Passive Houses

Glowing

So, why aren't they taking off here? I think there is one passive house in the entire country, somewhere in Co. Wicklow.

I believe they are taking off in Germany and in Scandinavia (despite their harsh winters, the Passive house can maintain an indoor temperature of 17C without a heating system), and can be built for only a small amount more than a regular 'leaky' house. It seems like a no-brainer to me, and I don't understand why the Irish wouldn't choose a house with fewer bills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house
http://www.scanhome.ie/passive.php
http://www.constructireland.ie/articles/0209passivehouse.php

What are your thoughts? I'd love to build myself one of these ......

gonk

In case you can make it, Tomás O'Leary of MosArt architects in Wicklow will be giving a lecture on passive houses next week in Westport:

http://westportartsfestival.ticketsolve.com/performances/2007/9/8

MosArt claim to have built the first passive house in Ireland:

http://www.mosart.ie/

O'Leary will be talking about designing, building and living in the house, which was completed two years ago.

dame

Scandinavian Homes are now designing and building standard factory-made passive houses in Ireland. In fact, they have the worlds first standardised and factory-made passive house (built in Galway) pictured on their website at:
http://www.scanhome.ie/passive.php

I think the reason there aren't more passive houses in Ireland yet is the obsession Irish people have with building the largest, most imposing-looking house they possibly can. That means big, standard, preferrably with a bit of stone somewhere and as many windows as possible. People don't generally put much thought into the design of their house beyond the size, number of rooms and the external appearance. That's why there are so many houses all looking so similar and a lot of them picked out of books of plans. The direction the site faces in seems not to affect people's planning at all.

Glowing

Regarding windows, I think it's possible to have many windows just as long as none of them face north! I think architecturaly, some of the designs are amazing, and probably provide more well thought out living space than some recently built one-beds.

I wonder how easy it is to get planning for a house like this? They might stand out a bit in a more traditional neighbourhood.

dame

I was referring to the big houses being built in the last few years with as many windows as possible. Some people think that putting two tall narrowish windows in each room on the front elevation will make their house look bigger.

You don't have to totally eliminate windows on the north face, you still need daylight in your rooms, but the size of any windows on the north-face should be minimised while those on the south should be maximised. Obviously living areas should be on the southern side of the house.

It would be possible to clad the houses and plaster and paint them to look like any other new bungalow.

Another reason why there aren't more of them is because some older engineers are reluctant to move away from what they've been doing for donkeys years. There aren't that many older engineers doing a masters in renewable energy for example. As more engineers (and architects) emerge from college having been given a grounding and appreciation of passive housing, we should see more of them encouraging their clients to think about incorporating the idea into what they have already envisioned, or even to go the whole hog and build a fully-passive house.

maniac101

OP, I think that another reason that passive houses haven't yet taken off is because of the historical shortage of housing in the country. In a sellers market, poeple had to take whatever houses the developers offered them. Getting a passive house wasn't an option for most of us. I'd be hopeful that with greater equilibrium in the market, house purchasers will be able to demand higher energy standards from developers.

I'd like to see more builders building larger passive house developments. Passive houses shouldn't be the preserve of the one-off builders. When sustainable developments with passive house technology are available, then I would be very happy to buy one.

shakeydude

The construct Ireland publication recently had a article on Passive Housing and I heard their editor on the radio last week saying that with the slow down in the housing developers will try and off set this by offering housing with higher specs such as passive. For the last few years there has been no incentive to offer anything than the tried and tested

Glowing

I think another problem is the fact that a passive house has to be built properly or not at all. Possibly there is a shortage of affordable tripple glazing, the necessary insulation, other raw materials .... there can't really be any shortcuts in quality or design, it won't work otherwise!

I also imagine our parents generation have problems trusting that a house can function without a central heating system- as you said Dame, it's probably our generation who have the motivation and training to get involved in such a project.

It's so frustrating though - it'd really reduce our reliability in fossil fuels .....

dame

Maybe in the next few years when people start getting their Building Energy Ratings they'll start to think about it more. Here's hoping!

sas

Glowing wrote:

So, why aren't they taking off here? I think there is one passive house in the entire country, somewhere in Co. Wicklow.
QUOTE]

I'm currently planning a house build. Planning is granted with a design that keeps the basic concepts in mind i.e. minimised glazing to north, maxed glazing to south, shading for summer overheating protection. Its still big (> 3500 sq ft.) and its still got partial stone on it! The mosart passive house is bigger than that so its very much possible to build big and passive.

I've looked at the passive house concept in detail and the bottom line right now is that its restrictively expensive to build one here. Scanhomes do build them as mentioned but take a look at their price per sq ft?

The irish have a great attachement to the open fire (me included) and thats out, full stop. You couldn't meet the airtightness spec. and the rest of the house would be too tight anyway to allow a fire to draw.

There aren't too many build systems commonly available here either that meet the spec they mandate, 0.15 u-value max for wall, roof and floor. There are question marks over the long term durabilty of the systems that are available.

The energy rating certs are based on the spec. (not workmanship) for the house but a certified passive house must undergo some testing e.g. blower test for airtightness. How many of the A-Rated dwellings hitting the market here really are the real deal.

My spec will be close to passive (windows and doors are going to set me back in the region of 50K but what can you do) so I do believe in the concept. I'm replacing the open fire with a room sealed stove that has its own independant combustion air supply.

Oldtree

What kind of stove? I looked into it and the self contained air supply couldn't be used with anything but gas.

I plan a backboiler stove with a pipe from the outside to the intake on the stove, with a plug to manually regulate the amount of air needed (most needed to get the fire going)

I think passive houses are a step too far in Ireland as the majority of the time it's not that cold and does not warrent the expense. The need for constant mechanical ventilation worries me too.

sas

Oldtree wrote:

What kind of stove? I looked into it and the self contained air supply couldn't be used with anything but gas.

The need for constant mechanical ventilation worries me too.

Its not a balanced flue like the gas ones. This is a 4 inch pipe that connects to the bottom of the stove to supply the combustion air. http://www.murphyheating.com/ have them, I came across this company at the Galway selfbuild show. Its not something specifically mentioned, its listed as an option in the model by model section in the brocures for stove makers such as SCAN. They are being produced in response to the significant increase in the airtightness of buildings.

The next round of building regs. here is expected to mandate certain airtightness requirements. These in turn will trigger a bigger requirement for mhrv systems. What specifically worries you?

ircoha

Oldtree wrote:

What kind of stove? I looked into it and the self contained air supply couldn't be used with anything but gas.

I plan a backboiler stove with a pipe from the outside to the intake on the stove, with a plug to manually regulate the amount of air needed (most needed to get the fire going)

I think passive houses are a step too far in Ireland as the majority of the time it's not that cold and does not warrent the expense. The need for constant mechanical ventilation worries me too.

You need to manage the airflow with something more than a plug or you will be buying new grates on a frequent basis: think blacksmiths forge.
I had this set up in a house in 1980 and I wrecked it due to the excessive heat:(

CJhaughey

MHRV is fantastic, it consumes very little energy and the benefits far outweigh the cost of installation and running (IMHO).
Firstly it maintains a constant flow of fresh air through the house, the air is filtered and will usually have a lower moisture level than the ambient external air because as it passes through the MHRV unit it condenses and runs off.
I have installed a solid fuel stove which will just burn wood this should hopefully make a big difference to our heat requirements in the winter.
I don't think that you necessarily need to have a passive house but minimising heat requirements is a no brainer when building from scratch.
regarding prices of passive houses, anyone know what the MOSART house cost to build? I have heard rumours only and the rumoured CBA would not make sense.

Jambo

CJ ,

I think the Mosart house cost in the region of 400k (Direct Labour , Self Managed Build ) but it is in the region of 4000sq ft . ( I ll check my Copy of Build Your own from 2 years ago where the house was a featured article and ill edit my post as soon as im home this evening )

sas

Jambo wrote:

CJ ,

I think the Mosart house cost in the region of 400k (Direct Labour , Self Managed Build ) but it is in the region of 4000sq ft . ( I ll check my Copy of Build Your own from 2 years ago where the house was a featured article and ill edit my post as soon as im home this evening )

That article lists the build cost at around 550K. I do get the feeling that the got favourable pricing on alot of the components due to the nature of the build i.e. very high visibility

Sorry for stealing your thunder there Jambo!

Jambo

No probs there sas , I totally forgot about this thread till this morning and I have only found the magazine now .

Im guessing but I reckon his build costs could have been slightly higher as the build time may have been longer with tradesmen dealing with new and unfamiliar techniques and materials as this was the 1st Block Build Passive House here .

All said tho @ €125 / sq ft its pretty close to what Builders are charging for one off houses !

An Ri rua

Glowing wrote:

So, why aren't they taking off here? I think there is one passive house in the entire country, somewhere in Co. Wicklow.

I believe they are taking off in Germany and in Scandinavia (despite their harsh winters, the Passive house can maintain an indoor temperature of 17C without a heating system), and can be built for only a small amount more than a regular 'leaky' house. It seems like a no-brainer to me, and I don't understand why the Irish wouldn't choose a house with fewer bills.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house
http://www.scanhome.ie/passive.php
http://www.constructireland.ie/articles/0209passivehouse.php

What are your thoughts? I'd love to build myself one of these ......

There's a company I've been talking to that are now successfully building passive houses in Ireland, ECOhouse. They supply and build passive houses from Austria's biggest offsite housebuilder ELK. They've recently built 2 in Cavan and are also building a fully functioning example, running off renewable energy, at the RDS Sustainable Building Show.

You can also register for more info here and submit plans for free, where they'll quote for them.

ircoha

CJhaughey wrote:

MHRV is fantastic, it consumes very little energy and the benefits far outweigh the cost of installation and running (IMHO).
Firstly it maintains a constant flow of fresh air through the house, the air is filtered and will usually have a lower moisture level than the ambient external air because as it passes through the MHRV unit it condenses and runs off.
I have installed a solid fuel stove which will just burn wood this should hopefully make a big difference to our heat requirements in the winter.
I don't think that you necessarily need to have a passive house but minimising heat requirements is a no brainer when building from scratch.
regarding prices of passive houses, anyone know what the MOSART house cost to build? I have heard rumours only and the rumoured CBA would not make sense.

CJ: is there any power backup in the event of a power outage? I u/std the fans are on 24/7. Thanks

at the self build gig http://www.scanhome.ie/ had a big stand

CJhaughey

Ircoha
Nope power goes out everything goes off.
I haven't got around to fitting a generator input in the box yet.
TBH it doesn't really matter that the HRV stops it just means that the house turns into a house without ventilation
I have turned it off a few times when people were backyard burning around me and the smoke was being sucked in.
The only thing I would like to have with a backup is the pump on the solar panel.

Chimpster

CJhaughey wrote:

Ircoha

The only thing I would like to have with a backup is the pump on the solar panel.

Did you consider using a PV panel for this? I am looking at it presently...

How does you solar deal with the scenario when the power goes on a really hot sunny day? Some suppliers reckon the antifreeze in the system raises the boiling point of the system so the system is uneffeted.

CJhaughey

Yes I have considered using a PV panel for this but I need to know whether to replace the pump with a 12v unit and use that with a transformer or whether to run an inverter and a bigger battery.
I have one experience with the pump stopping in sunny weather last year.
I had plugged the 110v transformer into a socket and it tripped the board shutting the solar pump down as well, the system reached 137 deg in about 2 minutes!, I ended up pulling a big piece of cardboard up and over the panels from the back of the roof, this allowed the panels to cool down so the pump could be restarted.
The pump locks out at 110 deg or so to prevent damage to it from high temp coolant.

silverharp

Have a look at About The House 8:30 tomorrow from memory RTE1, they are looking at passive houses in Sweden

CJhaughey

I think Duncan and Lars visit Lysekil where the Scanhome houses are built, should be an interesting episode.
I would like to see the factory where my house was made!

Jambo

silverharp wrote:

Have a look at About The House 8:30 tomorrow from memory RTE1, they are looking at passive houses in Sweden

Sadly no sign of the Scanhome Crew tonight I was looking forward to seem them , looks like Seamus of Viking House didn't have a memorable time for himself on that episode tho :eek: !

silverharp

Jambo wrote:

Sadly no sign of the Scanhome Crew tonight I was looking forward to seem them , looks like Seamus of Viking House didn't have a memorable time for himself on that episode tho :eek: !

blame the irish times, will probably come up later in the series

sas

Jambo wrote:

looks like Seamus of Viking House didn't have a memorable time for himself on that episode tho :eek: !

This is the 3rd reference to VH getting nailed on that episode I've seen but I missed it and RTE don't appear to repeat. What happened?

Jambo

He didn't turn up at atimes , the renovation went behind schedule , his polish foreman was on two weeks hols but took 4 as his wife had a baby , they were chasing his window order from poland for a while plus they were having prob waiting for seamus to show and it appeared that the house owner was having to project manage VH's men with difficulty (Cause of language barriers ) ,

In saying that the programe editors may have elevated the situation or they may have dumbed it down so as not to make it look too bad .

Sas where were the other refs you seen to this ?

sas

Jambo wrote:

Sas where were the other refs you seen to this ?

It was mentioned on a thread on www.constructireland.ie I may have seen it elsewhere too but can't remember. It was the same as the reference here though, i.e. that it was a difficult episode for him but no mention of why. Until you helped out of course!

Green_Man

Hi Folks,
I was recently at a show which had Timber framed homes that will achieve an A1 BER cert, which is basically a passive home. These homes uses less energy than <25 kWh/m2/yr.

It is not just a timber framed home you need, but the complete package. Possible a heat recovery system and maybe a Geothermal heat pump/solar/wind or renewable energy combination. There seem to be may ways this can be achieved. Anyway myself and a friend set up a site to cater for this very need of information on Greener Homes and the BER cert(Building Energy Rating) so if you need to find assessors or suppliers of Timber framed homes like DAS Griffner Haus or just alternative energy solutions we have plenty to choose from. Hope this helps.
www.BERdirectory.ie

Regards,
Michael

ircoha

For info: if unreadable can email it if u pm me

dame

What book did you get that in ircoha? Looks like a book I'd like to read.

Capt'n Midnight

Gemini house - a circular house that rotates so the windows and solar panels face the sun - though if you had enough space you could probably do it more easily with mirrors and a heliostat



Is it worth trying to passively heat a typical Irish house ?
plaster / rock wool / breeze block / white dashing / double glazing

what are the merits of ?
foam in the breeze block
extra insulation in the attic
what sort of flooring should be used

BendiBus

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

Gemini house - a circular house that rotates so the windows and solar panels face the sun

How much energy is consumed in rotating a house?

Capt'n Midnight

BendiBus wrote:

How much energy is consumed in rotating a house?

the speed is very low so not much, if the bearings were friction less you could keep rotation all night on momentum. Actually wind would be the bigger problem, though you could put a Savonius rotor on top