Cork Hurling.

Orizio

So whats next for the current Cork hurling team.Assuming we all agree that some changes need to be made, as its clear we are somewhat behind Kilkenny and Waterford, what exactly should these changes be?

The obvious place to look is at the senior players on the team - basically Donal og, Diarmuid, Sean og, Timmy and Joe Deane.Not that these players are exactly going into retirement age but they have an awful lot of mileage on the clock - do they still have the same hunger they once had, is it more intelligent to begin to replace them now and are they simply now not good enough? Little bad can be said towards Donal og I believe, he was immaculate all year and undisputably one of the beat in the country. However there are questions marks over the other four.

Diarmuid has clearly struggled against the likes of Dan Shanahan and Martin Comerford and in the big games that truly matter.He was sluggish for the first goal on Sunday and responsible for letting Dan so much space for the second. Furter up, the whole of the center back line struggled with Sean og the best of a bad bunch. The ability if people like Curran and even Gardiner cannot be doubted but before these two Waterford games Sean og has been struggling with his form. Timmy was fantastic on Sunday, but with Niall coming back to fitness and Pa Cronin seen as a future star his places next year looks likely to be on the bench. Joe Deane has again struggled with form for the last few years and to me is a player who could very easily be dropped next year. He was nowhere to be seen on Sunday and even with the excuse of the poor quality ball into the full forward, Fraggie and Ronan did much better then he did. He was the first substituted and for a very good reason.

Who are the above four gradually to be replaced by in the coming years then? Here are the obvious names, all coming from our strong under 21 team -Cathal Naughton, Eoin Cadogan, Paudie Sul, Leigh Desmond, Ronan Conway, Kevin Hartnett, John O'Callaghan, Eoin Murphy, Cian O' Connor and the long shots in Adrian Mannix, Pat Horgan and Colm O'Neill. Defensively the situation is somewhat limited - Eoin Cadogan is a cert to be in the squad next year and will surely get a spell in the first team in the league. He is the best under 21 player in the country at the moment, and the natural replacement for Sean og at wing back. The position at full back is somewhat worrying, as Cian O Connor lacks pace and has been more then known to make mistakes under pressure. An alternative is that Cadogan could become a full back or Gardiner could be pushed back there, with Kevin Hartnett or possibly Mannix getting their chance at wing back. However Hartnett is really best at midfield while Mannix is unlikely to make such a big step yet from the under 21's. Its likely then that The Rock will still be full back next year with J O'Callaghan, Mannix, O' Connor and Hartnett being the back ups.

The midfield is imo perfect as it is. However Leigh Desmond is another fantastic under 21 who is deadly accurate from range and exceptionally fast while Hartnett, Naughton, Ben O 'Connor, Ronan and Mannix can all play in midfield. Its a position where we have little to worry about imo.

Up front we have plenty of options but not many are that appetizing. I'm hoping the likes of Canty, Hero and Eoghan Murphy won't be starting next year as right now none look good enough while Canty and Eoghan Murphy have been two of our weakest under 21's. Cathal Naughton and Paudie Sul are two who are likely to be pushing for a place next year. Naughton is an obvious replacement in the corner for Joe Deane - very quick, has a great hand and deadly accurate from every area of the pitch while the exact same can be said for the smaller but ridicously talented Paudie O Sullivan. The problem with the forwards is that we need a real alternative from the bench or on the pitch for the center forward line when they begin to struggle like they did last year. Naughton, Paudie and Desmond will not fill this area purely because they aren't physically strong enough yet. We are left with Ronan Conway basically and maybe the under 21 corner forward Colm O'Neill. Conway has been injured all year but is a talent who would probably be on the senior squad this year, quite strong, mobile and able to point. O'Neill has similar qualities but I think Conway and Timmy will be the go to men from the bench for next year.

As talented as our under 21 (and minor teams) are we are again likely to struggle for real options at full back and the center forward line next year. My opinion is that there will be three changes for the start of next year's championship - Naughton instead of Deane, and Cadogan instead of Sean og with Niall back at center forward.

Daysha

Dropping Seán Og would be suicidal. You don't drop your best player because of a bit of bad form. And yes he is your best player, and one of the bests defenders in the country. Gerald went overboard with the subs at the end of the match Sunday, and the lack of experience in the final 10 minutes showed. They were playing into Waterfords hands. This showed how important cool heads are in tough situations.

As for the hunger, I have no doubt that come May 2008 everyone on the Cork team will be as hungry as ever. You don't just stop trying to win something you've already won. Questions will be asked of this Cork team all winter, but even coming from a Waterford man I'll admit they are a fantastic team. Not much has changed in their team since back in 04/05 when they looked invincible, and whether they see Kilkenny retain the AI, Waterford reach the summit or even Limerick defying the odds, it'll urge them into going back to being the absolute best.

lukin

Dropping Sean Og would be crazy, he was outstanding in the drawn game v Waterford. Timmy Mac might call it quits, even though he played quite well last Sunday until he was (foolishly) substituted.
Joe Deane looks past his best, Diarmuid Sull is still the best full back Cork have even though I think the Cork selectors should take a look at his clubmate Killian Cronin, who plays full-back and is an excellent alternative.
Cathal Naughton must be given a starting place from now on, he's been in outstanding form for the U-21's this year.
There's no need to panic, there are still a lot of brilliant young hurlers on the team (Shane O' Neill, Brian Murphy, 'Fraggy' Murphy) and the O' Connor twins will be 29 next year. Not young by today's standards I know but still not over the hill.

lukin

deise59 wrote:

Dropping Seán Og would be suicidal. You don't drop your best player because of a bit of bad form. And yes he is your best player, and one of the bests defenders in the country. Gerald went overboard with the subs at the end of the match Sunday, and the lack of experience in the final 10 minutes showed. They were playing into Waterfords hands. This showed how important cool heads are in tough situations.

As for the hunger, I have no doubt that come May 2008 everyone on the Cork team will be as hungry as ever. You don't just stop trying to win something you've already won. Questions will be asked of this Cork team all winter, but even coming from a Waterford man I'll admit they are a fantastic team. Not much has changed in their team since back in 04/05 when they looked invincible, and whether they see Kilkenny retain the AI, Waterford reach the summit or even Limerick defying the odds, it'll urge them into going back to being the absolute best.

Yes, I agree. The most obvious switch last Sunday would have been to bring Neil Ronan out to the half-forward line, he would have contested possesion with McGrath and Tony Brown. I can't understand why he didn't do it.

eigrod

Orizio wrote:

Diarmuid has clearly struggled against the likes of Dan Shanahan and Martin Comerford and in the big games that truly matter.He was sluggish for the first goal on Sunday and responsible for letting Dan so much space for the second. Furter up, the whole of the center back line struggled with Sean og the best of a bad bunch.

Diarmuid hasn't struggled on Dan Shanahan. Waterford realised that Diarmuid was able for Shanahan and that's why they played him on Curran for most of the past 2 games. Curran was "marking" Shanahan for 3 of his goals in the last 2 games. The first goal was completely down to the 3 Cork defenders who couldn't pick up the ball & lost possession on the right hand side. The ball was played swiftly to Shanahan who had a cracking finish......not Diarmuid's fault that his fellow defenders didn't clear the ball as they should have.

Admittedly, Diarmaid struggled on Eoin McGrath when he came on because he started coming out the field and neither Diarmaid or the Cork selectors knew what to do about that.

What games did he struggle against Marting Comerford ?

BIG-SLICK-POKER

Look there is not much wrong with Cork Hurling they had a bad season but yet so easily could have been in the All ireland Final still , Waterford have a good outfit but its still a toss of a coin between us .. I watched the u21 Cork team take Waterford assunder last week and the Minors won the munster final , I mean there is serious talent coming through and they will be popped in when needed and when the time is right ..I would not be getting rid of anyone on the cork side just yet .. As a Waterford Man I hate playing Cork as i can never tell who will win . I mean no man can say Waterford are a better side then Cork sure we were better on that day but Overall i would still say cork are slightly a better side and have proven that with all Ireland titles and Finals ..

I think this Quarter Final defeat will only wake a few players up i really think there were probs from the Managerial side of thing as i saw him make some crazy decisions which were pushing the game in Waterfords Favour , I ask the Question are ye happy with the manager . The players still have it in the tank its wheter that tank can be used in the right way to get every last drop out of it

rebs23

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

i really think there were probs from the Managerial side of thing as i saw him make some crazy decisions which were pushing the game in Waterfords Favour ,

We made some strange decisions on the sideline alright and you would wonder about Gerald being too much of a gentleman and a yes man. Too many people coming up to him with suggestions all through the game and a lack of the renowned Cork cuteness. Where was our game plan, our tactics and why did we persist with certain ones? High puck outs to the Half forward line, the bane of every Cork supporter at the moment. Will have to be sorted for next year.
Even our tactics were puzzling at times including not bringing on Cathal Naughton earlier, Neil Ronan out to the half forward line and especially the way we marked the roving Waterford forward line, a brilliant tactic used by Waterford and KK. For the second goal especially Sully came out, gap behind him and Dan clings it. Contrast that when Cork came at them running at the start of the 1st and 2nd half Waterford back line just backed off/retreated and left them take a point.
Its on our tactics and game plan where we'll have to up it next year not neccessarily the players.
BTW Waterford just better get on and win it this year FFS.

premierstone

BIG-SLICK-POKER wrote:

Look there is not much wrong with Cork Hurling they had a bad season but yet so easily could have been in the All ireland Final still , Waterford have a good outfit but its still a toss of a coin between us .. I watched the u21 Cork team take Waterford assunder last week and the Minors won the munster final , I mean there is serious talent coming through and they will be popped in when needed and when the time is right ..I would not be getting rid of anyone on the cork side just yet .. As a Waterford Man I hate playing Cork as i can never tell who will win . I mean no man can say Waterford are a better side then Cork sure we were better on that day but Overall i would still say cork are slightly a better side and have proven that with all Ireland titles and Finals ..

I think this Quarter Final defeat will only wake a few players up i really think there were probs from the Managerial side of thing as i saw him make some crazy decisions which were pushing the game in Waterfords Favour , I ask the Question are ye happy with the manager . The players still have it in the tank its wheter that tank can be used in the right way to get every last drop out of it

Jaysus thats news to me better tell the Tipp boys to give back there medals so :rolleyes:

BIG-SLICK-POKER

premierstone wrote:

Jaysus thats news to me better tell the Tipp boys to give back there medals so :rolleyes:

lol yeah my mistake -- Watched that game Tipp looked good also mite get one or 2 out of it

premierstone

God knows we could do with them

Lex Luthor

As you point out, there is plenty of talent coming through that will eventually replace the "older" players. There is no doubt this Cork team is in a slight transition but like most have said, we could have been in the final again this year had it not been for a bit of luck, a few wrong decisions at key moments with substitutions and the killer instinct of one Lismore man to take a chance when it was presented to him.

People were saying the same about Kilkenny in 2005 and look at them now.

Orizio

Sean og is not our best player (he is not even the best player on our center back line), and despite having one good game against Waterford his form has been inconsistent for a couple of years now. More importantly, Eoin Cadogan is our best under 21 and some fresh blood is needed, as our loss to Waterford shows. Does anyone think putting out the same 15 next year is really going to change our fortunes? We were comprehensively outplayed by Kilkenny last year and against Waterford twice this year.

As I said, people like Joe, Diarmuid and Sean og need to be replaced over the coming years, and the likes of Cadogan, Naughton and Paudie Sul will need match time next year to help ease their progress into championship Hurling.

Daysha

Orizio wrote:

Sean og is not our best player (he is not even the best player on our center back line), and despite having one good game against Waterford his form has been inconsistent for a couple of years now. More importantly, Eoin Cadogan is our best under 21 and some fresh blood is needed, as our loss to Waterford shows. Does anyone think putting out the same 15 next year is really going to change our fortunes? We were comprehensively outplayed by Kilkenny last year and against Waterford twice this year.

As I said, people like Joe, Diarmuid and Sean og need to be replaced over the coming years, and the likes of Cadogan, Naughton and Paudie Sul will need match time next year to help ease their progress into championship Hurling.

Remember in one of those Waterford matches ye were "comprehensively outplayed" when ye were missing 2 of the 3 players you're suggesting should be dropped from the panel!

You're blowing one bad season way out of proportion. Up to the AI final last year ye knocked out Waterford and Limerick, two extremely hungry teams, by a point. And then there was that 1 pt victory over Clare when ye looked dead and buried. These were all acheived by the vast majority of the current Cork team. Ye lost to Kilkenny simply because they were the better team on the day.

Again this year, ye had a bit of misfortune with Semplegate, and ye found yourself in the group stages. The Tipp match was a poor loss but in the 2nd half of the original Waterford Cork quarter final there were huge similarities in that match and the semi between the two last year. That Cork never say die attitude. The only difference being Waterford had improved substantially in that year. If Cork had been playing anyone but Waterford or Kilkenny in the quarters, they would still be in this years Championship.

Now, does the past 12 months still seem as bad? If I were Gerald, I'd give them at least another Championship to prove their worth to the side. See how they respond. Suddenly dropping 3 experienced players who formed the backbone of a great Cork team wont bring the Cork of old back

Lex Luthor

Orizio wrote:

Sean og is not our best player (he is not even the best player on our center back line), and despite having one good game against Waterford his form has been inconsistent for a couple of years now. More importantly, Eoin Cadogan is our best under 21 and some fresh blood is needed, as our loss to Waterford shows. Does anyone think putting out the same 15 next year is really going to change our fortunes? We were comprehensively outplayed by Kilkenny last year and against Waterford twice this year.

As I said, people like Joe, Diarmuid and Sean og need to be replaced over the coming years, and the likes of Cadogan, Naughton and Paudie Sul will need match time next year to help ease their progress into championship Hurling.

Sean Og will definitely be replaced over the next few years but I still think he has 2-3yrs of top class hurling ahead of him. Only he will know if he is not performing at his best. This is a man of pride and will step aside if he knows he is not up to playing at the top level before being replaced.
Anyone will tell you that a team with Sean Og is a far better team than without him.
He would walk into any team in the country. Give that man a cricket bat and he would be just as good.

Orizio

deise59 wrote:

Remember in one of those Waterford matches ye were "comprehensively outplayed" when ye were missing 2 of the 3 players you're suggesting should be dropped from the panel!

You're blowing one bad season way out of proportion. Up to the AI final last year ye knocked out Waterford and Limerick, two extremely hungry teams, by a point. And then there was that 1 pt victory over Clare when ye looked dead and buried. These were all acheived by the vast majority of the current Cork team. Ye lost to Kilkenny simply because they were the better team on the day.

Again this year, ye had a bit of misfortune with Semplegate, and ye found yourself in the group stages. The Tipp match was a poor loss but in the 2nd half of the original Waterford Cork quarter final there were huge similarities in that match and the semi between the two last year. That Cork never say die attitude. The only difference being Waterford had improved substantially in that year. If Cork had been playing anyone but Waterford or Kilkenny in the quarters, they would still be in this years Championship.

Now, does the past 12 months still seem as bad? If I were Gerald, I'd give them at least another Championship to prove their worth to the side. See how they respond. Suddenly dropping 3 experienced players who formed the backbone of a great Cork team wont bring the Cork of old back

How am I blowing one bad season out of proportion? I said we need to look to replace the old guard over the coming years.Next year Naughton, Paudie Sul and Cadogan should get their chances in the league and some kind of time playing championship hurling, and that maybe Joe Deane and Sean og are past their best. Whats OTT about that exactly?Nothing.

On the other hand, if you want to act like we haven't problems in our forwards, that we haven't failed to replace the likes of Corcoran/ Sherlock/ Mulcahy, that we haven't gotten enough options on the bench and act like we don't need to breathe some new players for the future, then I can easily accuse you of diminishing the problem.

Daysha

Orizio wrote:

I said we need to look to replace the old guard over the coming years.

"My opinion is that there will be three changes for the start of next year's championship - Naughton instead of Deane, and Cadogan instead of Sean og with Niall back at center forward."

You said that in your first post. Thats not exactly replacing the guard over a number of years. Thats one year, which would be blowing it out of proportion

I'm all for a structured timeframe where the eventual replacements of Sean Og and co are 100% comfortable in their roles. This can be brought about a few league matches, then a few sub appearences in the championship. Only when Sean Og and Diarmuid are fully past their best should they be dropped. And they will NOT be passed their best next year.

yahoo_moe

deise59 wrote:

"My opinion is that there will be three changes for the start of next year's championship - Naughton instead of Deane, and Cadogan instead of Sean og with Niall back at center forward."

You said that in your first post. Thats not exactly replacing the guard over a number of years. Thats one year, which would be blowing it out of proportion

I'm all for a structured timeframe where the eventual replacements of Sean Og and co are 100% comfortable in their roles. This can be brought about a few league matches, then a few sub appearences in the championship. Only when Sean Og and Diarmuid are fully past their best should they be dropped. And they will NOT be passed their best next year.

well said, i agree 100%... i think sean og was absolutely immense in the last two games, no way i'd be writing him off yet.

I also don't think there's any need for a "Where now for Cork hurling?" type inquest. Granted they'd a poor year by the exceptional standards that this team has set over the last couple of years but the main problem last Sunday was really that they shouldn't have been there at all - they should have been able to beat Tipp in the qualifiers (and there's no way Cork would have been beaten by that Wexford side) and even at that stage, they were damn close to winning the first QF match, just couldn't close it out

Overall I'd say they were poorer than usual this year but no major reassessment needed - they're still a very good side and can only get better as new blood keeps coming through the ranks and breaking onto the senior panel

Orizio

deise59 wrote:

"My opinion is that there will be three changes for the start of next year's championship - Naughton instead of Deane, and Cadogan instead of Sean og with Niall back at center forward."

You said that in your first post. Thats not exactly replacing the guard over a number of years. Thats one year, which would be blowing it out of proportion

I'm all for a structured timeframe where the eventual replacements of Sean Og and co are 100% comfortable in their roles. This can be brought about a few league matches, then a few sub appearences in the championship. Only when Sean Og and Diarmuid are fully past their best should they be dropped. And they will NOT be passed their best next year.

I don't see how dropping two players - both of which are past their best imo -is overblown.I saw us play Waterford three times this year - and Kilkenny last year - and we were outplayed every time. And Kilkenny are only getting better.Make one change for next year - in one of our stronger lines - is unlikely to be enough.

People seem to have a biased viewpoint when it comes to Sean og in particular.He was not 'absolutely immense' in any sense last week and like Deane he has struggled for form for a couple of years now. The idea that he is our best player is laughable - better then the O' Connors?Curran?Kenny?Really?More importantly Cadogan is the best player we have not in the current squad, the best under 21 we have and like O' Neill and O' Sullivan a vital player for the future. He is also a fantastic footballer, and unlikely to commit to both codes.

Pride Fighter

Ah, sure Cork will always be there or there abouts in the hurling. Most counties would kill to have the players you do. However your team has stagnated a little bit and fresh blood is needed in a few areas, a few half backs and one or two goalscoring forwards like Dan the man. It will be good for Hurling in general for Waterford to be in the top 3 on a regular basis and if Limerick can maintain their position the rivalry with Limerick and Waterford can drive Cork on to AI success in a year or two.

Daysha

Orizio wrote:

I saw us play Waterford three times this year - and Kilkenny last year - and we were outplayed every time.

Did we watch the same matches? I cant believe Im gonna defend Cork against Waterford here but no way have we outplayed you in the past 2 matches. We were definately the better team in the Munster match but last Sunday Waterford were woeful in the first half. Some shocking wides, where as Cork hit their first wide in the 33rd minute! We should have been further behind in the first half and we would have been if it weren't for Dan. Again. In the second half it was fairly even stephen until the 2nd goal which totally changed the match. The Cork management team kinda lost their heads a bit while on the field, your players kept on knocking it to our half back line when it was obvious to anyone Ken, Tony and Bull were controlling things there. Ye won the first half, we won the last ten minutes, and goals win matches. Is that being totally outplayed?

Sir Graball

eigrod wrote:

What games did he struggle against Marting Comerford ?

2003 final for one, the one ye hit 18 wides and claimed ye were robbed in:D

Lex Luthor

I think Joe Deane is someone who could do with improving....he has not really done it for me and to give him the capts armband was a strange decision

lukin

Sir Graball wrote:

2003 final for one, the one ye hit 18 wides and claimed ye were robbed in:D

I don'tt think that we ever claimed we were robbed, it's just that we had the chances to win but didn't take them. That after all is the name of the game so we can have no complaints, KK took their chances and fair play to them.