From Dublin to Paris...via Belfast? (...by train!)

jmkennedyie

Spotted this in a newsletter from Centre for Cross Border Studies and thought of all of you

http://www.crossborder.ie/home/ndn/ndn0708.html

FROM DUBLIN TO PARIS…VIA BELFAST? - Andy Pollak
The summer is a time for mad ideas, they say. So as summer turns into autumn, here is one slightly mad, visionary idea involving cooperation between Ireland, Northern Ireland, Scotland and beyond. A Dublin reader of this 'Note' has pointed me towards a recent article in the Economist1 about Europe's new high-speed (above 250 kilometres per hour) continent-wide rail marketing network, stretching from Seville to Stockholm, from Naples to Glasgow.

According to this article, Europe is “in the grip of a high-speed rail revolution,” led by France and Germany’s state-owned railways. With international passenger rail services being opened up to competition from 2010, the writer believes that “the prospects for Europe's trains have hardly been better since the great age of steam.”

My Dublin reader remarked on the map accompanying the article, which showed that the only country in Western Europe not connected to this network was Ireland. Noting that the closest point between Ireland and Britain is the North Channel separating Northern Ireland and Galloway in south west Scotland, he suggested that a high-speed rail link could be built between Dublin, Belfast and Glasgow, via a bridge or tunnel across that narrow seaway (21 miles wide at its closest point), thus connecting Ireland, via London, into the European network.

The arguments against such a hugely ambitious proposal can be easily listed, led by the extremely high cost of building a bridge or tunnel between two under-populated and peripheral regions of Britain and Ireland. The 22.5 mile road bridge between Shanghai and Ningbo (believed to be the longest sea-crossing bridge in the world), which is due to open in 2009, is costing around Stg£750 million in a country with one of the industrialised world's lowest labour costs – although a more relevant comparison might be the €5 billion (Stg£3.4 billion) the Irish government is proposing to spend on a 10.5 mile rail link from Dublin airport to the city centre. The Stranraer-Glasgow line would also have to be expensively upgraded.

But the arguments in favour are worth hearing too. Firstly, such a link would provide a massive boost to economic and social links between both parts of Ireland and Scotland, something a lot of people, including the Taoiseach and both the Northern Irish and Scottish First Ministers, view as an unadulterated good. Secondly it would take pressure off Ireland’s increasingly overloaded, and therefore unsustainable, airports (one statistic: there were over 21 million passenger journeys from Dublin Airport last year, equivalent to each person in the country making five air journeys, and almost half of these were to the UK).

Thirdly it would open Ireland, North and South, up to much faster, and therefore greater, British and European trade and tourism opportunities. And fourthly it would give an enormous boost to the idea of the Dublin-Belfast corridor as the vehicle for the next stage in the island of Ireland’s economic development.

It could even go further. It could facilitate what the Dublin architects Heneghan.Peng, in an exhibit as part of Ireland's prize-winning contribution to the last year’s International Architecture Biennale at Venice, call the 'ElastiCity.'2 This is a futuristic city that instead of clustering around a traditional dense urban core, would stretch as multi-centred metropolis composed of a series of nodes along an infrastructure link like a river or a railway. It would avoid the kind of unguided and unsustainable urban sprawl that Dublin has experienced over the past decade, the architects claim. Their idea is for an east coast linear city between Dublin and Wexford stretching along a new high-speed rail link from Dublin to London, via a bridge linking Rosslare and South Wales.

Our northern version of the east coast linear city has two clear advantages over this. Firstly, the bridge to Wales would have to be 50 miles long, making it the longest bridge in the world by a distance and almost certainly an engineering and financial challenge too far. Secondly, the development of a Dublin-Belfast economic corridor through existing major urban areas such as Drogheda, Dundalk, Newry and Craigavon is already a 15 year old working concept, enthusiastically espoused by spatial planners in both Irish jurisdictions.

If our northern 'rail crescent' dream comes true, the outcome by the year 2030 could be something like this: the European commuter or tourist could take a 300 kilometre per hour train from Dublin's Connolly Station at four in the afternoon (and Belfast Central at 4.40) and arrive at London’s King’s Cross at 8 pm and Paris's Gare du Nord at 11.30 pm. Now wouldn't that turn even the most sceptical Ulsterman into an enthusiastic European?

Slice

These ideas always get floated about from time to time. There's the link between NI and Scotland, the one connecting Dublin and Hollyhead and the one connecting Rosslare and Swansea. No Irish Government would ever be in the position to put up the kind of money to finance it though.

Imagine how horrific Connolly would be with all these high-speed trains thrown into the mixture. Also what's so high-speed about them if they have to stall at Howth Junction to let darts pass...

John R

That is so much pie in the sky nonsense, it has no basis in reality.

It would be safe to say that there is not much chance of any direct services to continental Europe from any British city other than London in the medium term.

Any significant speed increases in London-Scotland services would require a new build HS line and there is no real political appetite for that in the UK.

Even if all that article were true the journey times would not be close to competitive with airlines.

Victor

I imagine they wouldn't operate from Connolly, not as we understand Connolly now at any rate.

nordydan

You can't even get from Belfast to Derry via train in less that 2 hours. Total bollocks

Fratton Fred

A 50 mile bridge accross the fog filled Irish sea. Imagine trotting over that at 300Ks and a 50,000 tonne oil tanker sails into a support. No thanks.

bill_ashmount

Never going to happen.

Maskhadov

any tunnel from ireland to the UK should be the tuskar tunnel. A second tunnel in the north would be a lot later.

OTK

I don't think the plan is completely crazy.

In its favour:
The distance between Edinburgh and Belfast via Glasgow is under 250 Km, so approx the same as Dublin-Cork, yet this corridor would have three cities of around the same size as Dublin.

Denmark's bridge/tunnel to Sweden has shown the such a structure can safely be constructed and allow for shipping.

The Danish bridge cost around €4bn to cross arounds two thirds the distance of Scotland-Ireland. €6bn doesn't seem so huge compared to other infrastructure projects in Ireland.

There are close cultural ties between Scotland and NI and much traffic between the two already.

Dublin-Glasgow by train or car would compete well with the plane given the distance (around 310K).

icdg

Has anyone yet mentioned that Irish gauge is different to that of Great Britain (and the rest of Europe, for that matter). Would seem to be a big technical obstacle to said proposals...

It is rather pie-in-the sky though, there are many other infrastructure projects I would priorities over an NI-Scotland rail link.

Richard

icdg wrote:

Has anyone yet mentioned that Irish gauge is different to that of Great Britain (and the rest of Europe, for that matter). Would seem to be a big technical obstacle to said proposals...

It is rather pie-in-the sky though, there are many other infrastructure projects I would priorities over an NI-Scotland rail link.

That is true, though given that the line would need to be upgraded anyway, the changes required to this and existing rolling stock in Ireland wouldn't be a huge concern given the scale of the project.

It would be a nice thing to happen, but I can't see the British Government, the Northern Ireland or Scottish Executives wanting to fund something so huge in the near future, even if they could get financing from the Irish Government as well.

I think, actually, that a tunnel from near Dublin to Wales would be better. Although it would be more costly to make, journeys from much of the Republic would be a lot shorter than a NI-Scotland route, and journeys from Northern Ireland would be about the same.

A Dub in Glasgo

It is nonsense stuff

The British Government will not even consider a new high speed line connecting Scotland to London that really competes with the airlines. You would be amazed at the number of daily flight from Glasgow & Edinburgh to the London area, it is mind boggling

jlang

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

It is nonsense stuff

The British Government will not even consider a new high speed line connecting Scotland to London that really competes with the airlines. You would be amazed at the number of daily flight from Glasgow & Edinburgh to the London area, it is mind boggling

They haven't finished upgrading the roads from Scotland->London roads to motorway yet. It'll be a while before high speed rail does the trip. That said, I believe they'll extend the CTRL-quality line up towards Birmingham and then Manchester within the next few years and possibly run some of the Eurostar services on to these cities.

monument

jlang wrote:

That said, I believe they'll extend the CTRL-quality line up towards Birmingham and then Manchester within the next few years and possibly run some of the Eurostar services on to these cities.

They have taken long enough to build stage 2 of the London end of the Channel Tunnel Rail Link.

Victor

jlang wrote:

They haven't finished upgrading the roads from Scotland->London roads to motorway yet. It'll be a while before high speed rail does the trip. That said, I believe they'll extend the CTRL-quality line up towards Birmingham and then Manchester within the next few years and possibly run some of the Eurostar services on to these cities.

The only section of London - Glasgow that isn't motorway is Carlisle - Gretna Green, all of 11km of HQDC and London inside the A406 ring.

I'm not sure if they've come to a decision on London - Edinburgh, it was once suggested to create a motorway along the A702 axis or extend the M11 up the east coast via the Humber Bridge.

A Dub in Glasgo

Victor wrote:

The only section of London - Glasgow that isn't motorway is Carlisle - Gretna Green, all of 11km of HQDC and London inside the A406 ring.

I'm not sure if they've come to a decision on London - Edinburgh, it was once suggested to create a motorway along the A702 axis or extend the M11 up the east coast via the Humber Bridge.

As you go M74 -> M73 -> A8 (HQDC) -> M8 to Edinburgh, it can be argued that London to Edinburgh is mainly motorway/HQDC.

Metrobest

High-speed rail is definately the way of the future and it looks like Ireland is going to miss the boat - pardon the pun.

In a few years time it´ll be quicker to travel the 1000KM from Barcelona to Paris than it currently is from Cork to Dublin. As Ireland dithers over the basics, such as metro lines, the rest of Western Europe, having done all that decades ago, is setting its sights on bigger projects.

Ireland is living in the era of snail rail. Meanwhile, the continental EU countries are pouring hundreds billions into a highspeed network, which has significant benefits over aviation in terms of speed, connectivity, passenger comfort and, of course, the environment. It makes Transport 21 look hopelessly inadequate.

Spain is investing €250bn in its highspeed network, which will be the biggest in the world. Malaga to Madrid in 90 minutes, Madrid to Barcelona in 2 hours.. It´s going to revolutionise mobility in Spain.

Meanwhile, back in Dublin, commentators and "environment" correspondents foam at the mouth over a €5bn investment in a metro line.

It´s a funny old world.

monument

There seams to be massive opposition on these boards any time any kind of real high speed rail for Ireland is mentioned.

Tazz T

Certainly not from me. I just don't believe that the powers that be are for too short-sighted to actually action any of this.

The fact that's theres still no direct railway line between Derry and Dublin, despite 25 years of debate, is an utter joke.

Richard

Tazz T wrote:

The fact that's theres still no direct railway line between Derry and Dublin, despite 25 years of debate, is an utter joke.

Is there much of a debate?

The line from Belfast-Derry isn't that popular, so is there really a demand for a Derry-Dublin line? Of course, it would be nice.

I suspect that there may be political concerns, because it would mean that somewhere like Enniskillen would have a direct railway line to the Republic's capital, but not to its own.

We shall see...

bryanw

I think we are really going to have to get our act together (ahem... Irish Rail) before we can even begin to talk about high speed rail. Its too far away to even be called a dream. Our Inter City network isn't even electrified!

At lease were not alone, I don't see Britain spending 250 billion on high speed rail.

Metrobest

bryanw wrote:

I think we are really going to have to get our act together (ahem... Irish Rail) before we can even begin to talk about high speed rail. Its too far away to even be called a dream. Our Inter City network isn't even electrified!

At lease were not alone, I don't see Britain spending 250 billion on high speed rail.

We are alone, I´m afraid. Britain is linked into the high speed network with the Channel Tunnel. And that was a massively dear piece of infrastructure which would never have been built were Britain like Ireland, because the British Frank McDonald would have tried to kill it off because it was too expensive!

OTK

Richard wrote:

The line from Belfast-Derry isn't that popular...

No mystery here. Average speed for this journey is 34mph.

Belfast-Dublin does 48mph. Dublin-Cork 58mph.

London-Glasgow 72mph

Paris-Avignon 166mph

I'm not sure it was right to four-track Dublin-Hazelhatch before the Northern line, given that the populations and distance of Dublin-Belfast beat Dublin-Cork. Dublin-Belfast could be an hour apart without HSR.

bill_ashmount

OTK wrote:

Belfast-Dublin does 48mph. Dublin-Cork 58mph.

Paris-Avignon 166mph

Wow, imagine if the Cork-Dublin line was like the Paris-Avignon line. You'd get to Dublin (or away from Dublin ) in less than an hour.

Richard

Metrobest wrote:

We are alone, I´m afraid. Britain is linked into the high speed network with the Channel Tunnel. And that was a massively dear piece of infrastructure which would never have been built were Britain like Ireland, because the British Frank McDonald would have tried to kill it off because it was too expensive!

But wasn't the Channel Tunnel paid for, at least in part, by a huge amount of private money?

Hagar

Remind me again how long the Dart is, how late it was and how far over budget it was. It's OK, no need to remind me about it not meeting in the middle, I remember that bit.

The same geniuses responsible for that money sucking fiasco would be masterminding a high speed rail link?

The only way the people of Ireland will have a functioning high-speed rail system available to them is if they all come and live in my garage, I have one forty minutes away.

Victor

Hagar wrote:

Remind me again how long the Dart is, how late it was and how far over budget it was. It's OK, no need to remind me about it not meeting in the middle, I remember that bit.

**Cough**

OTK

Between them, DART and Luas now carry about 50m passengers a year. Both are operationally profitable. Money invested in the these lines was certainly recouped in many ways. More people can now get around faster in the city. These journeys do not endanger peoples' lives and they create less pollution and noise than car equivalents. More people can now live within the city limits.

The improvements in quality of life along the routes were reflected in the increased property prices relative to other areas of Dublin.

As pointed out above, large projects often suffer delays and cost overruns - even the channel tunnel which was 100% privately financed and constructed.

Hagar

@ Victor Linky God Bless.

paulm17781

Hagar wrote:

Remind me again how long the Dart is, how late it was and how far over budget it was. It's OK, no need to remind me about it not meeting in the middle, I remember that bit.

I'm pretty certain it was on time (I was only 3) and it does meet in the middle.

Metrobest

Richard wrote:

But wasn't the Channel Tunnel paid for, at least in part, by a huge amount of private money?

Still, they built it.

My point is simply that the infrastructure gap between Ireland and continental Europe is actually widening, not closing.

Why can Spain afford to spend billions and billions on high speed rail, and why is the Barcelona metro being extended left, right and centre, yet Dublin´s metro is being scrutinised as if it were a nuclear weapon?

For all this talk about Ireland´s "enteprise culture" the simple fact of the matter is that we are not entreprenurial; where other countries lead, Ireland follows. I

Ireland has a parochial system of government which is held to account by a shockingly inept media which always has its eye on the wrong ball.