penetration and leakage are nonsensical.

Yet more comprehension difficulties on your part about my "suggestions". I wrote “In other words a new single-glazed window will be no worse (and probably better) from a sound perspective then your old double-glazed window” (Italics added for those that didn’t get it on the first take).

Is mise le meas,
Monty

Mellor

Monty G wrote:

If you want to pontificate on this subject and not come across as incoherent you should acquire a minimal knowledge of sympathetic vibration aka the coincidence dip.

I believe its called sympathetic resonance, but vibration is probably a suitable name. Its true that resonance can occur, but it will not always occur.
I believe sound resonants in the first pane, causing the second pane to resonate at the same frequency, making the whole unit behave like single unit.

A decent spec triple glazed unit can avoid this. A alternate thickness of middle pane is the key. Resonance can't occur. So sound transfer is reduced.
Add this to the fact that the quaility triple glazed is pretty high in terms of seals.
The best sound insulation i've seen is 45dB reduction. So this is about a third of the sound penetration from a single unit. This was from a compound tripple glazed unit (2+1). 50mm air gap, as a single unit.

Enid Gerhardy

Mellor wrote:

I believe its called sympathetic resonance, but vibration is probably a suitable name. Its true that resonance can occur, but it will not always occur.
I believe sound resonants in the first pane, causing the second pane to resonate at the same frequency, making the whole unit behave like single unit.

A decent spec triple glazed unit can avoid this. A alternate thickness of middle pane is the key. Resonance can't occur. So sound transfer is reduced.
Add this to the fact that the quaility triple glazed is pretty high in terms of seals.
The best sound insulation i've seen is 45dB reduction. So this is about a third of the sound penetration from a single unit. This was from a compound tripple glazed unit (2+1). 50mm air gap, as a single unit.

Montgomery has asked that me to make the following breif points in relation to this post
1. The IGU seals are totally irrelevant to this issue in question
2. 2+1 is not considered to be triple glazing in the general meaning of the term. It is a 2+1 assembly
3. Copying from google is fine if what you copy is pertinent.


Enid Gerhardy

ircoha

Enid Gerhardy wrote:

Montgomery has asked that me to make the following breif points in relation to this post
1. The IGU seals are totally irrelevant to this issue in question
2. 2+1 is not considered to be triple glazing in the general meaning of the term. It is a 2+1 assembly
3. Copying from google is fine if what you copy is pertinent.


Enid Gerhardy

Enid a chara,

Is geal leis an bhfiach dubh a ghearrcach féin.
go mbeannaí Dia thú!

Mellor

Enid Gerhardy wrote:

Montgomery has asked that me to make the following breif points in relation to this post
1. The IGU seals are totally irrelevant to this issue in question
2. 2+1 is not considered to be triple glazing in the general meaning of the term. It is a 2+1 assembly
3. Copying from google is fine if what you copy is pertinent.


Enid Gerhardy

I am well aware that it is different. That is why I highlighted the fact that it was 2+1. Its a single unit that can achieve a 45dB reduction. Im not here to argue with Monty, the point was aimed at the OP.
Also, could he point out where I copied from google i'd be interested. As it was actually a few leaflets from various companies I looked through. As for being pertinent, point that out too please. The whole post is related to glazing and sound transfer.
And there was no comment of a triple glazed unit with a different middle pane, to prevent resonance. I'd be interested in your comments.

muffler

Mellor wrote:

I'd be interested in your comments.

Dont hold your breath waiting for a comment from either of them as they are both on holidays (extended too)

muffler

muffler wrote:

Dont hold your breath waiting for a comment from either of them as they are both on holidays (extended too)

Is binn béal ina thost.

FWIW I'm no expert on these things, I just know from experience that the large air gap works.

Slán agat

Mocrie14

Thanks for all your replies folks but a lot of it went over my head! I'm going to get quotes on the best triple glazing available for my needs. As mentioned before my main objective is sound reduction so the seals on the windows will be very important. What are the main things I need to look out for with the windows in order to maximise the sound reduction as much as possible?


Thanks!

sinnerboy

Ever notice that even when the car door window is open , even a fraction, that the traffic noise remains still quite loud . Close that gap shut tight and ..... quite . Effective seals , in practice , will contribute more than the actual glazing spec . You should be ok with double glazing

In Ireland in the 70's/80's a common mis conception arose that double glazing per se gave rise to better sound insulation but people were actually experiecing the affects of better frame seals .

So look at window samples with a particular view at the seals and at the ease of opening and closing of the windows ( to make sure it is easy to shut them tightly ) . Check how firmly the seals are actually affixed to the frame -- can you you pull them away with your fingers ? ( this does happen with some windows folks ) .

And when the windows are being fitted check that they are the tightest fit possible and that any gaps to the walls head and cill are well sealed .

Try to get the best installer you can ( get references )

goat2

i was considering triple glazing my double glazed windows in my sitting room and kitchen diner, reading through all the posts on boards that are discussing this, i think that i will now opt for good insulating blinds instead, i dont see a strong enough case that they conserve more heat which is what i am after,
i would like your views on this

BryanF

can you point to some of the posts your referring to, specifically ones that helped you form this assumption

goat2 wrote: »

reading through all the posts on boards that are discussing this....i dont see a strong enough case that they conserve more heat which is what i am after

my view is there is a limit to retro-fitting glazing U-value (circa 1.2wm2k overall), as in, what is appropriately installed without an insulation wrap of the building at the same time (partly to reduce thermal bridges), also achieving good air-tightness levels and the introduction of a ventilation system .

but lets be clear - it's the quality of the windows that should be discussed here - at circa 1.2wm2k an overall U-value can be achieved in double glazing but will generally be more expensive than the same u-value of a triple glazed unit mainly due to the frame, as it's the frame that is hardest to insulate to the highest levels and as such demands a premium. If you are looking for the 1.2 overall - with triple 'glass' at say 0.6wm2k, that could allow you to have a crap rated frame, and may be competitive or even cheaper than its double glazed unit comparison.

goat2

BryanF wrote: »

can you point to some of the posts your referring to, specifically ones that helped you form this assumption
my view is there is a limit to retro-fitting glazing U-value (circa 1.2wm2k overall), as in, what is appropriately installed without an insulation wrap of the building at the same time (partly to reduce thermal bridges), also achieving good air-tightness levels and the introduction of a ventilation system .

but lets be clear - it's the quality of the windows that should be discussed here - at circa 1.2wm2k an overall U-value can be achieved in double glazing but will generally be more expensive than the same u-value of a triple glazed unit mainly due to the frame, as it's the frame that is hardest to insulate to the highest levels and as such demands a premium. If you are looking for the 1.2 overall - with triple 'glass' at say 0.6wm2k, that could allow you to have a crap rated frame, and may be competitive or even cheaper than its double glazed unit comparison.

i agree with you there, yes, it all depends on how they are installed, and i think this may be my problem, as i do feel that they did not look at airtightness, there are draughts coming in between window board and window, how do i rectify this

BryanF

take of windows boards and assess detail - add air-tightness membrane or silcone seal depending on conditions. as regards the actual windows, unless you can get satisfaction from the windows companies or some improvement by changing the window seals all you can do is advise others what the pitfall are a have better luck next time..

goat2

BryanF wrote: »

take of windows boards and assess detail - add air-tightness membrane or silcone seal depending on conditions. as regards the actual windows, unless you can get satisfaction from the windows companies or some improvement by changing the window seals all you can do is advise others what the pitfall are a have better luck next time..

thanks for the advice, i was thinking of going down that road, i guess i have no choice but to remove window boards, and get it right

psychward

Deleted User wrote: »

A pub near where I used to live, had a secondary pane of glass approx 100mm inside the window frame and this made a signicant effect on the noise from inside.

A third pane set back from the existing double glazed unit would be more effective that a triple glazed unit. Have a look at the windows in a modern airport hotel.

Would such a set up (an additional pane behind a double glazed unit) potentially cause or trap heavy condensation ?

Poor Uncle Tom

psychward wrote: »

Would such a set up (an additional pane behind a double glazed unit) potentially cause or trap heavy condensation ?

Just to be aware that the post you have quoted is nearly 5 years old. Some of the posters on this thread are no longer posting, however that poster is.