€1-€2 PLO table-breaker hand from last night.

CaptainNemo

6-handed €1-€2 PLO at the Macau, crazy loose game with a €5 straddle. I have about €1500 in front of me. Very loose, gambly player to my immediate right (who we'll call X) with about €900 which he has built up in about half an hour from a €100 buy-in. 2 seats to my left is a solid, tight player with good judgement who I hate being in pots with, who is playing probably about €800. Everyone else has (comparatively) small stacks ranging from €50 - €150.

The straddle is called all the way around to X who makes it €25 to go. I can't remember exactly where the button is, but I think it's on me. I call with 10s6s6x5x. I am aware that this is a bad hand. I'm calling because I feel that if I flop something big I have huge implied odds against X who has shown many times that he will both make and call big bets without the nuts.

Terrible call or understandable?

Solid player calls 25. One of the short stacks then checkraises all in for probably about €100 and another goes in behind him for slightly less. Then the shortest one calls all-in. X calls and I call the remaining 75, still aiming for a side pot against X. Solid player also calls.

Terrible call or understandable?

The flop comes 9s8s7c. Solid player checks, X bets about €150 into the empty pot and has about 700-750 left behind. I have the 2nd nuts with a flush draw and a 1-outer to the absolute nuts.

Call / fold / shove?

valor

pot

cardshark202

Preflop is terrible. Whats X's range for leading the flop in your opinion?

BigCityBanker

you really really should not be in this hand.

CaptainNemo

I had X's range for leading the flop as any of the possible straights (JT, T6, 65), A large pair with the nut flush draw, or any set. Then we have the nightmare scenario that he has the nuts with the nut flush draw, which I thought to be very unlikely.

Thinking about it again, I think even this player would check on that dangerous a flop with just a set or a flush draw. I'm not 100% sure and it depends how he is playing. I've seen him play decent aggressive poker and I've seen him donk tons of chips off, depending on whether he's on tilt. Based on him currently NOT being on tilt, and having a big stack, maybe I have to put him on a made hand here.

CaptainNemo

BigCityBanker wrote:

you really really should not be in this hand.

Agreed. But it was a very loose game and it was hard to stay out of the action...I'm learning the hard way that one of the finer arts of PLO is not playing hands that can get you into the kind of trouble I'm in here.

gosplan

Surely with 500 in the pot already a hand containing 10 J with no redraws is going to push this a lot harder.

Maybe trips with FD or 10 Q with FD?

DeadParrot

valor wrote:

pot

dot.

Ace2007

CaptainNemo wrote:

Agreed. But it was a very loose game and it was hard to stay out of the action...I'm learning the hard way that one of the finer arts of PLO is not playing hands that can get you into the kind of trouble I'm in here.

we've all being there - but i think you've got to fold here, cause as you said you have only 1 out to the nuts...

CaptainNemo

I potted it and X went all-in and I called the remaining few chips. He had AKJT rainbow for the current nuts. The turn was an offsuit 10, river a blank, I missed my flush draw, no one had QJ and he took down the entire pot with the J high straight.

Opinion from a couple of voices from the table was that I should flat call the flop, after which I can get away from it on the turn if he bets big or get a free card if he checks because he no longer has the nuts. I felt this was all fine with hindsight but I felt his range included sets or flush draws that I should play fast against.

CaptainNemo

P.S. for those who like to hear happy endings. The table didn't break, everyone rebought and I went on to make it all back again.

DeadParrot

Yay!

RoundTower

this point is stupid because it depends so much what X is.

White Knight

playing bad starting hands against bad players is less profitable than playing good starting hands stronger against bad players imo.

In fact playing bad starting hands (no matter how good you are) will get you in trouble more than you will benefit from them

CaptainNemo

White Knight wrote:

playing bad starting hands against bad players is less profitable than playing good starting hands stronger against bad players imo.

In fact playing bad starting hands (no matter how good you are) will get you in trouble more than you will benefit from them

I'm learning this. It's really the same idea as not playing ragged aces in Hold'Em. You may win a few small pots when you hit an ace and no one else does but you may lose a big one when someone flops a bigger ace.

Any time I've lost a really huge Omaha pot it's been because I've called preflop with a dubious hand and hit the flop hard with it. Last night I called 30 preflop (I was last to act and there were 4 callers already, in my defense) with 7-7-5-3, flopped middle set on a board of 8-7-3 (2 clubs) and got beaten for a very large pot when someone with the ace high flush draw and a gutshot outdrew me on the river. Fair enough I was good when the money went in, but all the way home I was kicking myself for being in the pot at all. I mean, he could just as easily have had a set of 8s. Up to that point in the night I'd been playing very tight with a lot of success.

This thread is probably for all those who are learning Omaha lessons the hard way, like me :-P

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

feefeen

nemo
ur what we call a bitch
omaha is not ur game stick to the
bottle snatching hold'em where a pair of balls are
not a requirement

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

kryogen

feefeen wrote:

nemo
ur what we call a bitch
omaha is not ur game stick to the
bottle snatching hold'em where a pair of balls are
not a requirement

LOL what is the point in saying this like???

anyway, as you know yourself you really should not be in this hand, i mean you have comitted 50xbb's with rubbish!! no matter what implied odds you are getting if you flop big you are not making profit in the long run. also the tight player who you dont like playing pots with is after calling the shove too?? why would you want to be up against him with your holding?

bottom line, you dont make money playing bad starting hands, good hand selection is essential for long term winning.

CaptainNemo

kryogen wrote:

LOL what is the point in saying this like???

anyway, as you know yourself you really should not be in this hand, i mean you have comitted 50xbb's with rubbish!! no matter what implied odds you are getting if you flop big you are not making profit in the long run. also the tight player who you dont like playing pots with is after calling the shove too?? why would you want to be up against him with your holding?

bottom line, you dont make money playing bad starting hands, good hand selection is essential for long term winning.

I know many experienced Omaha players probably are looking at this thread wondering how they can get in a game with me but I only really learn from experience and getting beaten up & seeing what works & what doesn't so this is my way, I can afford to do it and I won't always be the value in the game...

In Holdem I often play bad hands if there's a lot of people in the pot because if you flop the nuts or near-nuts it tends to stay the nuts, which isn't true of Omaha at all - you need hands that play many ways or have redraws, or have less potential to flop the 2nd nuts. So this is probably the biggest thing I'm learning.

I only posted this hand to find out how badly people thought I played it not to say "Oh my god look how unlucky I was!"

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

CaptainNemo

LuckyLloyd wrote:

You shouldn't be. One of the most common and widely used misconceptions at Irish cash tables is that of "value". "AH SHUR - I HAVE TO NOW DON'T I!!". When you play bad hands in multiway pots you lose money over time. And the rare time that you flop some outlandish monster and get paid off creates an illusion that playing rubbish hands is clever. Tighten up pre - flop!!

Yes, value, I hate hearing people saying that word when I've just raised 15 with aces...but in NL you can raise people off their draws after the flop. In Omaha good starting hands seem to win more because of their redraw potential than through flopping the best hand...

Also, it's hard to maintain your cool and play tight when you're sitting at a table that's literally insane with 1 guy raising every hand and getting multiple callers...I can handle that in Holdem by sitting tight and waiting for a big hand but this doesn't work so well in Omaha.

kryogen

i learned everything i know (as little as that is) by losing aswell, i think that books go so far but there is no substitution for experience in my mind! i think you have to make mistakes to learn from them!

omaha is a completely different animal to holdem, i think it requires alot more discipline, in general folding is the last thing people learn to do in poker, and being able to fold no matter how pretty your hand is is essential in omaha!

sitout

wow im missing these games so much. im so broke atm (bought a house , going on holiday and saving to get married). i totally understand you being in this pot alan, however you still should not be in it! i find these games espically in the macau that waiting for the right starting hand is the most profitable play! its just so loose in there, so when you do have the goods and you get to pump the pot or re pump the pot you are still getting called by at least one if not two players and you know your in good shape pre flop.
i think sometimes players are afraid if they dont get involved with the fish someone else will and they will lose out on profit they so dearly desire. however this GREED is a double edged sword and can sometimes lead the normally solid/gifted player to follow the benjamens as apposed to the their pre meditated game plan! still i have often played in these fat games and too have been swept up in the greed rush so im no one to comment. it is however easy to sit back at home with all the clarity in the world and say what you should and should not do

sound
shiobhan

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

i think sometimes players are afraid if they dont get involved with the fish someone else will and they will lose out on profit they so dearly desire.

This is exactly it. I usually start off playing a tight game but these Omaha games in the Macau can descend quite quickly into madness and I tend to get caught up in it because I'm afraid that the guy next to me who just threw in his stack against me with an overpair and hit his 2-outer is going to get cleaned out by someone else before I can land him!

I've also been learning why hands like 4-5-6-7 or 6-7-8-9, suited or not, are regarded as marginal. At first I thought "Hey these hands are nearly 50% when you run them heads-up against Aces" but you would have to be sure that's what you're up against. The problem is that in multiway pots, even if you flop the nuts, they are always vulnerable to redraws, so you can hit your dream flop and still not be in a good position to win the hand. When you play premium hands and hit the nuts there's more of a chance that it will stay the nuts or that if the nuts change then YOU will be the one with the big redraw.

I've lost a few pots recently purely through playing hands that have the potential to make 2nd nuts. For instance, would you play a J-J-7-6 double suited? It seemed good enough to call a raise with, to me. But I lost a big pot when the J-7 made me the 2nd nut straight. This is very similar to the 10-6 hand I discussed in the original post in this thread. Fair enough, maybe in Omaha it's safest simply to fold when you have the 2nd nuts and someone is betting into you. However, in both of these cases I was fairly sure that the person betting into me was aggressive enough (or bad enough) that they didn't have to have the nuts to bet. So the safest thing would be that if you see a hand with the potential to make 2nd nuts (let's say with a 4-gapper in it for straights, or a suited king) to just throw it away in most circumstances?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

CaptainNemo

LuckyLloyd wrote:

Unless you play postflop exceptionally well; you should have a very tight pre - flop range as it will decrease the amount of marginal decisions you get into. If you are uncomfortable in anyway when playing omaha and are finding yourself continuously losing lots of money with non - nut hands you should probably be tossing away suited Kings and lower pairs to raises pre - flop.

Though I'm only an omaha beginner - 5starpool is the man to give advice in this situation.

What about if you're in a game with a straddle where every hand is being raised preflop by a maniac with a big stack who is usually getting multiple callers?

I can probably answer this question myself now that I think of it: ignore the action, be patient, wait for better starting hands and play them aggressively :-P

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

CaptainNemo

LuckyLloyd wrote:

So if you fold a couple of orbits and wait for a non - gapped, double suited connectors holding; or AAxx we are guaranteed some action when we pump the sh!t out of it?? Why wouldn't we wait?

You're right. There was a known "ultra-tight" player at the table playing a short stack and he was still getting loads of action when he played a hand. People would say "Uh oh, double suited aces!" as they called him.

eoghan104

CaptainNemo wrote:

What about if you're in a game with a straddle where every hand is being raised preflop by a maniac with a big stack who is usually getting multiple callers?

I can probably answer this question myself now that I think of it: ignore the action, be patient, wait for better starting hands and play them aggressively :-P

I find it hard to play in these kind of games aswell. I find my self constantly in spots where ive called a straddle with a hand like 5678 and then someone re pops it gets 5 callers and its back to me getting like 6/1 on the call and obviousley then I have to call.

I dont think the answer is to sit and wait for AA and KK though as all the pots are muliway and those hands dont hold up well. Plus it will be incredibly easy to read you. I think run down hands like 6789 ds are great in these kind of games.

sitout

CaptainNemo wrote:

. For instance, would you play a J-J-7-6 double suited? It seemed good enough to call a raise with, to me. But I lost a big pot when the J-7 made me the 2nd nut straight.

yes i would play this sort of hand ! but i would try not to get involved in a big pot with only the second nutz, what ever about holdem 2nd nutz in omaha is fukc all good usually!

CaptainNemo

eoghan104 wrote:

I find it hard to play in these kind of games aswell. I find my self constantly in spots where ive called a straddle with a hand like 5678 and then someone re pops it gets 5 callers and its back to me getting like 6/1 on the call and obviousley then I have to call.

I dont think the answer is to sit and wait for AA and KK though as all the pots are muliway and those hands dont hold up well. Plus it will be incredibly easy to read you. I think run down hands like 6789 ds are great in these kind of games.

I think you're right too but in multiway pots those hands are vulnerable to hands like JT98 etc. Maybe the thing to do is not to call with the double suited 6789 but reraise the pot to try and get heads up with the maniac when your hand may be in good shape?

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

yes i would play this sort of hand ! but i would try not to get involved in a big pot with only the second nutz, what ever about holdem 2nd nutz in omaha is fukc all good usually!

I got sucked into it. When he bet it on the turn I thought he might be betting the nut flush draw or a set. Then when he bets it on the river I felt he might still be representing and that I had to call.

The problem with that hand was I was out of position. In position when I'm being bet into I would have an easier time folding but OOP when I've checked it's clear I don't have the nuts so I can be bluffed at - 2nd nuts is a good bluff catching hand - but it's also a good way to lose your stack - I don't think I play well enough yet to be playing hands that tricky!

sitout

eoghan104 wrote:

I dont think the answer is to sit and wait for AA and KK though as all the pots are muliway and those hands dont hold up well. Plus it will be incredibly easy to read you.

agreed but nice hands like aaj10 , kkqj 2 suits or 991010 will still get raised and reraised in the macau, and i know id like jjqq better than 4567 os facing into a 250 euro pre flop raise . the crux of the arguement is discipline and patience. prue and simple. i unfortunatly dont have much of either!

sitout

CaptainNemo wrote:

- I don't think I play well enough yet to be playing hands that tricky!

no need to be tricky in the macau generally imo

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

no need to be tricky in the macau generally imo

Nothing like a crazed game of Omaha to tilt you without you even realizing you've been tilted :rolleyes:

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

agreed but nice hands like aaj10 , kkqj 2 suits or 991010 will still get raised and reraised in the macau, and i know id like jjqq better than 4567 os facing into a 250 euro pre flop raise . the crux of the arguement is discipline and patience. prue and simple. i unfortunatly dont have much of either!

There was a 4-way all-in preflop last night where 3 of the 4 players had 150-200BBs in front of them. The hands:

KKxx, single suited (that was me, I was shortstacked on the button)
AsJs7x3x
99xx (or something similar, I forget, a lower paired hand without much backup)
4578 single suited

The AsJs hand took it down with 2 pair (not even top 2).

This is just to illustrate how hard it might be to get your AA or KK hands heads-up at that table if those are the hands you're waiting for.

sitout

CaptainNemo wrote:

Nothing like a crazed game of Omaha to tilt you without you even realizing you've been tilted :rolleyes:

alan your one of the few players in that game who actually knows what they are doing in "that" game and id say you dont generally do to bad at it either.but hell i know what you mean i have often been rock solid for an hour or two and then out of nothing the game totally changes and its raise re raise rereraise ! its exciting and frightening .its poker!

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

alan your one of the few players in that game who actually knows what they are doing in "that" game and id say you dont generally do to bad at it either.but hell i know what you mean i have often been rock solid for an hour or two and then out of nothing the game totally changes and its raise re raise rereraise ! its exciting and frightening .its poker!

I'm very much still learning the game. I'd say I'm better than some of the players but very definitely worse than some, who already know who they are ;-)

kryogen

in general, in terms of starting hands, you should try to keep it very very tight in loose omaha cash games..... unless you are experienced enough to play very good post flop. you want to give yourself as little marginal decisions as possible...

alot of people seem to think omaha is about jamming alot of 60/40 situations, i disagree with this... you have to have more discipline then you do in holdem,especially for cash... and you need to be prepared to sit and wait and fold for a long time if you want to make serious cash...

people starting to play omaha now, these are the guys you will make your profit from, they have not learned the harsh reality that the 2nd nuts is very rarely good in omaha, and therefore they will not fold it....

i have been called down with hands ranging from the 2nd nuts to a guy thinking he had a flush when one spade hit the turn as he had 4 in his hand!!!!!:eek: :eek:

some of the players out there now, and in general in omaha, the standard of player is terrible at the moment. it will get better like everything, but for now there is a lot of money out there as long as you have patience and you can endure the swings, they are much greater than in holdem.

they will gamble, i think its the excitement factor of how many possible hands they can make or whatever it is, but people will gamble with yu far more readily and for this reason alone choosing your starting hands more carefully is vital... it does not matter what you have in their mind, if they think their hand looks pretty they will give you their money

RoundTower

lol this thread.

kryogen

RoundTower wrote:

lol this thread.

yet again quite constructive mr tower... ur getting fond of lolling threads arent you?

people ask for advice, not to be laughed at, with all due respect

DeadParrot

To be honest RT, I was hoping for some actual input from a poster like you in this thread

sitout

RoundTower wrote:

lol this thread.

is this thread beneath you?
are you that good that you find our innocent questionings annoying?
are you some one famous brunson perhaps in disguise?

RoundTower

I think it's funny that everyone is talking about beating a high-variance, gambling game, without actually doing any gambling. Sure like any game you can sit and wait for the nuts, but it's not going to make you a fortune.

sitout

RoundTower wrote:

Sure like any game you can sit and wait for the nuts, but it's not going to make you a fortune.

it might make you a profit though and some people are happy with little and often. besides its a discussion on how to play in a loose game its not a definitive article by any standards,but someone might find it helpful .

DeadParrot

Ah jaysus, here was me hoping for revelations

To be honest, I'm about 50/50 I would have the exact same as the OP.
I'll gladly call a raise in position with ds connectors as well.

kryogen

there is higher variance then holdem, but you can help yourself alot by choosing better starting hands.... you have to gamble in all forms of poker at some stage, i was not disputing that either, but people are more willing to play and pay you off more in omaha... simple.

i was trying to stress the point of discipline and and choosing better starting hands. i thought you would have at least got that point RT

Lafortezza

60/40s are your bread and butter in Omaha.
You very rarely get the situation like you do in hold'em where you get all-in on the flop with AA against JJ on a raggy board where you are a monster favourite to win.
In Omaha when 100BB stacks get in the middle post flop it's usually a set vs. a huge draw, or a 60/40. That's why the variance is so much bigger because if you lose several coinflips in a row that's 5 buy-ins gone.

If a game is playing very very loose then you should probably be playing looser than normal too, especially in late position. You should also be reraising alot more preflop since LAGs aren't getting premium hands every time they pump it preflop.

kryogen

lafortezza wrote:

If a game is playing very very loose then you should probably be playing looser than normal too, especially in late position. You should also be reraising alot more preflop since LAGs aren't getting premium hands every time they pump it preflop.

play the lotto anyone?

you cant reduce your game to mindless gambling just because the table is loose

Lafortezza

kryogen wrote:

play the lotto anyone?

you cant reduce your game to mindless gambling just because the table is loose

If you want to take advantage of a very loose and aggro table you do. Edit: well not mindless gambling but you need to pick your spots to gamble.
Do you think sitting there for an hour waiting on AAxx or 789Tds and getting half your tank in preflop is going to be profitable? For one if you get a couple of callers you will be dogged a large % of the time by the river. And secondly if you fold for an hour and then go crazy reraising preflop all of a sudden you won't get much action.

pokenum  -mc 500000  -o as 4s ac 6c  - kh qh jc 8d  - 5h 5d 7d 9c 
Omaha Hi: 500000 sampled boards
cards             win   %win    lose  %lose  tie  %tie     EV
As 4s  Ac  6c  214828  42.97  285077  57.02   95  0.02  0.430
Jc 8d  Kh  Qh  149981  30.00  350019  70.00    0  0.00  0.300
9c 7d  5d  5h  135096  27.02  364809  72.96   95  0.02  0.270