Are farmers big lazy lumps?

luckat

Someone recently referred, in conversation with me, to the kind of farmers who bring their produce to farmers' markets as 'hobby farmers', on the basis that most of them combine farming with other jobs.

But when I looked into it further I discovered that non-'hobby' farmers are subvented by gigantic grant systems making up - I can scarcely believe it! - 98% of their income, while just 2% comes from produce.

Why aren't Irish farmers producing organic meat, vegetables and eggs and selling them locally through shops and farmers' markets? Surely that could be very profitable, especially if they add value by making cheese and other products from their produce?

Are they just lazy, and standing there with their hand out for grants to produce slurry-covered fields and antibiotic-riddled meat?

maniac101

Probably best suited to Farming and Forestry forum as this is essentially about direct subventions and the REPS scheme.
The National Farm Survey was published a couple of weeks ago, (see Teagasc site here). It confirms your 98% figure. Average farm income is just €16k apparently. I think most farmers are 'hobby' farmers nowadays out of necessity rather than choice.

mikemac

Bit of a stereotype there OP. Maybe I could jump to assumptions about the kind of person that visits farmers markets and lives in D6.
Do you have much knowledge about running farms like why slurry is spread?

80% of meat products are exported and in a country where it seems that all we do is build houses and sell them to each other then billions in exports is one vital area of our economy.

I don't have loads of facts and figures on agriculture and the farming forum here is dead (maybe lack of broadband in rural areas) so most posters on boards will agree with you.

But that doesn't make you right.

edit:spelling

luckat

Certainly you could make assumptions about the kind of person who lives in D6 and visits farmers' markets: I like to buy fresh local food grown by people who aren't massive corporates, and who take care of their soil.

Educate me about slurry, please.

Wishbone Ash

luckat wrote:

Why aren't Irish farmers producing organic meat, vegetables and eggs and selling them locally through shops and farmers' markets? Surely that could be very profitable, especially if they add value by making cheese and other products from their produce?

Although farmer's markets appear to be popular they tend to be frequented by more affluent and discerning shoppers. I don't think that Irish society in general is prepared to pay organic prices. The average large 'working class' families are more concerned with the 'value' provided by large supermarkets.

Nowadays, to make a living in farming, requires everything to be intensified and done on a large scale as the margins are so tight. Relatively speaking, food is much cheaper now than it was 40 years ago. Years ago most farmers engaged in mixed farming. They would have milking cows, beef cattle, pigs, sheep, vegetables, cereals and the ubiquitous chickens running around the yard. It would be rare now to see eggs, cheese and vegetables produced in one farm.

The problem with hobby farming is that it is in effect a false type of farming as it is not really sustainable. For example, hobby farmers are not as dependent on good livestock prices as the full-time farmer and will be content with a lower price as they have their income from their normal employment. This tends to drag down prices overall.

In relation to grants, it is an unfortunate situation which has evolved over the years. Given the choice, I sure most farmers would prefer to be able to earn a decent living from their actual farming instead.

luckat

Surely if you took away all the grants, 'hobby' farming would be *more* sustainable than 'real' farming?

And if farmers sold in the farmers' markets, even one day a week, and sold what people want to buy, they'd make a good whack of income, because the grinding supermarkets wouldn't be pulling their prices down.

I've just been in my local supermarket, which was offering dried-up mangetout from Out Foreign. Now, my father used to grow mangetout, and we couldn't keep up with the crop - the more you cut, the more it cropped. Just one example.

Wishbone Ash

luckat wrote:

And if farmers sold in the farmers' markets, even one day a week, and sold what people want to buy, they'd make a good whack of income, because the grinding supermarkets wouldn't be pulling their prices down

A farmer supplying Tescos with 1,000 bags of spuds weekly is hardly going to make a living selling a paltry few bags at a farmers market.

A friend of mine was in the organic fruit and vegetable business but he couldn't make a living at it. The volume of sales was just not there. Even though you here many people talking about organic produce, few are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

luckat

It's like any new product: you have to develop the market. Of course it's not going to be there at first - and it's not going to be there at all if farmers won't supply it.

scitpo

Farmers are basically on the dole. They are given money to farm just to keep farming communities and the Irish countryside alive but if their 'business' were left to the global markets they would be earning 3 grand a year tops.

The_Conductor

Personally I think that the reason more farmers aren't actively trying to sell produce locally- is that its not demanded by the consumer. Essentially the average consumer wants to purchase a weekly shop in the one (or as few) locations as possible. Certainly the consumers want the highest possible quality produce- but also the lowest possible prices. This demand for quality and low prices has given massive bargaining power to the Supermarkets. Unfortunately selling produce to supermarkets is a marginal activity for all but the very largest of producers- for the most part the prices paid to farmers by the larger multiples do not cover their production costs. Its not lazy to not produce food and other outputs- when the market price for these products does not cover your production costs. Its common sense. For example- it costs 20c per pound to pick fresh strawberries and a further 32 cent in packaging and transport costs. Supermarkets will give me 50 cent a pound for the fresh fruit- despite the fact that they are selling them 2 boxes for 6 Euro to the consumer. Why should I continue in business? Its not laziness- its acute business sense.

Turnover from farmers markets, while far more than the pittance Tesco et al. are willing to pay farmers for fresh fruit, still doesn't make it a viable option for a farmer to survive from (unless he/she has some incredibly inventive way of adding value to the produce that consumers are very willing to pay for). It is good money selling a 4 stone bag of potatoes for 10 Euro at a farmers market (its double what I could get from a supermarket) but how many bags can I shift- is it worth my while to invest a day into staffing a stall? Probably not- but if it was combined with some sort of another off-farm activity- it could be a valuable way to increment the farm income.

It all comes down to ease of delivery of goods from the farm to the consumer at the most attractive price to the consumer while still making it worthwhile for the farmer. At present the middlemen, the large grocery retailers, have more or less killed the market. Even in the middle of the Irish growing season its still cheaper for them to import strawberries from Spain or raspberries from the US than it is to pay a local farmer just to cover his production costs.

Its not laziness- its economics. Perhaps circumstances will change- maybe the middlemen will stop being as greedy as they are? Milk is going to be interesting in about 2-3 years time, there are so many dairy farmers throwing in the towel. I blame the large grocery retailers for the state of the market for fresh produce.......

Wishbone Ash

A lot of consumers are unaware that a lot of the "special offers" in the fruit and veg in supermarkets are funded by the grower not the supermarket. So the next time you see "buy one turnip, get one free" remember that it is the farmer not the supermarket who funds this even though they instigate the offer.

luckat

The supermarkets certainly don't seem to listen to the consumer. I love Lullaby Milk by Ardrahan Dairies, and have various friends who have discovered it - just as it disappeared from the supermarkets.

And Tesco's insists on treating Ireland as some suburb of Manchester, not realising how foodie people are here; they don't supply to Ireland some of the stuff they have that's actually nice, and when you ask about it you're greeted with a sad sigh.

One farmer I thought took the sensible approach was the guy who makes that delicious north Dublin apple juice, Llewellyn's, isn't it? His apples weren't selling, so he researched the market and started juicing them instead.

Wishbone Ash

luckat wrote:

The supermarkets certainly don't seem to listen to the consumer. I love Lullaby Milk by Ardrahan Dairies, and have various friends who have discovered it - just as it disappeared from the supermarkets

Supermarkets like to give the impression that they are consumer orientated but they are profit orientated. They began a policy of reducing the range of products they sell several years ago and prefer to concentrate on the big shifters.

wrote:

One farmer I thought took the sensible approach was the guy who makes that delicious north Dublin apple juice, Llewellyn's, isn't it? His apples weren't selling, so he researched the market and started juicing them instead.

I know David although I haven't seen him for a few years.

(I'll send you a PM later as I'm heading out).

G-Man

I think the answer the title is between the lines above if You read how much the turnip farmer or the strawberry farmer is getting from supplying the market. The consumers and farmers alike are being conned by the big food prodcers,

"Omnivores Dilemma" is a great book that gives an overview of this problem of conventional agriculture to produce the food we want.

Its from an american perspective, but bascially we would not have stable food supplies at reasonable prices if it was not for some sort of subsidy system to even out the Yearly and seasonal prices. Secondly though the subsidy system appears to favour the farmers but actually
gives more benefit to the in between agents (supermarkets and food producers) than it does to the farmer in terms of good prices or indeed to the consumer in terms of good quality healthy tasty food. (Wake up people, who has gotten bigger and bigger and more profitable while the people at either end more dissatisfied with their end of the deal)

As I said the book is from an American food production perspective but in the 30 or so Years I have been involved in agriculture, its scary the parallels I see coming down the track with what goes in on in the US food system...(Non Dairy Creamer!).

There are several conclusions from the book You can take with regard to enviro, economics, land, meat eating, big organic industry.. But in the end the only one I took is buy local. If You buy local and buy local enough You will know the farmer or the shopkeeper will and therefore 1) know if the vegetables are truly organic (again if thats what You want), ii) the workers are paid fairly iii) the food is produced safely and iv) are the animals being treated humanely.

After reading the book, I lost faith in Organic with the capital O...Particularly the type You see in the supermarket, boosted my confidence faith in Eating Meat (GRASS FED only) from both an environmental and health point of view and lastly to always try and eat seasonally and locally.

moe_sizlak

id like to adress mainly the issue the cheque in the post to farmers which makes up most of a beef farmers income anyway , whatever about dairy farmers
yes , it is paid for my the tax payers of europe but it is because the cost of producing beef in ireland is greater than the return from selling it that this buffer is needed , it would be preferable for farmers if they simply got paid enough from the factories and didnt have to rely on the cheque in the post

this cheque in the post is a pr disaster for farmers with the wider community , it gives the impression that farmers get paid to do nothing

now i want to say something important that is almost always over looked when it comes to payments to farmers
there is a whole public service industry built around the payments to farmers
if the cheque in the post were to end in the morning , with it would go thousands of what as farmers know are cushy jobs in the public service
virtually non descript jobs in the department of agriculture , administritive roles which only in the public service would be classed as a job
you see in order for the farmer to recieve his cheque in the post , he must comply with a bunch of rules and regulations which would confuse a nuclear scientist , rules and regulations which if examined , one could only come to the conclusion that they were created in order to maximise the amount of public servants needed to implement them
i had last week what is commonly referred to in farming circles as a random inspection , this happens when a farmer is randomly selected for an inspection to see if the farmer is complying with the previosuly mentioned rules and regulations of the present payment system known as the single payment
i got a call 2 days in advance of such a visit , the man arrived and told me he needed to see whether or not the amount of land on my maps matched the actual area on the ground , now considering that the land registry in ireland has a record of every sq ft of ground in this country and theese maps were created more than likely over 50 yrs ago , one would think that the maps would have to be the same as the land on the ground ,
and of course it was the same but that didnt stop mr dept of agri officer from walking around my farm for 4 hrs making inane comments like sure that field over there is up here on the map
only in the public service would such a stroll around a farm be considered a job
that is just one example , let is be known that there are more than farmers relying on the cheque on the post , there is a massive public service industry built up around it , were the cheque in the post to vanish in the morning , it would be the public service unions who would be up in arms much more than the irish farmers association

The_Conductor

moe_sizlak - I take exception to what you're saying.
Yes- the single payment cheque is a PR disaster for farmers, however another way of looking at the picture, is that instead of producing unproductive products, the farmer is now freed to evaluate profitable opportunities, be they in traditional farming or alternative farm enterprises.

There is not a whole public service industry around getting an annual cheque out to farmers-its a fallacy to suggest that there are "thousands of cushy jobs in the public service" doing so. The jobs in the Department are also far from being non-descript. If you like you can get copies of Business Plans for the Department on a Division by Division basis, and then a break down of what individual people are doing, based on these business plans in the form of a role profile. These are in the public domain.

Far from the number of public servants being maximised- the implementation of a number of schemes, including the Single Farm Payment, has freed up large numbers of staff to work in other areas (for example the Garda Pulse System is now administered by former Department of Agriculture Staff in Castlebar). If you check the absolute number of staff in the Department of Agriculture- you will see that it has fallen by almost 40% since 2002. Far from there being vast numbers of jobs generated by the SFP- its being used as an opportunity to streamline the Department of Agriculture.

While I can imagine that you are annoyed about the inspector who walked boundaries for a couple of hours- if you feel that what he/she did was in any way inappropriate, you can make an official complaint which will be dealt with speedily.

As for the Department relying on the Single Payment- I don't really see how that can be the case. Its envisaged to phase it out from 2012 (at which stage its imagined that the farming community will have moved away from the production based subsidy mentality and actually be producing crops/produce for which there is a viable market). Why on earth should a farmer subsidise crops, by producing them for less than he/she can make for them at the factory gate? While I wholeheartedly agree that some prices are scandalous- such as the difference charged to consumers for fresh fruit and veg / milk / meat products versus prices given to farmers by factories or supermarkets- surely the sane thing to do is for farmers to investigate how to get better prices for their products (be it through farmers markets, marketing campaigns, name and shame schemes (for example how the hell can it be cheaper for Superquinn to stock O'Driscolls Strawberries from Utah than Elsanta from Wexford in the middle of the summer???))

Times have changed- unfortunately this means that traditional farming methods and techniques have to adapt to these changed circumstances. While I don't advocate taking the French approach and torching a few supermarkets as a protest- it does seem a bit extreme, surely farmers should use the breathing space granted by the SFP to actively focus on how to remain farmers in a sustainable way- rather than continuing to rely on an annual cheque in the post.

Unfortunately, Ireland is an open economy on the global scale- and we are simply incapable of competing with certain sectors, be they European or South American. Surely its time to retrench, evaluate where we have a competitive advantage, and make the most of the wonderful image that Ireland has as the Food Island in the rest of Europe?

Wishbone Ash

moe_sizlak wrote:

there is a whole public service industry built around the payments to farmers
if the cheque in the post were to end in the morning , with it would go thousands of what as farmers know are cushy jobs in the public service

No, that wouldn't happen. The staff would be re-deployed elsewhere if agreement was reached with the relevant trade unions.

If no agreement was reached we might have another 'Land Commission' scenario! :eek:

(The Land Commission was abolished in 1984 but there was disagreement about the re-deployment of staff. As a result, some staff arrived into work daily for many years but had absolutely nothing constructive to do. I'm not sure how it was eventually resolved).

moe_sizlak wrote:

now considering that the land registry in ireland has a record of every sq ft of ground in this country

It is not compulsary in every county to register changes in land ownership. AFAIK in 3 counties, it is not legally required.

SkepticOne

I think everyone will agree that unless farmers are providing some service to the state they should not be recieving a cheque through the post for running their businesses. Othewise it is just glorified dole.

Can someone outline what this service is?

moe_sizlak

smccarrick wrote:

moe_sizlak - I take exception to what you're saying.
Yes- the single payment cheque is a PR disaster for farmers, however another way of looking at the picture, is that instead of producing unproductive products, the farmer is now freed to evaluate profitable opportunities, be they in traditional farming or alternative farm enterprises.

There is not a whole public service industry around getting an annual cheque out to farmers-its a fallacy to suggest that there are "thousands of cushy jobs in the public service" doing so. The jobs in the Department are also far from being non-descript. If you like you can get copies of Business Plans for the Department on a Division by Division basis, and then a break down of what individual people are doing, based on these business plans in the form of a role profile. These are in the public domain.

Far from the number of public servants being maximised- the implementation of a number of schemes, including the Single Farm Payment, has freed up large numbers of staff to work in other areas (for example the Garda Pulse System is now administered by former Department of Agriculture Staff in Castlebar). If you check the absolute number of staff in the Department of Agriculture- you will see that it has fallen by almost 40% since 2002. Far from there being vast numbers of jobs generated by the SFP- its being used as an opportunity to streamline the Department of Agriculture.

While I can imagine that you are annoyed about the inspector who walked boundaries for a couple of hours- if you feel that what he/she did was in any way inappropriate, you can make an official complaint which will be dealt with speedily.

As for the Department relying on the Single Payment- I don't really see how that can be the case. Its envisaged to phase it out from 2012 (at which stage its imagined that the farming community will have moved away from the production based subsidy mentality and actually be producing crops/produce for which there is a viable market). Why on earth should a farmer subsidise crops, by producing them for less than he/she can make for them at the factory gate? While I wholeheartedly agree that some prices are scandalous- such as the difference charged to consumers for fresh fruit and veg / milk / meat products versus prices given to farmers by factories or supermarkets- surely the sane thing to do is for farmers to investigate how to get better prices for their products (be it through farmers markets, marketing campaigns, name and shame schemes (for example how the hell can it be cheaper for Superquinn to stock O'Driscolls Strawberries from Utah than Elsanta from Wexford in the middle of the summer???))

Times have changed- unfortunately this means that traditional farming methods and techniques have to adapt to these changed circumstances. While I don't advocate taking the French approach and torching a few supermarkets as a protest- it does seem a bit extreme, surely farmers should use the breathing space granted by the SFP to actively focus on how to remain farmers in a sustainable way- rather than continuing to rely on an annual cheque in the post.

Unfortunately, Ireland is an open economy on the global scale- and we are simply incapable of competing with certain sectors, be they European or South American. Surely its time to retrench, evaluate where we have a competitive advantage, and make the most of the wonderful image that Ireland has as the Food Island in the rest of Europe?

that someone would reply to me post so quickly is surprising considering the last post before mine was a month ago , what is more surprising and to me a little scary is that you obviously work in the public serivce or judging from your knowledge of how i can make a complaint to the dept of ag , work is the dept of ag
as such no matter what i say you are likely to disagree with me , public servants are a very self important bunch and are extremley hostile to criticisms when it comes to people questioning thier output
i always say its easy to tell the difference between going to someone who privides a service in the private sector or the public sector
when you go into a private business , the person behind the counter is nearly always appreciative of you and is keen to accomodate you
when you go into say the local authority or the dept of ag local office , the impression you get is that the person serving you is a selfless soul who is sacraficing her time for mother ireland and that you the customer should be honoured to be in there presence
oh and if i rang for example a car dealer today about a new toyota , if the salesman was not there , he would get back to me within an hour at most
if i rang the local authority and asked to speak to the local engineer about an issue to do with a road or something or if i rang the local dept of ag and asked to speak to one of the higher officers , i would not get to speak to them nor would i get a return call without having to ring back several times and even then there is no guarentee i would get that call back
the reason being the public servant is not relying on me for his or her paycheck like the salesman is in the toyota garage

oh and i and every other person who has a connection to farming in this country knows that there is an entire public service industry built around subsidies to farmers , as regards your insistance that there is not
BELIEVE IT IF YE LIKE
oh and as regards the public servants in the dept of ag working hard
there official day is from 9.30am to 4.30 pm with a lunch break from 12.30 to 2pm , however the phone doesnt answer if you ring them before 9.45 am , they take a tea break at 11am and usually dont arrive back till after 11.30 am
plus the usually waltz back in after thier one and a half hour official lunch break at about 2.15 pm
i know this for a fact so you neednt bother trying to contradict me
everyone knows there is no correlation between pay and productivity in the public service and how those in the public service are almost un sackable and how they earn on average 43% more than those in the private sector
so dont tell me with a straight face that they dont have a cushy number mr dept of ag officer

moe_sizlak

smccarrick wrote:

moe_sizlak - I take exception to what you're saying.
Yes- the single payment cheque is a PR disaster for farmers, however another way of looking at the picture, is that instead of producing unproductive products, the farmer is now freed to evaluate profitable opportunities, be they in traditional farming or alternative farm enterprises.

There is not a whole public service industry around getting an annual cheque out to farmers-its a fallacy to suggest that there are "thousands of cushy jobs in the public service" doing so. The jobs in the Department are also far from being non-descript. If you like you can get copies of Business Plans for the Department on a Division by Division basis, and then a break down of what individual people are doing, based on these business plans in the form of a role profile. These are in the public domain.

Far from the number of public servants being maximised- the implementation of a number of schemes, including the Single Farm Payment, has freed up large numbers of staff to work in other areas (for example the Garda Pulse System is now administered by former Department of Agriculture Staff in Castlebar). If you check the absolute number of staff in the Department of Agriculture- you will see that it has fallen by almost 40% since 2002. Far from there being vast numbers of jobs generated by the SFP- its being used as an opportunity to streamline the Department of Agriculture.

While I can imagine that you are annoyed about the inspector who walked boundaries for a couple of hours- if you feel that what he/she did was in any way inappropriate, you can make an official complaint which will be dealt with speedily.

As for the Department relying on the Single Payment- I don't really see how that can be the case. Its envisaged to phase it out from 2012 (at which stage its imagined that the farming community will have moved away from the production based subsidy mentality and actually be producing crops/produce for which there is a viable market). Why on earth should a farmer subsidise crops, by producing them for less than he/she can make for them at the factory gate? While I wholeheartedly agree that some prices are scandalous- such as the difference charged to consumers for fresh fruit and veg / milk / meat products versus prices given to farmers by factories or supermarkets- surely the sane thing to do is for farmers to investigate how to get better prices for their products (be it through farmers markets, marketing campaigns, name and shame schemes (for example how the hell can it be cheaper for Superquinn to stock O'Driscolls Strawberries from Utah than Elsanta from Wexford in the middle of the summer???))

Times have changed- unfortunately this means that traditional farming methods and techniques have to adapt to these changed circumstances. While I don't advocate taking the French approach and torching a few supermarkets as a protest- it does seem a bit extreme, surely farmers should use the breathing space granted by the SFP to actively focus on how to remain farmers in a sustainable way- rather than continuing to rely on an annual cheque in the post.

Unfortunately, Ireland is an open economy on the global scale- and we are simply incapable of competing with certain sectors, be they European or South American. Surely its time to retrench, evaluate where we have a competitive advantage, and make the most of the wonderful image that Ireland has as the Food Island in the rest of Europe?

that someone would reply to me post so quickly is surprising considering the last post before mine was a month ago , what is more surprising and to me and a little scary is that you obviously work in the public serivce or judging from your knowledge of how i can make a complaint to the dept of ag , work is the dept of ag, i beging to wonder is the state watching out for criticism of its bodys , i better watch what i say from now on it seems
as such no matter what i say you are likely to disagree with me , public servants are a very self important bunch and are extremley hostile to criticisms when it comes to people questioning thier output
i always say its easy to tell the difference between going to someone who privides a service in the private sector or the public sector
when you go into a private business , the person behind the counter is nearly always appreciative of you and is keen to accomodate you
when you go into say the local authority or the dept of ag local office , the impression you get is that the person serving you is a selfless soul who is sacraficing her time for mother ireland and that you the customer should be honoured to be in there presence
oh and if i rang for example a car dealer today about a new toyota , if the salesman was not there , he would get back to me within an hour at most
if i rang the local authority and asked to speak to the local engineer about an issue to do with a road or something or if i rang the local dept of ag and asked to speak to one of the higher officers , i would not get to speak to them nor would i get a return call without having to ring back several times and even then there is no guarentee i would get that call back
the reason being the public servant is not relying on me for his or her paycheck like the salesman is in the toyota garage

oh and i and every other person who has a connection to farming in this country knows that there is an entire public service industry built around subsidies to farmers , as regards your insistance that there is not
BELIEVE IT IF YE LIKE
oh and as regards the public servants in the dept of ag working hard
there official day is from 9.30am to 4.30 pm with a lunch break from 12.30 to 2pm , however the phone doesnt answer if you ring them before 9.45 am , they take a tea break at 11am and usually dont arrive back till after 11.30 am
plus the usually waltz back in after thier one and a half hour official lunch break at about 2.15 pm
i know this for a fact so you neednt bother trying to contradict me
everyone knows there is no correlation between pay and productivity in the public service and how those in the public service are almost un sackable and how they earn on average 43% more than those in the private sector
so dont tell me with a straight face that they dont have a cushy number mr dept of ag officer

Wishbone Ash

moe_sizlak wrote:

judging from your knowledge of how i can make a complaint to the dept of ag

One doesn't have to work in a Government Department/Public Service to know how to make a complaint! Did you ever hear of "Customer/Service User Charters"?

public servants are a very self important bunch and are extremley hostile to criticisms when it comes to people questioning thier output

I can think of another group which are quite hostile to criticism at times!

As regards being 'hostile', I think you should re-read your posts.

oh and if i rang for example a car dealer today about a new toyota , if the salesman was not there , he would get back to me within an hour at most

Of course he would - he's thinking of his commission - not you.

oh and i and every other person who has a connection to farming in this country knows that there is an entire public service industry built around subsidies to farmers

That's a bit like saying that "The Department of Health is full of public servants dealing with Medical Cards"! :rolleyes:

there official day is from 9.30am to 4.30 pm with a lunch break from 12.30 to 2pm , however the phone doesnt answer if you ring them before 9.45 am , they take a tea break at 11am and usually dont arrive back till after 11.30 am
plus the usually waltz back in after thier one and a half hour official lunch break at about 2.15 pm

There is a big difference between the times an office is open to the public and the hours that staff work.

You seem to know an awful lot about the workings of the department of Agriculture.

i know this for a fact

I think you are embarassing the other farmers out there. If you have that sort of attitude when you visit/telephone any Government Department, I'm not suprised you get an unsatisfactory service.

you neednt bother trying to contradict me

Why bother coming onto a public forum if you have all the answers?

PS - I have absolutely no connection with the Department of Agriculture but I have a long connection with farming. Dublin isn't just a city!

moe_sizlak

Wishbone Ash wrote:

One doesn't have to work in a Government Department/Public Service to know how to make a complaint! Did you ever hear of "Customer/Service User Charters"?

I can think of another group which are quite hostile to criticism at times!

As regards being 'hostile', I think you should re-read your posts.

Of course he would - he's thinking of his commission - not you.

That's a bit like saying that "The Department of Health is full of public servants dealing with Medical Cards"! :rolleyes:

There is a big difference between the times an office is open to the public and the hours that staff work.

You seem to know an awful lot about the workings of the department of Agriculture.

I think you are embarassing the other farmers out there. If you have that sort of attitude when you visit/telephone any Government Department, I'm not suprised you get an unsatisfactory service.

Why bother coming onto a public forum if you have all the answers?

PS - I have absolutely no connection with the Department of Agriculture but I have a long connection with farming. Dublin isn't just a city!

you mean your a farmer , well i never , ask any farmer in this country and you will not find one who has a good word to say about the over staffed under worked and over paid department of agriculture

Wishbone Ash

moe_sizlak wrote:

you will not find one who has a good word to say about the over staffed under worked and over paid department of agriculture

Half of the staff working in the Public Service are sons and daughters of farmers!

moe_sizlak

this is ireland , half of the sons and daughters in the country are the children of farmers

Seloth

Not anymore.

Also whats this about most of beef farmers income comming from Grants.While I may not be a farmer((My father is)) the money he gets for grants goes into the farm.His income in generated by the cattle.Grants only help do up the farm or help with bills.


I also read some one say they get nearly everything paid for them in grants.Well in my dads he ad to put in a new tanks which would basccialy scrape the **** in.It cost him 30k to put in and the goverment paid for the other 10k.

What companies should do is pay a little extra for meat they are buying.If they do then the farmers themselfs will like the company and in return will buy their product more and more often.

The_Conductor

The argument is that the Single Farm Payment is *not* a production aid, and should not be viewed as such by farmers. It is a transitional aid, designed to move farmers away from the subsidy based mentality- towards the production of goods which farmers can 1) make a profit from and 2) have a viable market for.

If you cannot make a profit from beef production- you are effectively subsidising the factories by using your SFP to continue to produce beef when you cannot make a profit from it. If you are insisting on continuing to produce beef- you need to figure how to develope the market in a manner that it is able to support a profitable return for you. We are hamstrung in this regard- particularly with Argentinian beef available on the international market for a pittance. We already are developing "Irish" campaigns, and trying to shame restraunts into serving Irish produce- but a lot more has to be done in this area. The average consumer only really looks at the price of the product- perhaps more could be done to educate them into caring more about its origins? Once demand for Irish beef gets more into equilibrium with supply- prices should improve at the factory gate? Perhaps focusing on developing our value-added industries- which in turn would feed-through to higher demand from the factories, might be of assistance in this area.

If people really think that the SFP is the new subsidy for beef production- then there is a whole lot of trouble stored up for a couple of years time when the SFP starts to be phased out.......

Seloth

Thats why we should subsides some countires beef imports into Ireland.Namly Brazil.

Wishbone Ash

Seloth wrote:

Thats why we should subsides some countires beef imports into Ireland.Namly Brazil.

I presume you mean tax/penalise imports of beef.

Seloth

Just plain stop it...but yeah,a tax increase would seem less vulgar.

jmayo

There is a whole lot of trouble coming down the tracks for European farmers and not just Irish ones.
The only saving grace may be the cost of oil may make transporting farm produce half way around the world too expensive.
Of course the flip side of this is that it will drive up costs of producing in Europe and Ireland as well.

I also just love it when people come on the media or forums etc and say farmers should seek to divest into other not standard farm activities.
Yes, that can help some farmers, but how many mushroom growers, rabbit breeders, deer farmers, ostrich farmers or farm B&Bs can the country support?
Organic farming also only works for a small precentage, because the general public just want cheap produce and they do not want to have to pay extra, no matter how organic the produce.

Alternative farm enterprises can work for a few farms, but it will not or can not work for most farms in the country. Otherwise you end up with a flood of some new product and prices drop like a lead balloon.

Also the cr** that ginger tosser David McWilliams came out with the other night only adds to the mythology that farmers and their families have become super rich out of the property boom.
Yes, some farmers have been pretty damm lucky and have been able to con some eejits into paying extravagant fees for little plots of building land, but for most the last 5 years has seen the family farm been run part time by a family member that now works at some other job 9 to 5.

I know some people say that the sooner that all forms of subsidising farms stops the better but the time may come when the Irish famring community is made up of fewer and fewer farms i.e. farming families.
What will the small towns and villages then survive on, what will the fabric of the country look like ?

Ah sure we will still be building houses I suppose :rolleyes:

SkepticOne

jmayo wrote:

Ah sure we will still be building houses I suppose :rolleyes:

Nobody owes you a living.

eddiej

Hi all,

Just to set out the stall work in ag full time for public sec, have 3rd level qual in ag and plenty of pract exp, turned down job in dept and have plenty of friends working there.

In response to OP the 98% of income from SFP is entirely true but you miss the point that farmers are loosing money on the produce they produce. The average winter finisher lost €100 to €150 per animal finished last year. The projected beef price is 2.98/kg to 3.08/kg for winter 07/08 you would need 3.40/kg just to break even on buying price and then you loose €150 in feeding housing costs. That is why farmers only make 2% of income from produce.

Many say then get out and that is what farmers are doing sheep numbers down dramatically beef numbers to follow. That raises issue of food miles and food safety and security. You must remember that CAP comes from post WWII when food was scarce. The idea of food being cheap however goes back way longer there was a tax levy system in the late 1700's in England (cant remember exact name right now) and it has run from there. It is basic economics more you earn less percenatge of diposal income spent on food food becomes less important and expect to be cheap. Eventually farmers will drop/die out and then few farmers large scale they will have power to dictate price to supermarkets and then big give out by general public. Question is how many farmers will be able to last.

On the issue of slurry - slurrry is re-cycled animal manures and results in less artifical fertiliser (oil derivative) being used. The value of slurry has been highlighted by Nitrates directive and the spreading of slurry in a managed fashion on land is an excellent organic fertiliser that benefits soil (organic matter) lowers costs and help environment.

Eddie

SkepticOne

eddiej wrote:

In response to OP the 98% of income from SFP is entirely true but you miss the point that farmers are loosing money on the produce they produce. The average winter finisher lost €100 to €150 per animal finished last year. The projected beef price is 2.98/kg to 3.08/kg for winter 07/08 you would need 3.40/kg just to break even on buying price and then you loose €150 in feeding housing costs. That is why farmers only make 2% of income from produce.

That is a shocking statistic, but it is important to remember that subsidies themselves affect prices. They lower the floor to which farmers can be negotiated since the farmer is getting most of his money from the tax payer.

The idea of food being cheap however goes back way longer there was a tax levy system in the late 1700's in England (cant repmember exact name right now) and it has run from there.

Subsidies don't make food cheap, they merely split the cost between the that paid over the counter and that paid in taxes. When you say the price of beef is 2.98/kg, the real price (i.e. the drain on other sectors of society) is actually 50 times that assuming that 98% of their income is from grants.

The question is whether subsidising farmers is the best way to spend that money. In the past we could get away with it but in the modern globalised competitive world, is that still the case? Would we be better off importing more food from cheaper countries and keeping money otherwise used in subsidy for more economically productive uses.

eddiej

Skepticone,

Farmers cant negotiate price when an animal is finished and ready for slaughter it is ready for slaughter you can say hang on there a few more weeks daisy till I send off, the animal has to go and that is that. The factories know this beef production is very seasonal in Ireland majority of animals born late Feb to Late April. You may say various different factories so shop around but price is very similar. Has been said to be a cartel this was investigated and found not may just be down to small market selling into for factories.

Subsidies do make cheap food on a percentage of dispoable income basis and that along with food security was their basis. More you earn more tax you pay can be redistributed to lower cost of basic foodstuffs for lower income earners. Agree with you totally on the spliting of cost but is that not what all income redistrinbution does i.e. social welfare payments.

The issue of importing cheaper foodstuffs is a level playing field on production standards traceability and use of pharmacuetical products. Lots of peole will declare the wonders of organic but truth be known the majority of beef in Ireland is as close to organic as you will get as hormones not allowed, drugs used v sparingly as more economic sense to shhot animal than treat

Eddie

SkepticOne

eddiej wrote: »

Skepticone,

Farmers cant negotiate price when an animal is finished and ready for slaughter it is ready for slaughter you can say hang on there a few more weeks daisy till I send off, the animal has to go and that is that. The factories know this beef production is very seasonal in Ireland majority of animals born late Feb to Late April. You may say various different factories so shop around but price is very similar. Has been said to be a cartel this was investigated and found not may just be down to small market selling into for factories.

The reason subsidies cause low prices is that they allow otherwise unprofitable farms to exist thus adding to the glut, undermining farmers' position and forcing down prices. Without subsides less beef would be produced and what beef would be produced would be sold at a higher price. Simple economics. You can't use low prices to justify subsides because these subsidies themselves are a contributing factor to these low prices in the first place.

Subsidies do make cheap food on a percentage of dispoable income basis and that along with food security was their basis. More you earn more tax you pay can be redistributed to lower cost of basic foodstuffs for lower income earners. Agree with you totally on the spliting of cost but is that not what all income redistrinbution does i.e. social welfare payments.

I would question whether there is a great social need these days to subsidise beef production. If all subsidies were to be discontinued, it is true that beef production would go decline in Ireland but we could substitute foreign imports of equal of higher quality thus keeping the price down.

Food security: do we really need 98% subsidies to keep beef production of some sort in this country. New Zealand has no subsidies yet still produces beef and other agricultural products. If anything, their larger scale more efficient production makes them more secure.

The issue of importing cheaper foodstuffs is a level playing field on production standards traceability and use of pharmacuetical products. Lots of peole will declare the wonders of organic but truth be known the majority of beef in Ireland is as close to organic as you will get as hormones not allowed, drugs used v sparingly as more economic sense to shhot animal than treat

We can test for hormones in imported meat. We can insist on standards of imported meat. I think the issue of food standards has been overstated in the debate about subsidies. Some countries like the US have heavy subsidies but also pump their cattle with hormones. Yet it is also possible to import beef from say Argentina that is free from hormones and grown organically.

eddiej

SO,

Could not agree more about subsidies causing creating a living for unprofitable farmers hence with the decoupling of premia the farmer can now see much more clearly that they are loosing money on production. My point was not that subsidies are lowering food prices as now subsidies are decoupled but farmers still cannot negotiate with large meat factories as I said the cattle must be killed when they are fit for slaughter and the farmer has little option but to do so. Maybe if the farmer was very large and threatened to bring all his stock elsewher he/she may have a chance. However given a daily kill in larger plants of 600-700 cattle a farmer would want to be finishing probably in the region of 10000 cattle a year to really be able to dictate price rises. We do not have this scale in Ireland and obviously farming at this scale does have problems e.g animal health etc as animal nos go up they become just that nos.

Food security is right back on the agenda grain supplies worldwide are now down to lest than 8 weeks people forget very quickly the turmoil that once existed in fluctuating food prices. I agree that CAP was a victim of its own sucess but in theory some sort of product price stabilisation IMO is a good idea and is a wise investment of public money. ALso EU is a net beef importer

Re food safety I do not know if you have experience in producing any foodstuffs in Ireland maybe you do and if so you will be more than well aware of the plethera of checks and balances many rightly so that exist they range from traceability animal movement drug and welfare registers to licencing of vehicles to transport animals remember we still have not fully got seatbelts on all our scholl buses here. The facts re EU v USA is that we do not use hormones not allowed so do not see how that is a comparison. Have you been to Argentina or Brazil borders become quite murky when comes to animal movements and seen their "standards" the IFA had a report recently worth reading you may say they are a vested interest but EU commission is sending a team (they are based in Meath, J Bruton got them here during our last EU presidency) and P Wall food safety has already admitted that they will most likely vindicate the IFA findings so would really have to question standards out there. Also what about the food miles or is that no longer an issue I think acheap food policy is still really close to peoples hearts but it is so engrained in our physce that we dont even know it.

Anyway thats my tuppence for all its worth

Eddie

moe_sizlak

would just like to reiterate my earlier commentt that were the single payment or cheque in the post to be done away with in the morning and instead the meat factories decided to pay the beef producers a decent price , the people who would be up in arms are the public servants at the dept of ag
then again knowing this country , they would just move them to the dept of health and make that an even bigger mess than it already is
a mess that is caused by having too many pen pushers , mass cull of pen pushers is all that is needed to sort out the health service , its the countrys best kept secret

Rovi

moe_sizlak wrote: »

...mass cull of pen pushers is all that is needed to sort out the health service , its the countrys best kept secret

I can picture the scene outside Hawkins House now:


:D:D

trad mad

I am absoulty madned by sum of the comments posted here. As a small farmers i am challanged every day of the week, to pay bills and to amke ends meet. This is not my fault, I am producing wot the consumer wants- top quailty board bia assured beef. In order to produce Board Bia Quailtu Assured Beef i have double the paper work and i am exposing myself to at least 2 inspections per year. I then sell my beef to a factory and recieve the same price as non-quailty assured beef and wot can i do about this---- Squt all!! The problem in Ireland lies with the consumer and the goverment. Firstly the amount of beef being imported into this country is unbelivable while we export 80% of our own beef produce. Full carcess beef is imported, taken to a factory in the southeast( may people know whos factory it is, he was on the rich list on telly) chopped up and sold to large supermarket chains and sold as a product of Ireland. The stupid consumer then buys this beliving it has been reared in Ireland, while realy they should be buying beef labled as produced, or reared in ireland.
The problem with the goverment and the eu is that they do not want any argi production in Ireland and will do there up most to kill it. In a recent irish farmers jounral artical, an EU commisionior say " if beef prices increase much more we will simply just increase imports"
I have to go now but i will be back

The_Conductor

Surely what should happen is a campaign to educate consumers then? With the new government policies on organic produce and the splashy campaigns by Bord Bia- it wouldn't take an awful lot to add another campaign to educate people into what the packaging on their groceries really means?

jmayo

smccarrick wrote: »

Surely what should happen is a campaign to educate consumers then? With the new government policies on organic produce and the splashy campaigns by Bord Bia- it wouldn't take an awful lot to add another campaign to educate people into what the packaging on their groceries really means?

Yes, but then that might hurt the sales of imported "Irish" beef and the profits of one of the "friends" of the major government party.
The stuff that the middle men in Irish agriculture have gotten away with over the years is a joke.
Sure some of them have gotten the Irish and European tax payers to pay them for exporting/importing rotten beef, whilst others have gotten seats in the Seanad or the Dail. I knwo the voters voted them in which is even worse still.

I suppose they are still selling Siucra Eireann, of course now made from Brazillian sugar cane maybe :rolleyes:

kmick

Agriculture in Ireland is a bit of a minefield and to be honest farmers need to figure out some solutions for themselves. I know a lot of farmers and they they work very hard. 7 o'oclock start and 9 o'clock finish in the summer is average (a little less in the winter) so there is no question abotu laziness in my mind.

However there are a couple of questions
1) If 80% of Irish beef is exported then why are we complaining about imported beef. I can see the point that Brazilian beef is not up to the same standard but even if it were, the economies of scale they have (e.g. 10,000 head of cattle) make it impossible for us to compete with them EVER on an open market.

2) Subsidies have been a disaster. Look at New Zealend/Australia where subsideies were abandoned. Again economies of scale there are different but they are able to compete world wide.

3) Why is farming any different to production of say plastic widgets. If someone elsewhere can produce a plastic widget at 20% of the cost then me then I will ultimately fail to ever sell any widgets.

Again let me say i am not against farmers and I would love to think all my meat came from the green fileds of Mitchelstown but I think farmers or their representatives have to come up with a plan. No one is going to hand it to you on a plate. Cmon Irish farmers.

Wishbone Ash

kmick wrote: »

If 80% of Irish beef is exported then why are we complaining about imported beef

The problem is when imported beef is being marketed as 'Irish'. Although restaurants are legally obliged to indicate the country of origin of their beef, many don't and staff still appear confused and flustered when a customer asks.

SkepticOne

trad mad wrote: »

The problem in Ireland lies with the consumer and the goverment. Firstly the amount of beef being imported into this country is unbelivable while we export 80% of our own beef produce.

But farmers are utterly dependent on the custom of the consumer and subsidies from [net] tax payers via the government. How many would have viable business if not for the generosity of these groups?

djmc

How many of these groups would starve if farmers did not produce food and sell it at break even or loss making prices.
Grants are just like giving us money while robbing our pockets while the middleman makes millions farmers has to comply with hundeds of rules and montains of paperwork inspections having money taken off us if an animal looses a tag a fence falls down or the wrong type of weed is growing on our farm and we have to pay for these peoples jobs through levies every time we sell something.
So keep your Grants inspections red tape and bulls**t and pay farmers a fair price for what they produce instead of the factories and supermarkets
Say 50% of what it sells for on the supermarket shelf

The_Conductor

Out of curiousity- has the price paid to farmers for milk increased markedly recently? Its now not unusual to pay up to 1.30 a litre or 2.40 for 2 litres of milk in a local grocers (even the Supermarket own brand milk is 2 Euro for a 2 litre container).

Has any of this massive price hike fed down to the producer- or is it being syphoned off elsewhere?

S.

djmc

yes milk price has gone up this year for the first time in over ten years
It is now making 35 cent a litre for the farmer which is the higest price ever paid.
I know of a farmer who once pasturised his own milk bottled it and tried to sell it in town.
He was quickly approched by the local garda and told he did not have a licance to sell milk and to go home or go to court.

The_Conductor

Just did a bit of searching in the statute book- I got this: S.I. No. 136/1955 — Milk and Dairies (Special Designations) (Amendment) Regulations, 1955.

The farmer could simply have followed the limitations of the act and applied for a licence- can't see why he wouldn't have gotten a licence.

35 cent a litre is a bit scandalous when its retailing for up to 4 times this amount.

They have to import fresh milk from Eastern Europe (mostly Poland and the Ukraine) in the UK now- as the low prices have driven so many dairy farmers out of production. I can see the same thing happening here.

Personally I think the purchasing power of the supermarkets and the larger dairy processors is to blame for the low prices in this case- it is a bit scandalous that the end consumer gets whacked with a 400% markup.......

moe_sizlak

the whole issue of imported brazilian beef is a hot topic among farmers right now , it is true that the cost of producing beef for farmers is greater than what they get from the meat factories and as a result they rely on subsidies for there income , as ive said in the past , most farmers would perfer there were no subsidies at all and they just recieved a decent price , this of course will never happen as there are too many public service jobs in the dept of agriculture who rely on the implementation of the so called cheque in the post , were the cheque to end in the morning , its the public service unions who would be most up in arms , not the ifa

on to the brazilian beef and farmers claims that it is not safe and does not have to comply with the same degree of tracability that irish beef does , i do not agree fully with them on this one , while brazilian beef does not have the same degree of tracability that irish beef does , you have to remember that tracability is another word for beauracracy , just because brazil doesnt employ thousands of public servants to make up silly rules of how to regulate the beef industry with rules like you must write down what day your cow had a sore foot and you injected her with penicilin doesnt mean that brazilian beef is dangerous , i have never heard of anyone yet dieing from having eaten beef from south america , ive been to south america and the beef there is delicious , were beef from south america to be a real threat there is no way that bertie aherne let alone the minister of ag , allow it it come into the country for if someone were to be poisioned , the fall out would be huge for the goverment

as i said earlier , tracability is just another word for beauracracy , tracability in this country is just an excuse to give some molly or mikey a cushy number in the dept of ag

The_Conductor

Moe_silak - I have to disagree with you.
Traceability is the ability for the consumer to know exactly where and how his or her food was brought up. It would make far more sense to attack the lack of traceability in some imported produce, than to attack the system that makes Irish meat and dairy products so marketable abroad.

The reason that the price of Irish beef is so low at the factory gate, is because we cannot produce beef competitively when you consider the massive enterprises with thousands of heads in South America. The reason that Brazillian beef is sold here at all- is Ireland subscribes to trade rules of the WTO- which means we cannot turn the beef away. Unfortunately- as other industries, such as our clothing industry has discovered- other countries are able to undercut us through either economies of scale, or minimal overheads- whereas Ireland is a very very expensive country in which to live and work in. The future of beef production most probably lies in educating the consumer about the high quality Irish product- and then instead of sending carcases abroad, the value added activities, be they making television dinners or whatever, should be encouraged here- so that there is a viable longterm industry the whole way through- one insulated from the vagaries of the wholesale price of Brazillian beef.

Personally- I don't subscribe to the idea that Brazillian beef is inherently less good for you than Irish or beef from elsewhere- but I do subscribe to idea that knowing my meat came from animals who spent most of their lives outdoors chomping green grass, and knowing that its not adulterated by antibiotics or artificial growth hormones, some of which may be cancer causing, is the type of product that I am far more likely to buy in the supermarket as an informed consumer. A lot of the fuss over Brazillian beef at the moment- and my own personal reasons for not choosing it out of choice, are actually as a result of information the IFA put out. Another concern that I as a consumer have- is the vast areas of the Amazon basin in Brasil that have been torched to make way for grazing land for cattle. So- not only might my beef be medicated with god knows what- its actively destroying the rain forest and contributing to global warming too. I see that farmers in Brazil torched the offices of the environment agency when their right to burn down the rainforest was questioned in 2005.

Re: the number of jobs in the Department of Agriculture that rely on the implementation of the cheque in the post- there are probably less than 20 people actually involved in the payment of the cheque. Any rules or regulations that the Department implements or are forced to accede to, are largely as a result of EU regulations- not Irish whims at all. Certainly we could leave the EU- but the reprecussions of having less regulations just so that there are fewer checks carried out and less forms to fill- would be akin to going back to the trade war we had with the UK in the 30s.

Re: subsidies- and farmers preference for a decent price for their produce rather than the very bad press of accepting the Single Farm Payment- surely the idea of the SFP is that it frees you from production based subsidies, you have a guaranteed cheque into your hand, regardless of what you produce. In this case- why would you or anyone else willingly subsidise factories by selling them beef at less than production cost? Why not change to produce something that there is a viable profitable market for? With the new government policy on organic production- and the massive amounts that consumers seem willing to pay for these products- surely its something worth investigating?

You really have a chip on your shoulder about the Department of Agriculture- I accept that you're not happy with some of your dealings, now lets leave it at that and consider the topic closed.

S.

Wishbone Ash

smccarrick wrote: »

Out of curiousity- has the price paid to farmers for milk increased markedly recently?

Yup, the best price for years!