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MA articles in Metro Eireann

13

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 255 ✭✭Scramble


    When I originally posted the links to Rob's articles, it was precisely because they were funny and a bit irreverent.

    What makes the TKD article worth reading is not that it informs anyone about TKD, its history or even that it gives an insight into the class format and training methods of someplace I'll probably never go. It's the gentle lampooning of the instructor that makes it funny. Anyone who's spent time in trad martial arts can probably identify immediately with some guy who's a stickler for getting things 'just right technically' and plays fast and loose with fact and reason when it comes to discussing the strengths and weaknesses of his martial art.

    Take the slightly iconoclastic element out the articles and you'd be left with something far less interesting to read. Columnists should be free to express themselves even if what they have to say offends some people. No-one would want to read Jeremy Clarkson if he strictly limited himself to talking about cars, and didn't rant about environmentalism gone mad and so on.

    My take on it anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Michael O Leary


    Roper wrote:
    Michael,
    sometimes on this forum you can come across as an overly PC, pedantic sort, and this is one of those times.

    Hi Roper,

    I have a confession to make. I was not really sure what the word "pedantic "meant and as you have called me this 2 or 3 times over the past year, I thought it would be a good idea to find out what it meant. So I had a look on an online dictionary and it generally meant someone who focuses on trivial details. So using this definition I don't agree with you.

    This is an internet forum for I believe "Martial Arts Discussions". This involves debating issues and any argument is make up of details. So instead of taking the approach for example,
    Person A: MMA is crap.
    Person B: Not its not but you are an as*hole.
    Instead I will focus on their reasoning down to see if their argument is rational. This involves examining the details of the point the person is making.

    So I "do" focus on details but the question is whether they are "trivial" or not. I don't feel that they are and have tried as much as possible to link whatever point I am making to the details in the other person's argument.

    So in conclusion I would argue that I am not "Pedantic". Feel free to come back to me if you think I am but I would expect a little more than, "Oh yes you are".

    Am I being "pedantic" now? :rolleyes:

    Michael.
    www.iewto.org



    So breaking


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    Am I being "pedantic" now? :rolleyes:
    i'd say yes a little.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭Rob Carry


    There's a few more of these up now if anyone is still following them:

    Wrestling in Herculese Gym (thanks for the directions):



    Judo (although it says amateur wrestling on the top for some reason):

    http://www.metroeireann.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=600&Itemid=26

    And Liam's Silat class on another thread:

    [URL="http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=54101461#post54101461"

    There's columns on Savate, kickboxing in Loughlinstown, Sumo wrestling, Irish stick fighting and a column about a 'stretching for martial arts class' I did in Martial Arts Inc all done but yet to come online. There'll also be another three editions written over the next couple of weeks before it's wound up.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,923 ✭✭✭Nothingcompares


    the one on hercules was good but it's a pity you didn't go to a judo club. Why dind't you just write the judo one around now after you had a chance to go to a club?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Rob Carry wrote:
    ...they're supposed to be Samurai...

    Actually, by definition a samurai needs a lord to serve. These guys are trying to be iaidoka. While I'm on the subject, again by definiton, one who practises ninjitsu or ninpo is a ninja. Just as anyone who plays football on a regular basis, regardless of their competetive level is a footballer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Gorman wrote:
    ...bowing to the swords and dressing in the casual samurai outfit...is all this extra baggage necessary ?...

    Gorman wrote:
    ...The Muay Thai guys dress up like Muay Thai guys - they are Muay Thai guys...

    Appearantly it is.

    Seriously though, you take the piss out of one set guys for following, what we can all agree are out-dated and now defunkt traditions, but not another. I wonder would you take the piss out of the Ram Muay I perform if I were not getting in a ring? Something doesn't have to be part of a combat system to be relevant to the art.

    You have a laugh about wannabes bowing to their swords. The fighters in my gym bow to the ring before practise, does that make them wannabe nok muay?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭Gorman


    Appearantly it is.

    Seriously though, you take the piss out of one set guys for following, what we can all agree are out-dated and now defunkt traditions, but not another. I wonder would you take the piss out of the Ram Muay I perform if I were not getting in a ring?

    If Ram Muay was all you ever practised, then yes I would probably take the piss out of you. I would think that it is silly just to do Ram Muay if you were never going do anything else associated with Muay Thai, like train for a fight or actually fight.
    You have a laugh about wannabes bowing to their swords. The fighters in my gym bow to the ring before practise, does that make them wannabe nok muay?

    I don't have a clue what "nok muay" are, are they Muay Thai fighters? Serious question, google wasn't very helpful.


    The reason I pick on Iaido guy is that all they do is ceremony, dress up and pretend. To use your example, Muay Thai, I'm presuming that all ceremony is proceeded by some form of training or fighting. Correct me if I'm wrong though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Gorman wrote:
    If Ram Muay was all you ever practised, then yes I would probably take the piss out of you. I would think that it is silly just to do Ram Muay if you were never going do anything else associated with Muay Thai, like train for a fight or actually fight.

    Okay, point taken. Possibly a bad example. Let us use the example of the mongkon (head dress) instead. It is pointless, it has no functional use in the gym or the ring. In fact it is only worn for a brief time, during the ritual dance. It has only a spiritual signifigance. It is afforded the highest place of honour in the gym, after that of the king. Would you say that this is worthy of a piss take? And why?
    I'm not trying to be smart here but you do seem to think that the traditions of the combat systems are fine and dandy but that the traditions of the non competetive arts are worthy of ridicule. Any system, ancient or modern has it's own protocols and customs. Like the bowing to the sword thing. Wierd I'll grant you, but no wierder than all the rigmarole you have to go through when firing guns at a gun range for example, or praying in a church, if that's your thing.
    I'm just trying to find the distinction between which rituals are genuine and which are make believe. By your standard, the preist bowing before the tabernacle is genuine because he believes in it and he is going to preach about it but the iaidoka is only playing make beleive because he does not serve a 16th century feudal lord.

    Gorman wrote:
    I don't have a clue what "nok muay" are, are they Muay Thai fighters? Serious question, google wasn't very helpful.

    Yes. Sorry, wasn't very clear there.

    Gorman wrote:
    The reason I pick on Iaido guy is that all they do is ceremony, dress up and pretend. To use your example, Muay Thai, I'm presuming that all ceremony is proceeded by some form of training or fighting. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

    I'm not sure you're qualified to make that generalisation. I'm sure there are a few guys down there who are praying to be attacked by a group of rogue ninjas on their way home from practise, but if those guys are there then I'm sure there must also be some who are trying to develop themselves spiritually.
    Remeber, these people don't profess to being a self defense system but a path of spiritual refinment. Does it attract it's share of nutters? Sure, but then again, you show me a group that does anything and doesn't have at least two wannabe, weekend warrior type nutjobs and I'll show you the scientologists. :)

    Also, in relation to a point you made earlier about spiritual enlightenment in Iaido, try a book called Zen in the martial arts, by Taizen Deshimaru. He will explain a lot better than I can about the pursuit of zen mind through the pursuit of perfection in repetitious acts. Like holding the weighted rod in zazen, or performing 100 strikes of a hammer while making a sword or the endless, iai, giri, chiburi, noto (draw, cut, shake, resheath) of iaido and kenjutsu.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34 DeletedPencil


    Can somebody perhaps define what spirituality is? (Especially in the context of martial arts).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Can somebody perhaps define what spirituality is? (Especially in the context of martial arts).

    Not really no. That is probably why there are so many books on the subject. :) Wiki thinks it's like this.

    If you want further study, I would recommend the book of five rings by Musashi or Zen in the Martial arts by Taizen Deshimaru. Or any of the other ten thoushand books on the subject.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Michael O Leary


    Good points Dave.

    To any others who are making fun of the Iaido guys for supposedly dressing up and pretending to be Samurai on what basis can you say this? How did Samurai dress? I am guessing with helmets and body armour. When they were "off-duty" I imagine they dressed more of less the same as everyone else which is how the Iaido guys dress. So the Iaido guys dress in traditional Japanese garb which is the same as western Muay Thai guys dressing in traditional Thai dress when practising with weapons (Krabi Krabong) or traditional dress in Irish dancing.

    And I imagine the way they dress is beneficial to the practise of Iaido. Can you imagine drawing a big Samurai sword while wearing a tracksuit?

    Its untrue to say that all Iaido guys do is ceremony, dress up and pretend. They are practising a type of mental exercise/meditation. It may not interest anyone here (including myself) but it is no less worthy a pass time than anything practised by anyone here including myself.

    Regards,

    Michael
    www.iewto.org


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭Gorman


    Okay, point taken. Possibly a bad example. Let us use the example of the mongkon (head dress) instead. It is pointless, it has no functional use in the gym or the ring. In fact it is only worn for a brief time, during the ritual dance. It has only a spiritual signifigance. It is afforded the highest place of honour in the gym, after that of the king. Would you say that this is worthy of a piss take? And why?

    To be honest, I think anyone bowing to relic, spiritual object or monarch is weird...but thats a HUGE can of worms :)
    I do martial arts purely for sport and good times, I just cannot, and probably never will, understand anyone who wants to add religion/spirituality to the mix. A gym is not the place to be learning or teaching these things IMHO. I'm not really in favour of any organised religion. If I had kids I would not like any gym instructor to be guiding their spirituality.

    Also, in relation to a point you made earlier about spiritual enlightenment in Iaido, try a book called Zen in the martial arts, by Taizen Deshimaru. He will explain a lot better than I can about the pursuit of zen mind through the pursuit of perfection in repetitious acts. Like holding the weighted rod in zazen, or performing 100 strikes of a hammer while making a sword or the endless, iai, giri, chiburi, noto (draw, cut, shake, resheath) of iaido and kenjutsu.

    Thanks, I'll actually try to download a copy. Your the first person to try to answer this question for me, and I'm glad you didn't try to BS me :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Gorman wrote:
    ...I think anyone bowing to relic, spiritual object or monarch is weird...
    Well, it's not for everyone I'll grant you but it doesn't neccessarily invalidate it's practise.


    Gorman wrote:
    ...purely for sport and good times, I just cannot, and probably never will, understand anyone who wants to add religion/spirituality...
    Again, that's fine that you have that opinion, but others don't and their pursuit of enlightenment is no less valid than your pursuit of good times. One might even say that good times is your enlightenment.
    Gorman wrote:
    ...gym is not the place to be learning or teaching these things IMHO...
    Possibly not in Europe, but this is Japanese philosophy we're talking about and they have a difference of opinion to yourself. In fact in most of Asia, religion and spirituality go hand in hand with martial arts. Actually, there is a lot of praying and bowing at my local football pitch before the locals have practise.
    Gorman wrote:
    I'm not really in favour of any organised religion...
    Nor am I, but I am even less in favour of anyone feeling justified in telling anyone else, what is or isn't a valid set of beliefs.
    Gorman wrote:
    If I had kids I would not like any gym instructor to be guiding their spirituality...
    Nor would I. If he was just a gym instructoer. However, just because someone teaches a physical discipline doesn't mean they are not qualified to lecture on their own belief system. And if my kids wanted a sense of spirituality, I wouldn't ry and stop them. (Well, maybe a little) To use Iaido as an example, by the time a student becomes a teacher they should have been studying zen buddhism for several years and would be in an ideal position to lecture the uniniated on the subject.
    Gorman wrote:
    Thanks, I'll actually try to download a copy. Your the first person to try to answer this question for me, and I'm glad you didn't try to BS me :)
    Actually, I'm just good at disguising it :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Michael O Leary


    Gorman wrote:
    I just cannot, and probably never will, understand anyone who wants to add religion/spirituality to the mix. A gym is not the place to be learning or teaching these things IMHO.

    Fair enough but the Iaido guys don't teach in a gym, they teach in a Dojo and they are quite upfront about what they do. They do not try and "slip in" religion/spirituality. It is an instrinsic element of what they do.

    One of the reasons why the Samurai were so taken with Zen Buddhism is that it emphasized reincarnation which made them a bit braver about going into battle. However Zen and Buddhism are distinct. Zen or Chan in Chinese is a type of meditation practised way before Buddhism and was superimposed onto it to form a type of Buddhism. I "think" the Iaido guys emphasise the Zen meditative technique rather than Buddhist belief so the practise of Iaido probably has nothing to do with an organised religion.

    Regards,

    Michael.
    www.iewto.org


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 396 ✭✭The Bored One


    One of the reasons why the Samurai were so taken with Zen Buddhism is that it emphasized reincarnation which made them a bit braver about going into battle. However Zen and Buddhism are distinct. Zen or Chan in Chinese is a type of meditation practised way before Buddhism and was superimposed onto it to form a type of Buddhism. I "think" the Iaido guys emphasise the Zen meditative technique rather than Buddhist belief so the practise of Iaido probably has nothing to do with an organised religion.

    Regards,

    Michael.
    www.iewto.org

    Thats not really too accurate. Re-incarnation was emphasized by Buddhism but not really by Zen Buddhism. Zen by nature is anti-dogmatic.
    It was popular among the Samurai culture because it Zen is about the intuitive, rather than trying to break the world down into seperate parts, experiencing it as a whole.
    As a physical and warrior culture, this type of intutive way would be more popular than abstract philopsophy.

    And Zen is incapable of being an organised religion. It would defeat the purpose of Zen. I think it was Dr Suzuki, a highly respected Zen practioner, that said "Zen rejects all external authority"
    Therefore it remains a highly personal thing, as it is based on the intuitive. And no can judge that but the indiviudal themselves.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭Michael O Leary


    Thats not really too accurate. Re-incarnation was emphasized by Buddhism but not really by Zen Buddhism. Zen by nature is anti-dogmatic.
    It was popular among the Samurai culture because it Zen is about the intuitive, rather than trying to break the world down into seperate parts, experiencing it as a whole.
    As a physical and warrior culture, this type of intutive way would be more popular than abstract philopsophy.

    And Zen is incapable of being an organised religion. It would defeat the purpose of Zen. I think it was Dr Suzuki, a highly respected Zen practioner, that said "Zen rejects all external authority"
    Therefore it remains a highly personal thing, as it is based on the intuitive. And no can judge that but the indiviudal themselves.

    Thats very interesting and I stand corrected, thanks. :) Maybe I read that Buddhism was appealing to the Samurai because of reincarnation. It was a long time ago that I read it.

    Anyway my point would be that Zen and Buddhism can be seperated and based on what you said about intutition and Zen I would imagine the Iaido guys focus on Zen rather Buddhism.

    But I could be wrong. I welcome any corrections. :)

    Regards,

    Michael
    www.iewto.org


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 98 ✭✭Gorman


    Well, it's not for everyone I'll grant you but it doesn't neccessarily invalidate it's practise.

    Again, that's fine that you have that opinion, but others don't and their pursuit of enlightenment is no less valid than your pursuit of good times. One might even say that good times is your enlightenment.

    Possibly not in Europe, but this is Japanese philosophy we're talking about and they have a difference of opinion to yourself. In fact in most of Asia, religion and spirituality go hand in hand with martial arts. Actually, there is a lot of praying and bowing at my local football pitch before the locals have practise.

    Nor am I, but I am even less in favour of anyone feeling justified in telling anyone else, what is or isn't a valid set of beliefs.

    Nor would I. If he was just a gym instructoer. However, just because someone teaches a physical discipline doesn't mean they are not qualified to lecture on their own belief system. And if my kids wanted a sense of spirituality, I wouldn't ry and stop them. (Well, maybe a little) To use Iaido as an example, by the time a student becomes a teacher they should have been studying zen buddhism for several years and would be in an ideal position to lecture the uniniated on the subject.

    Ok Ok, this horse is nearly dead from all the beating it's getting!

    1) I'll agree that if people want to do martial arts & spirituality together at the same time, it's their call. I just think they're weird.
    Fair enough but the Iaido guys don't teach in a gym, they teach in a Dojo and they are quite upfront about what they do. They do not try and "slip in" religion/spirituality. It is an instrinsic element of what they do.

    2) I think most of the Iaido classes around the world don't in fact teach any Zen or spirituality , they just, more or less dress up and draw their swords. I'd still love to know the content of the ideal Zen teaching Iaido class. Saying that learning Iaido is learing about Zen is idealistic, I honestly believe this doesn't happen in real life.

    3) If I was one of those people who wanted to learn spirituality through martial arts, how would I check the credentials of an instructor to make sure he is not full of BS? It's not like Judo or boxing where I could check he gyms competition history to find out the level of instruction.

    4) I still think the articles where spot on, and that any novice who wants to find out what MA is for them should read these articles!

    5) And finally, I hope no Samurai or Ninjas were offended by any of my comments;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,448 ✭✭✭Roper


    Gorman wrote:
    1) I'll agree that if people want to do martial arts & spirituality together at the same time, it's their call. I just think they're weird.
    Whereas those guys who believe in a zombie who walked the earth 2000 years ago and think they drink his blood and eat his flesh every sunday are perfectly normal.

    One mans weirdness...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 34 DeletedPencil


    Roper wrote:
    Whereas those guys who believe in a zombie who walked the earth 2000 years ago and think they drink his blood and eat his flesh every sunday are perfectly normal.

    One mans weirdness...

    HAHA! I gotta remember that one. :D


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 160 ✭✭kravist


    The spirituality/meditation aspect of martial art IMO has value although it is essentialy absent in what i train in.
    To make ones training more efficient, one needs to remove themselves from stresses/tensions of modern life.Muscles work more efficiently in a relaxed state, ie: free from tension.
    So to maximise the value of classes i for one see the value of some form of stress relief/relaxation along with hard physical work.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 826 ✭✭✭SBG Ireland


    kravist wrote:
    So to maximise the value of classes i for one see the value of some form of stress relief/relaxation along with hard physical work.

    it is of course the hard physical work and facing ones ego and personal fears through being hit/tapped out repeatedly that leads to any sort of 'spiritual' growth

    james cambell often said the only spiritual experience he ever had was through athletics

    unforetuneatly 'the hard physical work and facing ones ego and personal fears through being hit/tapped out repeatedly' are more often than not missing in martial arts.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 437 ✭✭silat liam


    it is of course the hard physical work and facing ones ego and personal fears through being hit/tapped out repeatedly that leads to any sort of 'spiritual' growth

    .


    Just wondering what kind of "Spiritual " growth you get from bring hit. Does the person doing the hitting get the same "Spiritual" growth ?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭muckwarrior


    silat liam wrote:
    Just wondering what kind of "Spiritual " growth you get from bring hit. Does the person doing the hitting get the same "Spiritual" growth ?
    Humility? I guess it's good for keeping your ego in check!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭spiral


    I'd imagine that its the same growth that anyone gets when they are struggling to overcome something and the joy that comes when your body and mind come together to allow you do that . ie pull off a really smooth move when your timing and strength just come together whether its pulling a weight off the floor , a throw, landing a sweet punch on someone, scoring a goal that feeling that I get anyway when it all comes together.
    OTOH it takes a lot of times of it not coming together for you to appreciate it:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 826 ✭✭✭SBG Ireland


    spiral and muck pretty much sum up what i mean there

    i do not of course mean you should stand there and allow someone to hit you until you've reached enlightenment. i'm talking about sparring....being in the, and fully present in the NOW - not regretting the past or worrying about the imaginary future


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 106 ✭✭DITTKD


    silat liam wrote:
    Just wondering what kind of "Spiritual " growth you get from bring hit. Does the person doing the hitting get the same "Spiritual" growth ?


    I'm just a little curious, what's your take on it?
    I thought everyone would think in a similar way to Muck, spiral and SBG there. Not that the word "Spiritual" would or should come up very often, but it's as good a word for describing the appeal of sparring as any other.

    Is it just your definition of Spiritual is different?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 160 ✭✭kravist


    it is of course the hard physical work and facing ones ego and personal fears through being hit/tapped out repeatedly that leads to any sort of 'spiritual' growth

    james cambell often said the only spiritual experience he ever had was through athletics

    unforetuneatly 'the hard physical work and facing ones ego and personal fears through being hit/tapped out repeatedly' are more often than not missing in martial arts.

    i agree completly,
    but apart from the "Physical" side of it ie: the hard work, the relaxation part is also a vital cog in the wheel. Muscles are more likely to be strained/torn when working in a hypertonic state. In that regard the meditation/relaxation relaxes the body. Call it Zen, breathing exercises, whatever!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 826 ✭✭✭SBG Ireland


    exactly...its what the ying yang symbol means. balance.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59 ✭✭Rob Carry


    Sumo:

    http://www.metroeireann.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=734&Itemid=26

    Savate:

    http://www.metroeireann.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=683&Itemid=26

    There's one or two editions still to be posted online, but the column is basically finished because I'm off to Thailand to work, drink and train (in that order) for the foreseeable future. That said, for anyone interested, I'll be continuing on with a more general weekly column (which will still have a heavy M.A. leaning) that will hopefully be appearing online regularly as well as in the print edition of our paper.

    Thanks again for all the feedback.

    Rob.


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