2 tournament questions(low content)

gosplan

Low level donkaments. Poor standard, people calling draws too often, any ace is practically the nuts etc. Both hands in first round(10/20), starting stacks of 1500 still more or less intact.

Hand 1:

On BB, get KsQs

About 6 people call for 20.

Whats my move here?

I made it 250 to play and got two callers behind me.

Flop KhQh9h

I?????


Hand 2:

In SB I get 99. Again the customary 5 or 6 callers.

Should I just see a flop and hope for a 9?

I raised to 250, GOT 4 CALLERS. So four poeple flat call the blind and then see a raise for 1/6 of their stack! How I hate them.

The button then pushes.

I??

ozpoker

gosplan wrote:

I??

... stop making huge raises with no folding equity.

-Oz-

Iago

Hand 1

Call don't raise, evaluate on flop. As it stands that's a disaster of a flop for you and you're committed if you bet.

Hand 2

Just call and evaluate on the flop.

As played I think I probably fold to the buttons raise. At best you're probably on the right side of a 50/50 but you're often way behind here.

In general at this early stage in tournaments you should be seeing cheap flops and not raising 1/6 of your stack to win 1/15th of your stack

mrflash

hand 1

you could have raised to 120 and it would have the same result. no need to go overboard with that hand, its not that strong. flop is not good, you cant put all your chips in with it.

hand 2

early stages, if you watch in every mtt you play, these are the hands that you will see a lot of people go out on, its only a calling hand, its no good unless you hit a set or str8 where a 9 is needed. again why the big raise. i wouldnt raise with it but maybe with two late positions callers, you could raise but why so much, its madness.

six times the big blind is a standard strong raise in early stages of tourneys, you will not get too many caller with that type of raise. and if they will call 120, they are going to call 250 almost every time. you have to realise that guys will slow play big hands at this stage so unless you have a monster you dont raise. its too early to start trying to steal pots and its worthless trying to steal 80 or so when there is a chance you are behind and could lose twice or three times that amount.

DEmeant0r

The raise is just a little over standard raise if 5-7 people limped, 4 BBs + 1BB/Limper, but eh I wouldn't raise there unless I had AK, 1010+ in these situations.

gosplan

I was raising from 20 to 250, that's true. In each pot there was 130-150 though.

Maybe calling is correct, but my feeling with raising(even if I had aces here) is that it would have to be a decent amount - circa 200-250?

DEmeant0r

Yeah, as I said, raise is just above standard if that many people limped in.

Also in hand 2 have you ever thought that maybe Button is squeezing? I don't think if button here had a premium hand here he would just limp. Any read on button?

valor

shove 1 call 2

ozpoker

DEmeant0r wrote:

The raise is just a little over standard raise if 5-7 people limped, 4 BBs + 1BB/Limper, but eh I wouldn't raise there unless I had AK, 1010+ in these situations.

The "raise 4 (or 3) BB + 1 BB/limper" "rule" isn't a commandant from god. You need to ask yourself what exactly you are trying to accomplish with your raise and then design a bet value to attempt to accomplish it. For better or worse, these players aren't going away for a huge raise, so all you really accomplish is to bloat the pot with a marginal hand in both cases.

Ideally, in both cases, you'd like to take the pot down preflop, since both KQ and 99 don't play particularly well postflop. But since this gaggle of gambelers is willing to put in 10BBs after limping with whatever 2 cards they're playing, raising any amount is ill advised. Keep the pot small and play well post flop.

-Oz-

DEmeant0r

ozpoker wrote:

The "raise 4 (or 3) BB + 1 BB/limper" "rule" isn't a commandant from god. You need to ask yourself what exactly you are trying to accomplish with your raise and then design a bet value to attempt to accomplish it. For better or worse, these players aren't going away for a huge raise, so all you really accomplish is to bloat the pot with a marginal hand in both cases.

Ideally, in both cases, you'd like to take the pot down preflop, since both KQ and 99 don't play particularly well postflop. But since this gaggle of gambelers is willing to put in 10BBs after limping with whatever 2 cards they're playing, raising any amount is ill advised. Keep the pot small and play well post flop.

-Oz-

Never said it is the be all and end all, it's just a helpful guideline for a making a good raise. And yeah, limping was the right option in both cases, especially in hand 2, these donks have already shown they're happy to put call 1/6th of their stack with whatever they're holding.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

gosplan

ozpoker wrote:

since this gaggle of gambelers is willing to put in 10BBs after limping with whatever 2 cards they're playing, raising any amount is ill advised. Keep the pot small and play well post flop.

-Oz-

This is exactly what I was trying to determine by posting these hand here.

Being ahead to a bunch of idiots who are going to call is actually being behind.

Raising loses so much of it's effectivness.

Regardless.

Hand 1: I shipped and was called by Ah3x.

Hand 2: I called figuring it was heads up, then 3 OTHER PLAYERS called. One with J5 who flopped 2 pair. The button had AQo.


The standard was that bad. I'm playing these levels as my poker history has been one of days or weeks of glory...followed by an eventual return to the credit card. I don't thinnk I'm a bad player, I just don't pay attention to game selection and br management. Now I'm gonna start at the bottom and in an organised structured way become a winning player.

Iago

LuckyLloyd wrote:

:eek:

This makes my brain hurt. It's a ****ing great flop for us!! We just hit top two pair and can now over bet open - shove confident that we are getting called by a lone heart. And all of this after we made a crap pre - flop raise that left us OOP with a bad hand and a ton of money in the pot.

which is precisely why it's a disaster of a flop for us.

We made a really bad raise preflop OOP with a bad hand, we're called in two places, we've no idea what our opponent's are holding and now we're not going to be able to get away from the hand. All this at a point where we're starting with 75 bbs preflop. My main bone of contention is the fact that we shouldn't be in this position in the first place.

My point on the flop is that we have no idea what our opponents are holding and short of them turning over their cards for us we are getting our stack in blind at a stage where we shouldn't need to be. We will get our stack in here against JJ:99 and JT and Axh and AhJx and AhTx and sometimes both players will have one of these hands.

We'll get outdrawn sometimes and that's life, but I don't like getting a 75bb stack in the middle on a flop with no idea of whether I'm good or not regardless of being outdrawn.

Just because there's no decision doesn't mean it's a good flop, I don't disagree that we have to push, but that doesn't mean I like it.

valor

lol @ that being a disaster of a flop

RoundTower

first one bet and get it all in, second one call though a weirdly played better hand is possible. I don't think you played either hand badly, you could have limped either hand as well.

ocallagh

I shove hand 1 and definitely call hand 2.

hand 2 is a tricky one. I think at that stage (10/20) and against those players I prefer to just limp along. If the blinds were bigger I shove. 99 out of position is very vulnerable against thoe type of players whose preflop calling range includes every combo of overcards (JQ/KQ/AT etc).

hand 2 I might even make it 60 if we all had stacks of over 1500 and only continue with a 9 on flop.

I quite like your bet sizing.

Iago

valor wrote:

lol @ that being a disaster of a flop

so disaster is a strong word.

fact is that we're not too happy sitting there with KsQs all-in if either player turns over 99 or JT or Axh and we're not even that comfortable if they have or Ah Qx : Ah 9x. I know you can't get involved in seeing monsters under the bed in a tournament, but I expect that if I push and get called, or bet and get put all in then the times I'm behind and don't improve or the times I get outdrawn will outweigh the times I win the hand.

Maybe I'm just very pessimistic, and as mentioned my main issue is with how we got here rather than from here on in. Especially at such an early stage of the tournament when we have no need to be involved in these kind of car crash pots.

The fact remains that all over the world players are complaining about bad beats simply because they made the wrong preflop decision or didn't give themselves options in a hand.

Hectorjelly

KQ on a KQ9 flop deepstacked against a tight player who called a raise from the blinds is not a flop to rejoice at, KQ9 against several morons who limp and then call 10BB raises is cause for minor celebration!

hand 2 im definitely calling, they always turn over 77 or KA here

RoundTower

Hectorjelly wrote:

KQ on a KQ9 flop deepstacked against a tight player who called a raise from the blinds is not a flop to rejoice at, KQ9 against several morons who limp and then call 10BB raises is cause for minor celebration!

hand 2 im definitely calling, they always turn over 77 or KA here

I like the way KA looks so much weaker a hand than AK.

Hectorjelly

bops told me its because it makes less straights

cardshark202

its also a valid word in scrabble

EDIT: HJ check your pms please

The Istanbul

Hectorjelly wrote:

bops told me its because it makes less straights

lol lol:D

valor

fwiw Reggie is a scrabble cheat

kryogen

inflating pots oop with hands that tend to be weak post flop is never a good play against such loose poor oponents imo,especially hand 2, you have seen their play,and you can almost guarantee your getting called more then once, why do you want to commit so many chips from the sb with 99? you rarely see a great flop getting callers! you want t be playing these guys post flop in poition with decent holdings, this is where you will stack them

Hand 1: shove happily

Hand 2: call its probably 33-77,or A9+ and if its not....meh