well he can't have the nuts....2/4 spot with AA

El Stuntman · 28-08-2007 8:03am #1

2/4 6-max

Villain is playing 480 and I cover. He's 24/18 or thereabouts, haven't got involved too much with him and haven't noticed too much.

Villain is in the SB

I get AcAd on the button, folded to me and I make it 14. SB calls, BB calls.

Flop is 8c, 4c, 3c.

Check, check. I make it 38 and SB checkraises to 160

BB folds

I???

eoghan104 · 28-08-2007 9:07am

I cant see a hand that you are behind bar a set, With those stats I dont think he calls OOP with KQc. Its a tough spot because he either has you beat here or has air. I suppose he may have an overpair but surley he would have raised QQ+ OOP preflop. For this reason I just call and see if he fires again on the turn and get it in. If you raise this flop hes folding every hand you beat. I could never fold here by the way but Im sure some will say you should.

smilingatyou · 28-08-2007 9:39am

99+ AJ+ is wat im thinking here, his checkraise seems more that he does not believe this flop could help you, than strength?
not sure but its probably different at the higher lvls
i never believe a checkraise though

Mr.Plough · 28-08-2007 9:45am

this spot sucks

i probably call the flop and shove over his turn bet/call a shove, but im not sure.

would like to see some oppinions on this hand as im pretty sure misplaying overpairs on monotone flops is a leak in my game

careca · 28-08-2007 10:02am

If you call and another club hits, you won't get another cent from him.

I might get slated for this, but if I am playing this hand I would shove here. I'm not too sure he will fold all hands that you beat, unless he has complete air and if you are behind you have lots of outs.

AmarilloFats · 28-08-2007 10:05am

Whats his agg factor?
Whats your image like - stealing %?

with this flop, and you with the Ac, I don't think villain is semibluffing ..I think he has a hand that he thinks is the best hand.

A set usually, flush...would he 3bet with JJ/QQ/KK??

I call here and fold to a large turn bet unimproved. <read> "I go all in here- but the right play is : ...."

If villain has made moves on flop before I like Eoghans line of calling thisraise and raising his turn bet AI.

eoghan104 · 28-08-2007 10:07am

careca wrote:

If you call and another club hits, you won't get another cent from him.

I might get slated for this, but if I am playing this hand I would shove here. I'm not too sure he will fold all hands that you beat, unless he has complete air and if you are behind you have lots of outs.

If we shove now what hand can he have that calls? only sets IMO.

Van Dice · 28-08-2007 10:10am

What do people do if hero's hand is AcKd?

eoghan104 · 28-08-2007 10:13am

Van Dice wrote:

What do people do if hero's hand is AcKd?

Good question but we should probably discuss the actual hand more first.

BuChan · 28-08-2007 10:17am

careca wrote:

If you call and another club hits, you won't get another cent from him.

I might get slated for this, but if I am playing this hand I would shove here. I'm not too sure he will fold all hands that you beat, unless he has complete air and if you are behind you have lots of outs.

you don't have a lot of outs against a flopped flush. i think it's wrong to get your tank in here since he's probably got at least a set. call and fold to a healthy sized turn bet maybe?

Van Dice · 28-08-2007 10:19am

eoghan104 wrote:

Good question but we should probably discuss the actual hand more first.

I am trying to! Was an indirect question about our equity versus villain's range, and how often he has underpairs here

ianmc38 · 28-08-2007 10:21am

AcKx is an easy fold. This is a tougher one. I usually look for the fold button then ship it.

BuChan · 28-08-2007 10:22am

Van Dice wrote:

What do people do if hero's hand is AcKd?

probably play with the same level of caution since the AA is only two extra outs if the villain has a set. i suppose he could have 99-qq with the club and be trying to end the hand quickly before some ugly card for him comes on the turn. maybe i'm giving the villain too much credit in my first answer.

BuChan · 28-08-2007 10:23am

ianmc38 wrote:

AcKx is an easy fold. This is a tougher one. I usually look for the fold button then ship it.

lol, that's more than likely what we'd all do i guess!

eoghan104 · 28-08-2007 10:31am

BuChan wrote:

you don't have a lot of outs against a flopped flush. i think it's wrong to get your tank in here since he's probably got at least a set. call and fold to a healthy sized turn bet maybe?

what flopped flush do you think he plays like this though? The most important thing here is giving him a range and I dont think he ever has a flush here. Very rarely KQc but does he call a raise from the SB with that holding playing 24/18?

AmarilloFats · 28-08-2007 10:32am

without a specific read it's not reasonable to put a 24/18 on a hand you beat.

TxTc+ .... orKcX ... thoughts

careca · 28-08-2007 10:33am

eoghan104 wrote:

If we shove now what hand can he have that calls? only sets IMO.

I take your point about folding worse hands than ours but I'm not sure on this board. There are too many players who would get it in here with an overpair with a club (JcJx, etc). I know they might have three bet preflop with this holding but not all the time, especially oop.

Ian summed it up for me anyway, type of hand you curse yourself for after the event. Hard one to give up though. i still prefer folding/raising than calling. If you call and a club comes thats it and if it doesn't he has position to put in a large bet which means you have to fold (and could therefore be folding the best hand)

Primewise · 28-08-2007 10:37am

he could also have top 2 pair (78), in which case you have 13 outs (pairing the bottom card, 2 aces and 9 flush cards) which makes it 50/50 if you get it in here.

and he could also have a combo draw like 910 with the 10 clubs....maybe? if he thinks you have air then its not a bad move

you're not entirely screwed anyway, having the NF draw, so I'd probably stick it in

BuChan · 28-08-2007 10:39am

eoghan104 wrote:

what flopped flush do you think he plays like this though? The most important thing here is giving him a range and I dont think he ever has a flush here. Very rarely KQc but does he call a raise from the SB with that holding playing 24/18?

i don't understand those stats unfortunately so can't give an opinion on that. personally i like to make a healthy sized raise like his with a flopped flush be it K high or 5 high. stuntman says he hasn't been involved all that much with the guy so it's hard to know if that's his style or not.

fuzzbox · 28-08-2007 10:40am

Because we hold the Ac, then he is WAY more likely to hold a made hand.

I think you should fold, but everybody always pushes here. Villain simply isnt going to show up with KcKx or QcQx or TcTx ....etc very often, if ever.

fuzzbox · 28-08-2007 10:40am

Primewise wrote:

and he could also have a combo draw like 910 with the 10 clubs....maybe? if he thinks you have air then its not a bad move

Thats more like wishful thinking

eoghan104 · 28-08-2007 10:40am

Primewise wrote:

he could also have top 2 pair (78), in which case you have 13 outs (pairing the bottom card, 2 aces and 9 flush cards) which makes it 50/50 if you get it in here.

and he could also have a combo draw like 910 with the 10 clubs....maybe? if he thinks you have air then its not a bad move

I dont think he ever has 9 10 or 78 here to be honest. If hes good his calling range preflop from SB must be very tight.

Van Dice · 28-08-2007 10:44am

BuChan wrote:

i don't understand those stats unfortunately so can't give an opinion on that. personally i like to make a healthy sized raise like his with a flopped flush be it K high or 5 high. stuntman says he hasn't been involved all that much with the guy so it's hard to know if that's his style or not.

24/18 just means that he plays 24% of hands (not including his BB in limped pots), and raises/3-bets 18% of them preflop

fuzzbox · 28-08-2007 10:45am

eoghan104 wrote:

I dont think he ever has 9 10 or 78 here to be honest. If hes good his calling range preflop from SB must be very tight.

Yeah, its kinda like 22-TT normally

.

Van Dice · 28-08-2007 10:45am

fuzzbox wrote:

Because we hold the Ac, then he is WAY more likely to hold a made hand.

I think you should fold, but everybody always pushes here. Villain simply isnt going to show up with KcKx or QcQx or TcTx ....etc very often, if ever.

Agree completely

eoghan104 · 28-08-2007 10:45am

fuzzbox wrote:

Because we hold the Ac, then he is WAY more likely to hold a made hand.

I think you should fold, but everybody always pushes here. Villain simply isnt going to show up with KcKx or QcQx or TcTx ....etc very often, if ever.

I agree that he doesnt have an overpair very much and a set is most likely. However for the times he has air raising here is terrible as he may fire again on a blank turn. Its definatly a fold or call I dont see any point in raising.

AmarilloFats · 28-08-2007 10:46am

fuzzbox wrote:

Because we hold the Ac, then he is WAY more likely to hold a made hand.

I think you should fold, but everybody always pushes here. Villain simply isnt going to show up with KcKx or QcQx or TcTx ....etc very often, if ever.

.

Except I never fold hear... I at least peel one off ffs - live a little

El Stuntman · 28-08-2007 10:46am

AmarilloFats wrote:

Whats his agg factor?

2 or so, can't be sure as have no access to PT right now

AmarilloFats wrote:

Whats your image like - stealing %?.

stealing % probably early 20s.

I am probably viewed as TAG (maybe verging on nittish

)

El Stuntman · 28-08-2007 11:04am

ianmc38 wrote:

I usually look for the fold button then ship it.

lol, that's what I did :rolleyes:

he called - submissions please on his holding....winner gets €2.50 of my action on ollyk1 in the HU final (at 10/1) - first correct answer wins. You have until 2pm....one answer each only allowed....

just noticed small error on the flop texture from OP, it was actually 8c 4c 3c