Vindicated

needle_too

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055086251&referrerid=&highlight=

Finally, what I have been warning about (the potential illegality of Airsoft in Ireland) has been verified by a govt official.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055086251&referrerid=&highlight=

The Irish Examiner has today verified and vindicated my stance here - http://www.examiner.ie/story/?jp=EYAUSNOJMH&cat=Ireland&rss=rss2 -

Stating, for the record

Among the items seized this year were 14 stun guns, a BB pistol for firing plastic ball bearings, an alarm pistol, an extendable baton and various knifes and air guns.

and

Revenue Commissioners spokesman Denis Harkin said that regardless of the intentions of the importer, all the items were considered equally illegal under the Firearms and Offensive Weapons Act 1990.

and

"They may ship these items to you but that doesn’t mean it’s legal for you to have them," Mr Harkin warned. "Some probably do get through but our people would get to know the websites and the packaging and labelling used in postage and it gets easier to detect offensive items."

Anyone found guilty of possession of an illegal weapon at district court level can be fined up to €1,000 and jailed for up to a year. Conviction in the circuit court carries a prison sentence of up to five years.

This article states clearly and quotes a govt official that these items are illegal and importation or possession of Airsoft BB guns can result in a fine or prison sentence.

I hereby request that Boards.ie and its representative (1) make clear to those on the Airsoft boards that I was correct on the issue of Airsoft illegality (2) remove the mod O1s1n who deliberately misled members and admin (3) issue and apology and return my posting rights on this topic on Boards.ie.

Jesus Wept

http://www.examiner.ie/story/?jp=EYAUSNOJMH&cat=Ireland&rss=rss2


"They may ship these items to you but that doesn’t mean it’s legal for you to have them"
"I don’t think there has been any prosecutions yet for people who genuinely wanted an item for personal safety reasons but that’s what could happen to them. People should think before they buy," said Mr Harkin.


Clear as mud :rolleyes:

And why is it a Revenue Commissioners spokesperson and not a garda spokesperson being asked anyhow? Is the main problem that people aren't declaring
tax/moneys to the revenue?

Duiske

That report does not give the muzzle velocity of the confiscated air/bb guns, so your argument is not vindictated.

randylonghorn

Would you like them to flagellate themselves on O'Connell St. while they're at it? I'm sure you have only to ask, now that you've proven them to be so abysmally and wilfully wrong! :rolleyes:

needle_too, I know NOTHING about Airsoft, except from what I've learned from a quick scan of that thread, and even I can see that the article you linked to
(a) does not say that ALL airguns which were imported were seized, or
(b) specify the muzzle velocity of those which were.

It simply says that "among the items seized this year ... were airguns".

I'll go out on a limb here and speculate that the airguns seized were over the 1 joule limit.


EDIT: That's what I get for taking too long over a post. Even at this hour of the morning there's a bloody Kilkenny man sneaking into the goal mouth ahead of me!

Giblet

needle_too wrote:

I hereby request that Boards.ie and its representative (1) make clear to those on the Airsoft boards that I was correct on the issue of Airsoft illegality (2) remove the mod O1s1n who deliberately misled members and admin (3) issue and apology and return my posting rights on this topic on Boards.ie.

I think you will be lucky if you dont get told to **** off.

Huggles

needle_too wrote:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055086251&referrerid=&highlight=

Finally, what I have been warning about (the potential illegality of Airsoft in Ireland) has been verified by a govt official.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055086251&referrerid=&highlight=

The Irish Examiner has today verified and vindicated my stance here - http://www.examiner.ie/story/?jp=EYAUSNOJMH&cat=Ireland&rss=rss2 -

Stating, for the record

and



and



This article states clearly and quotes a govt official that these items are illegal and importation or possession of Airsoft BB guns can result in a fine or prison sentence.

I hereby request that Boards.ie and its representative (1) make clear to those on the Airsoft boards that I was correct on the issue of Airsoft illegality (2) remove the mod O1s1n who deliberately misled members and admin (3) issue and apology and return my posting rights on this topic on Boards.ie.

THIS, again! :eek:

seamus

I concur. That link says absolutely nothing about the legality of the airsoft sport.

I'm going to err on the side of logic here - but surely if there are big clubs set up and people who do this thing in an organised fashion every week, then the Gardai would have stormed in and arrested them all by now? The clubs don't make any secret of their events or locations.

sioda

After following the airsoft thread the whole thing was the muzzle velocity whch is stated no where in the article please lock this b4 it starts all over again

togster

So whats this airsoft malarky about??

Meoow meoow.....

Nick_oliveri

Vendetta?....

Cuddlesworth

I'd just like to point out that thanks to needle-too's harassment of Airsoft, I am intending to go this Saturday with 2 other mates. Thank you.

Oh and Fyi, the current interpretation of the law is that it has to be over 1 joule. That article does not state that any Airsoft weapons seized were over or under 1 joule so you are still in the wrong until a judge or police statement says otherwise.

godtabh

Nick_oliveri wrote:

Vendetta?....

Sounds more like a chip on his shoulder.

Cuddlesworth

5 other mates now, maybe you should stand outside with a sign saying "Carefull now, down with that sort of thing!".

faceman

the world is flat i tells ya.

o1s1n

Not again :rolleyes:

I am convinced at this point that needles_two is simply trying to be a menace. I bet if I check the wiki entry about airsoft in Ireland, it will once again have been edit by him.

Yep, it has.

Just to show people what we're up against here, I am going to again copy and past the little note he left for me on the wiki edit page. Scary parts have been bolded.

Its got nothing to do with 'can'. Its got nothing to do with airsoft either.
Anything (that means absolutely anything, Oisin - spud guns, crossbows, whatever) with a barrel capable of firing above 1 joule is potentially illegal.

Light enhancers (IR sights), regular sights above a certain range and/or electronic sighting equipment are also illegal.
Just because you like posing with guns does NOT make it legal.

It is YOU that is hijacking this site by refusing to accept any alternate interpretation of the law.

The law is set up so that as soon as a criminal threathens someone with one of these he can be charged with possession of a weapon - not possession of a fkn toy. Thats the way the world works, son - there is no black and white.
I have taken legal advice and posted for your benefit on boards.ie - and STILL you some out with this ****e.

I am going to continuously edit and re-edit this site - I'm not gonna let some knob-jockey like you pull the wool over peoples eyes.

Failing that, I'll ring up a load of radio stations and publicise the matter that way.
You try to remove my comments/interpretation, then I'll come at you like a ****ing hurricane on another media.

As for your little "discovery" needles, most of the items seized were illegal. Just because an airsoft gun was lumped in with them means nothing.

And please explain this to me

http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?p=800275&sid=5d229952c5ccfe0fba55c082b2769e2f

Specifically post 5 by you. and this line

Everyone should have the right to hold and own any type of registered semi-automatic weapon up to non-military calibre.

So you think everyone should be allowed have a firearm, something which can kill, but airsoft should be banned?

er....what?

ambro25

Funny that plenty of bona fide Army professionals, tons of Guards and very probably a good contingent of undercover SB, didn't peep squeak at us this weekend, when we were out there promoting the sport at Salute...didn't spot anyone from the Revenue, mind

needle too wrote:

I have taken legal advice

Care to name the firm and/or Counsel, needle too?

(Note that I'm not asking you to publish Counsel's opinion, for which you paid good money)

He wants everyone to have real guns, but wants 1 joule airsoft guns outlawed. Thats a bit mad isn't it. Whats his problem with airsoft?

User45701

Well he seems very.... determinded, so from this topic i gather that this has been ongoing? this disagreement/arguement?

Why not ring one of those 666 numbers (gardai stations) and ask them what the story is?

Solve this problem?

Also if he does turn out to be right, a mod who so strongley opposed the issue should be removed, i dont know either of these posters but i do know mods can be wrong and refuse to accept it so an example would be in order IF the mod in this case turns out to be in the wrong

Nick_oliveri

He's editing your wiki pages? Feck that. Childish fecking behaviour, this lad thinks hes some sort of vigilate authorian when it comes to harmless BBguns. Shíte off with yourself ta' fuk.

o1s1n

User45701 wrote:

Why not ring one of those 666 numbers (gardai stations) and ask them what the story is?

Solve this problem?

Because we are far beyond that. To the point where we have Gardaí playing the sport with us.

We've explained all of this to him. He just doesn't listen because he "knows" he's right.

Huggles

o1s1n wrote:

The law is set up so that as soon as a criminal threathens someone with one of these he can be charged with possession of a weapon - not possession of a fkn toy. Thats the way the world works, son - there is no black and white.
I have taken legal advice and posted for your benefit on boards.ie - and STILL you some out with this ****e.

I am going to continuously edit and re-edit this site - I'm not gonna let some knob-jockey like you pull the wool over peoples eyes.

Failing that, I'll ring up a load of radio stations and publicise the matter that way.
You try to remove my comments/interpretation, then I'll come at you like a ****ing hurricane on another media.[/I]

Needles - You have totally lost the plot with this mate. Its a sport and it has fúck all to do with you so why are you so obsessed with it?

You need a hobby, I suggest knitting.

nesf

seamus wrote:

I'm going to err on the side of logic here

Your puny logic is useless here.

User45701

Is he right tho? legally speaking? are they illigal? even if gardai do get involved in the sport, i mean remember that whole todo about 2 gardai doing coke at a party a while back?

Boston

seamus wrote:

I'm going to err on the side of logic here - but surely if there are big clubs set up and people who do this thing in an organised fashion every week, then the Gardai would have stormed in and arrested them all by now? The clubs don't make any secret of their events or locations.

Just once I'd like you to err on the side of the irrational and insane. I think needle has a point, as such I'll be cutting my arms off tonight.

Anyway, about the gardi, maybe the one I was playing with was undercover, just waiting for his chance to arrest us all. You know, that type of 'hiding in plan vew' thin that gardi do sometimes to get drug dealers, pimps, killers and airsoft players.

As for the gun been taken, I can think of 3 reasons
1) Could not provide proof of purchase, as in gardi expect it to be stolen.
2) Didn't provide proof that duty was paid on import. This would explain why someone from the revenue commissioners was committing.
3) muzzle velocity suspected of being too high.

User45701

The 3rd one seems most likley a few years back it was possible to obtain 1000fps pointed tipped BB rifles, a definate threat

smashey

From needles' wiki notes
Its got nothing to do with 'can'. Its got nothing to do with airsoft either.
Anything (that means absolutely anything, Oisin - spud guns, crossbows, whatever) with a barrel capable of firing above 1 joule is potentially illegal.

I can just see a massive round up of kids. Oh and the shopkeepers as well for selling the ammunition. And the farmers for growing this illegal ammunition.

Boston

User45701 wrote:

Is he right tho? legally speaking? are they illigal? even if gardai do get involved in the sport, i mean remember that whole todo about 2 gardai doing coke at a party a while back?

No, as in the law classifies a firearm as something which can fire a projectile with a energy of more then 1 joule. Anything below that is a toy as far as the law is concerned. So no more illegal then a dart gun you'd buy a child. Furthermore paint ball markers can fire far in excess of the one joule limit and as such are licensed. So the whole legal vs illegal thing is miss leading. It really comes down to whether or not you need a license to own the guns. You don't for airsoft, you do for paintball.

Needles point is that airsoft guns can be fired with a energy greater then 1 joule if you modify them. This is true but it is a play on the use of the word can in the law.

Hivemind187

this is totally out of hand.

Firstly, a revenue inspector is not an official authority for the interpretation of the firearms law, nor is a Gardai etc

A duly appointed judge is. End of argument.

As for the idea of being vindicated ... ha ... haha ... hahahahamuwahahah what utter garbage. A poxy article in the examiner in no way proves or disproves anything, nor does a quote from an official referring to objects separate from the sport of airsoft.

o1s1n

User45701 wrote:

Is he right tho? legally speaking? are they illigal? even if gardai do get involved in the sport, i mean remember that whole todo about 2 gardai doing coke at a party a while back?

There is a sticky all about the legality in the airsoft forum.

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055003480

Since the 2006 firearms act they are no longer classed as a firearm if they are under 1 joule of power.

We have had this confirmed by Gardai, legal bodies, customs and others.

It's well beyond the point of legal confirmation. The sport is taking off rapidly and interest is growing an a phenomenal rate. We just had demonstration and tent at the Salute show this weekend in Swords. People were very very interested.

The only people who weren't interested were the Gardai on patrol at the event.

Vegeta

User45701 wrote:

Is he right tho? legally speaking? are they illigal?

No as of the CJA 2006 as they are under 1 joule they are legal to use in their sporting role.

They can be seen as an offensive weapon i.e. if a person was to rob a bank with one then it may be classed as an offensive weapon but so would a baseball bat so should we ban baseball and softball also.

Most people have big carving knives in their kitchens with are classed as weapons if you were to go and abuse them. Hurley, length of pipe, hockey sticks, darts, hammer etc etc etc can all be used as weapons but that does not mean their primary role is as a weapon. The only way someone could be hurt by an airsoft gun is if you belted them with it.

The OP is clearly anti-airsoft and all logic is lost on him. Luckily for the airsoft guys most people would probably love to have a go of their sport so normal folks will see someone like the OP think he is a complete nutter and choose airsofts side.

The law is clearly on the side of air-soft so this persons arguement is completely null and void.

Now he can attack it at other angles but in terms of it being legal/illegal the OP is 100% incorrect.

Hivemind187

As a note of proof.

I spent the last two days manning the tent with some of the others explaining airsoft to folks. The Gardai came along, peaked in the windows, chatted with their co-worker who was also helping man the tent and then moved on.

If there had of been an issue of legality we would have all been banged up by now considering the VAST number of units in the tent.

Boston

That is very true. If the guy used the airsoft gun in a criminal act it would be classed as a weapon in that situation.

User45701

I see and a Joule, i dont know how this compares to feet per second which is how airsoft was measured when i used to have a interest in it

Boston

User45701 wrote:

I see and a Joule, i dont know how this compares to feet per second which is how airsoft was measured when i used to have a interest in it

They are interelated. The brits use fps afaik. 1 joule equates to approx 320 - 350 fps.

godtabh

Any chance you could post the wiki page?

o1s1n

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_issues_in_airsoft#Ireland

I'll edit it back to the correct way in a little while. You can probably guess which part he has added.

ambro25

User45701 wrote:

Is he right tho? legally speaking?

"Legally speaking" (IANAL), I'll highlight the relevant parts, for your benefit.

o1s1n, quoting needle too wrote:

anything with a barrel capable of firing above 1 joule is potentially (i) illegal.

The law is set up so that as soon as a criminal threathens someone(ii) with one of these he can be charged with possession of a weapon - not possession of a fkn toy. Thats the way the world works, son - there is no black and white (iii).

(i) Any length of mostly-metallic tube is capable of firing anything that fits inside above 1 joule, given appropriate modifications.

So, claiming that an airsoft device is illegal (no ifs) because it could be modified to fire over 1J, indeed amounts to claiming that "any length of mostly-metallic tube" is illegal.

I hope you got shares in plastic tubing/hose manufacturers, because there's a few billion yards of metallic tubing sitting on building wholesalers' shelves in this country.

(ii) There is a distinct difference between threatening someone for criminal purposes with an imitation firearm, and owning one for sport/recreational purposes: we airsoft practitionners are generally (I do not purport to speak for all) in favour of such an 'use an airsoft device criminally, go down as if it was the real one' position.

Whether it's an airsoft device, or indeed a €0,99 plastic toy.

There is no argument with needle too's position there.

But it has nothing to do with the legality of an airsoft device (per the Firearms Act), and all to do with sanctioning criminal behaviour (per the Criminal Act - or qhatever it's called): in this particular case, it's needle too who doesn't really understand hsi own argument - or evidence that the guy is clutching at straws. Whatever, point is moot.

(iii) As with absolutely anything to do with Law in a Case Law-based jurisdiction (=IE, UK and many other UK-insprired systems (AU, NZ, SG, etc.)), the Law is a guide and indeed nothing is ever black and white and everything is open to interpretation by a Judge, on the facts.

The meaning of the Law as stated in the Act is given through a series of consecutive judgements, causally linked on the facts - there has not been any judgement in respect of anything airsoft in Ireland, therefore:

* needle too has his interpretation,
* allegedly he also benefits from Counsel's opinion,
* we have our interpretation and,
* so far as the legality of the sport, as assessed by relevant Authorities, is concerned, so have the relevant Authorities, which have authorised (in writing) at least one venue to date in the Republic, after inspection of the equipment and facilities.

Vegeta

User45701 wrote:

I see and a Joule, i dont know how this compares to feet per second which is how airsoft was measured when i used to have a interest in it

depends on the weight of the projectile. A lighter projectile needs to be travelling faster to reach the 1 joule limit so giving a feet per second (fps) figure is misleading and ill-advised.

for example for a bb weighing X fired at say 320 fps this may be under 1 joule. The danger here lies in the fact people may think that 320 fps is a golden rule and fire bbs weighing 10X at 320 fps easily breaking the 1 joule. (largely exagerated to highlight a point)

the guys will post with specifics i'm sure

o1s1n

Sorry if it seems I am pedantic, but if anyone is quoting needle two's comment in the wiki entry which I have included in my first post, could you please take my name out of it?

All your quotes are starting with

"o1s1n said"

Don't want people getting confused.




oh I see you've already said needles said it, sorry ambro!

Boston

Thats a fair point, its energy so it will be related to the mass of the bb, the standard is .2g for for a standard bb 1 joule will get you 320fps ~ 350fps.

Hivemind187

Vegeta wrote:

depends on the weight of the projectile. A lighter projectile needs to be travelling faster to reach the 1 joule limit so giving a feet per second (fps) figure is misleading and ill-advised.

for example for a bb weighing X fired at say 320 fps this may be under 1 joule. The danger here lies in the fact people may think that 320 fps is a golden rule and fire bbs weighing 10X at 320 fps easily breaking the 1 joule. (largely exagerated to highlight a point)

the guys will post with specifics i'm sure

A 0.2gram BB travelling at 328 feet per second will have an energy of 1joule.

The power is regulated by the potential energy contained in the spring used to drive the piston. Therefore, using a 0.25gram BB will travel at a slower velocity yet impart the same 1joule of energy.

Science, y'a gotta love it.

ambro25

o1s1n wrote:

oh I see you've already said needles said it, sorry ambro!

Not pedantic at all, m8 - I thought it looked odd, the second I re-read it once posted

monkey tennis

Nick_oliveri wrote:

Vendetta?....

Yup, this guy should take it to 'personal issues' rather than 'feedback' tbh. Very childish.

User45701 wrote:

Also if he does turn out to be right, a mod who so strongley opposed the issue should be removed

Why? Should a regular user be banned because their opinion (even if incorrectly researched) differs from another user's?
A mod is there for cleanup duties, and are otherwise a regular user - they are not an ambassador of boards, nor are they a minister for their particular forum topic.

Vegeta

Hivemind187 wrote:

A 0.2gram BB travelling at 328 feet per second will have an energy of 1joule.

The power is regulated by the potential energy contained in the spring used to drive the piston. Therefore, using a 0.25gram BB will travel at a slower velocity yet impart the same 1joule of energy.

Science, y'a gotta love it.

Thanks for the specifics.

I suppose the danger with fps figures is that someone using 0.25g bbs tunes it until they get 328 fps or above as they think 328 fps is the legal limit and don't understand why the 1 joule is important

o1s1n

monkey tennis wrote:

Why? Should a regular user be banned because their opinion (even if incorrectly researched) differs from another user's?
A mod is there for cleanup duties, and are otherwise a regular user - they are not an ambassador of boards.

If the admins think I've done something wrong, I'd happily give up the position of moderator without a fuss.

The thing is though, they don't. We are right, end of. I think we're feeding this troll a little too much.

ambro25

Vegeta wrote:

I suppose the danger...

That's why the Law says 1 Joule, not 328 FPS[/'needle too' mode]

...looks around, puzzled... "Is this still feedback or have I got the wrong Forum again?"

godtabh

o1s1n wrote:

If the admins think I've done something wrong, I'd happily give up the position of moderator without a fuss.

The thing is though, they don't. We are right, end of. I think we're feeding this troll a little too much.

Having only ready whats in this thread and what was post in the link the OP posted in his first thread I would agree with this.

Is there any chance the OP is a banned user coming back for revenge and stirring things up?

Dave!

This guy's a bit on the mental side of things... He got legal advice, apparantly from a bargain basement lawyer, and now is so adament that he's in the right that he's going to go on a mad one to try and stop everyone playing the sport.

Just to compare -- he got advice from 1 person. We have gotten approval from customs, the Gardaí, and the DPP.

There is no more argument about it being legal. This thread should now concentrate on what is driving the OP, and exactly what kind of mental disorder he has.

kinkstr

Stop feeding the psychotic troll people.

Cuddlesworth

DaveMcG wrote:

There is no more argument about it being legal. This thread should now concentrate on what is driving the OP, and exactly what kind of mental disorder he has.

Fruit and Nut disorder.

o1s1n

I see the airsoft wiki has been edited back in our favour again. Nicely done.