Nasty Qualy move by Alonso ?

v10

Looks like the tension between Alonso and Hamilton has just moved up a notch ...

From f1-live.com:

Ron Dennis was not smiling at the end of the qualifying session despite the fact that Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton locked out the front row ahead of tomorrow’s 70-lap Hungarian Grand Prix. As if there was not enough controversy at McLaren Mercedes at the moment, the final second of qualifying would bring yet more.

Lewis Hamilton held the provisional pole position following his first run in qualifying, but heading to the pits to take his second and final set of tyres, he found team-mate Alonso sitting there in the pit box, tyres changed but not moving.

We do not know if Alonso was instructed to wait in the pits, or took his own decision to wait. The end result however was that Alonso was able to get back out and start his final flying lap, while Hamilton was unable to make it around in time... A strange situation as Alonso would complete the final flying lap and claim the Pole Position from Hamilton. The championship leader would deflect all questions regarding the issue after climbing from his car.

Oblomov

And the stewards are now raking an interest..

aidan_dunne

Ooooh, now things are getting interesting alright! Shades of the psychological mindgames Senna used to play on Prost back in the days when they were teammates at McLaren as well.

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the debriefing room afterwards to see what really happened and was said! Pity that all McLaren will probably say later on about the issue is your bog-standard, boring, politically-correct, "team mis-communication, blah, blah, blah, everything is fine within the team, blah, blah, nothing to see here folks" press release. :rolleyes:

Still, though, Ron Dennis definitely wasn't pleased after qualy. Hmmm, I wonder will he now start taking a closer look at Alonso's contract, eh? Because, so far, Alonso has proven himself to be quite self-serving and not much of a team-player and Dennis doesn't like that, does he? That was one of the (many!) reasons Montoya ended up getting the boot as well, because he looked after number 1 rather than the team's interests, often to his own detriment.

Still though, you've got to love a bit of in-team fighting and rivalry, don't you? Makes things so much more interesting for all of us watching...... and God knows F1 could do with being livened up a bit these days!

Manic Moran

It was too well timed for Alonso to have done it himself, I think.

What I saw (From my vantage point above and about 30 yards away) was the lolipop going up, and nothing happened. The LPM kindof did a 'come - on' indicator with his hand, and still nothing happened. At this point, I had thought ALO had stalled, but there was no activity around, and the LPM is still casually giving the 'move along' signal with his left hand. Alonso, I think, moved his hands off the steering wheel for a second, as if it was a 'something's wrong', but quickly returned them. LPM just continues the 'move along' motion, casually. Finally ALO moves out, and HAM moves in. Quick change, and off goes HAM down the pits. I look down at my monitor and think to myself "Hmm... 1 minute 28 to go. The lap takes 1.20 at speed. (And a few other thoughts). The thought of a deliberate delay certainly crossed my mind at that point.

The problem is that it was too finely timed for Alonso to have done it on his own. He couldn't have been looking at a watch and there was no clock within view as far as I could tell. The only possibilities are a radio call on his net, and I'm sure McClaren have all the radio calls recorded, or some form of secret signal passed by a co-conspirator. I couldn't see which way ALO was looking, unfortunately.

Frankly, though, I don't think the Stewards should get involved. Intra-team stuff should be fine. Adds to the entertainment for viewers!

NTM

god's toy

That pissed me right off, I support McLaren but I hope the Stewards go to town on this one. Schumacher didn't get away with it at Monaco when he stopped on a corner so I dont why Alonzo should.

v10

From Autosport :

McLaren team boss Ron Dennis absolved Fernando Alonso of any blame in today's qualifying incident - and revealed it was actually Lewis Hamilton who triggered the pitstop hold-up.

I must say that sounds like the biggest pile of horse$hite I've ever read. Fair enough Ron Dennis doen't want either driver to be penalised but jaysus I thought it was obvious that Alonso did it on purpose regardless of his reasons to do so. There was no valid reason the team would hold Alonso there and sacrifice Hamilton's final Qualy Run .. it would make no sense.
This makes me question anything Ron Dennis would call 'The Truth'

aidan_dunne

Manic Moran wrote:

The problem is that it was too finely timed for Alonso to have done it on his own. He couldn't have been looking at a watch and there was no clock within view as far as I could tell. The only possibilities are a radio call on his net, and I'm sure McClaren have all the radio calls recorded, or some form of secret signal passed by a co-conspirator.

You're right in your assumption, Manic. Obviously you couldn't see what was going on all that well from your vantage point or whatever and I'm guessing that perhaps you haven't seen the follow-up reports yet. Apparantly Alonso's "co-conspirator" may have been his personal trainer, from the looks of things. He was over on the pit wall and Alonso was taking the signals to sit and wait and then to go from him instead of from the mechanics. Ron Dennis collared him afterwards and was seen walking down the pitlane having an "interesting", shall we say, discussion with him.

As I said earlier, though, despite everything we saw with our own eyes (Alonso's tactics, Dennis' anger, him confronting the personal trainer, Lewis' reaction in the press conference, etc., etc.) I bet all we'll probably get out of McLaren is a boring, P.C. "everything is fine, we stand together as a team, nothing to see here, blah, blah, blah" press release or something. :rolleyes:

Such a shame F1 is so sanitised and politically correct these days, isn't it? If it was back in the "good old days" Lewis would have probably done a Mansell or Senna and punched Alonso out of it in the press conference...... and that would have been a whole lot more fun to watch!

heyjude

god's toy wrote:

That pissed me right off, I support McLaren but I hope the Stewards go to town on this one. Schumacher didn't get away with it at Monaco when he stopped on a corner so I dont why Alonzo should.

I don't see why the stewards should get involved now, when they didn't intervene when Alonso nearly ran over the Honda mechanics in the pitlane at the last GP. Besides while it might seem rational to believe that Alonso did it on purpose to deny Hamilton the opportunity to put in another fast lap, the fact is that Alonso only just managed to get across the start line in time himself.

Of course if Alonso did do it on purpose then it may be Ron Dennis and the teams own fault, if Alonso feels as he did earlier in the season, that the team is still favouring Hamilton, then maybe he feels he has to do whatever he can to get an edge for himself. Reassuring statements from the team that everything is dandy may work for PR purposes, but they won't substitute for sorting the problem if one exists.

As regards the possibility of Dennis looking at Alonso's contract, I imagine that Alonso would have no problem getting another drive if McLaren were to sack him, I'm sure Ferrari would be an option with Massa the most likely to lose out.

aidan_dunne

v10 wrote:

From Autosport :
I must say that sounds like the biggest pile of horse$hite I've ever read.

Agreed! Even a blind man could see what Alonso was up to. The only reason Ron Dennis is saying this is damage control. He knows that if the finger of blame is pointed in Alonso's direction in even the slightest then that'll be enough of a reason for the stewards to try and penalise him and put him to the back of the grid or whatever. And with a McLaren 1-2 grid line-up tomorrow, Dennis isn't going to risk that. So he spins it to make it sound as if Hamilton was at fault instead of Alonso in order to keep the 1-2.

But, as you say v10, it's horseshíte, pure and simple! :mad: Sure the mechanics were looking around and everything wondering what the hell was the hold-up with Alonso and they even waved at him a couple of times to go and yet he still sat there! :rolleyes:

I sincerely hope that Karma bites Alonso firmly in the arse tomorrow and he ends up spinning off and out of the race at the first turn or something like that and Lewis goes on to win.

v10

heyjude wrote:

I don't see why the stewards should get involved now.

That comes down to whether or not you think he did it on purpose. If he did, then he broke the rules. The same rule Schumacher was sent to the back of the grid for in Monaco last year.

heyjude wrote:

As regards the possibility of Dennis looking at Alonso's contract, I imagine that Alonso would have no problem getting another drive if McLaren were to sack him, I'm sure Ferrari would be an option with Massa the most likely to lose out.

To be honest thats all crap talk. Neither McLaren would sack Alonso over that nor (I believe) would Ferrari put him alongside Kimi, it just would make no sense.

madmarco245

Deliberate. He looked smug in the cockpit, no moving about, nothing. I just know Hamilton will sneak in some crafty moves on Alonso, which could threaten both their races. I would not be surprised if Kimi, or even Heidfeld won.

Micko23

Well it should be entertaining to see what Alonso tries from 6th but it would have been nice to see the two Mclarens going side by side on lap 1.

Also I think the punishment on Mclaren is harsh. Punish Alonso, fair enough, but not the whole team seeing as Hamilton was the victim.
Anyway it serves to tighten up the whole constructors, maybe that was a factor in the decision!!

EvilMonkey

Also I think the punishment on Mclaren is harsh. Punish Alonso, fair enough, but not the whole team seeing as Hamilton was the victim.
Anyway it serves to tighten up the whole constructors, maybe that was a factor in the decision!!

The way i see it, Alonso was punished for holding up Hamilton, the team was punished for trying to cover it up nothing to do with constructors championship. If Ron Dennis had of punished Alonso then the FIA would of had no reason to intervene. He could have let Pedro De La Rosa take Alonso place for the race but he wanted a guaranteed 1-2 with Ferrari being week this weekend.

v10

Well now at least we know Ron Dennis is a blatant liar.

Anything he says during the whole spygate drama should now also be considered lies. :cool:

greg-h

Well Ferando has lost 5 places which is harsh, I grew up watching f1 sadly I missed Senna v prost but today was just what the sport needs.This penalty is in my view harsh and once again shows how the FIA has little interest in the fans.

steviec

greg-h wrote:

Well Ferando has lost 5 places which is harsh, I grew up watching f1 sadly I missed Senna v prost but today was just what the sport needs.This penalty is in my view harsh and once again shows how the FIA has little interest in the fans.

Very lenient to be honest. The punishment was four times as severe for the same offense at Monaco 06 - and that time it wasn't premeditated where as this looks like it almost certainly was.

But yes, more cheating is just what the sport needs. It's not enough that the championship leaders are proven guilty of stealing the entire technical specification of their number one rivals and allowed to go unpunished. The sport clearly needs yet more corruption.

Manic Moran

god's toy wrote:

Schumacher didn't get away with it at Monaco when he stopped on a corner so I dont why Alonzo should.

I had no great issue with the Schumacher deal as it affected people outside the team. Alo/ham was an internal issue which didn't affect anyone outside of McClaren. As a result, I would consider that to be an internal issue for McClaren to deal with.

NTM

Manic Moran

Bouncing around elsewhere at the Autosport site, I see that Hamilton acknowledges that he didn't obey instructions at the beginning of the session to let Alonso by, making his own conscious decision to work in what he believed his own best interests, which may corroborate Ron Denis' story.

So that's why we had the disagreement, because I didn't agree with it and I didn't do what they wanted me to do."

That said, I think in future they'll have cars staging at the end of the pit lane for the gap, like most other teams are doing.

NTM

Oblomov

Radio communication between driver and 'His minder' are critical, from the moment the driver takes their place in the car. Only critical info will be passed, the Minder is standing on the pit wall looking for a suitable space to release his driver into.It's pointless sending him out just behind a spyker or any possible obstruction.

Was the minder aware of Hamiltons presence, did anyone communicate the situation to the minder. Alonso will only be able to react to instruction and his own limited field of vision.

Without a transcripts of the communication and what was on circuit at the time...

Senior team members will be listening and only certain members will have authority to over ride instructions. If this situation was as extreme as some are trying to promote, other listeners would be rushing out of the woodwork to point the finger.. but all is quiet, at the moment.

Oblomov

McLaren's statement:

"Every effort was made yesterday by the team to maintain our policy of equality; however in the heat of the battle there are occasions when the competitive nature of drivers sees them deviate from the agreed procedures.

"During this intense and frenetic period of qualifying, decisions are necessarily made in seconds to enable the drivers and the team to position their cars on the track at the optimal moment.

"We agree with the stewards, that when the team decided to hold Fernando for 20 seconds there were four cars on the circuit. However, we do not understand the relevance of this observation as the team needed to estimate where all the remaining cars would be in the final minutes of the session. Similarly the team does not agree with the statement of the stewards that the 20 second hold caused Lewis to be impeded. Tensions were undeniably high and the problem at Fernando’s first stop; the desire to enter a clear track and concerns expressed following the fitting of used tyres undoubtedly contributed to the delay in Fernando’s ultimate departure.

"We do not believe that the findings of the stewards and the severe penalty imposed on the team are appropriate, and that our strenuous efforts to maintain the spirit of fair play and equality within the team have been misunderstood.

"We are, however, now only hours away from an important race and are focusing all our efforts on achieving the best possible result for the drivers."

Manic Moran

They did relatively well, still. Only problem is HAM is going to be even more insufferable now.

I was hoping for more of a push from Kimi. Obviously they decided they needed the 'free' points for Ferrari more than the chance of pushing Hamilton out of the way, maybe with a mistake. Massa was fairly cheerful in his little PR spiel in the morning, I think they were expecting a little more out of him than they got. That said, he was also realistic about his chances without rain.
Overall, though, not a good day for the Reds.

NTM

Oblomov

Hmm, it's begining to look as though HAM is not the micest of characters.

He can hold his team mate up but his team mate had better not hold him up.

The whole issue should have been contained within the team.

Frank Bullitt

When Alonso was asked after the race about his future at Mclaren he only said "we'll see", its becoming more apparent that he isnt being treated well at the team, weather that attributed to what he did in qualifying we'll never know.

The next few races are going to be crackin, if kimi keeps up his recent pace then i can see him making up some huge advances for the title.

aidan_dunne

Gintonious wrote:

.....its becoming more apparent that he isnt being treated well at the team, weather that attributed to what he did in qualifying we'll never know.

To be honest, I don't think it's about him not being treated well by the team. I think he's just pissed off that he's not being treated as the clear number 1 in the team, which I think he expected he would be when he joined. He even alluded to his unhappiness in this regard earlier in the season. Couple this to the fact that Hamilton has proven to be a much stronger teammate than he originally thought he would be and is actually out there fighting, winning races and leading the championship instead of just sitting back and acting as a "happy number 2" driver to Alonso and backing him up, I think this is the real reason why Alonso is unhappy.

As a result of all this, I think it's becoming clearer and clearer to see that Hamilton definitely has started to rattle Alonso and the pressure is starting to get to him. Hence he's going to start looking for any little advantage he can get over Hamilton just like in yesterday's qualifying session. If, in addition to track position and results, playing these games also effects Hamilton's psychological mindset as well, then so be it, that's an added bonus for Alonso, I guess.

Let's face it, Alonso's not the first driver to try such tactics and he sure as hell won't be the last. Just makes things a lot more interesting for all of us watching, that's all!

Dcully

Hamilton seems to be mr nice guy when all is well and infront of the cameras.
Ive a sneakey suspicion he isnt as nice as he seems.

Alonso is being harshly treated by mclaren and the stewards imo.

Seth Brundle

Well it looks like Alonso is quitting the team - http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2642681,00.html

Manic Moran

Household 6 has opined that had Lewis shut his mouth and followed the official McClaren line instead of complaining about the hold-up, that the Stewards may not have taken such an interest, and McClaren may not have lost all the points they would otherwise have earned.

NTM

Ghost Train

I think the way it turned out, alonso and the team being punished, was probably the right thing to happen.

The way I see it, hamilton chose not to let alonso pass at the start of qualifying, not sure I understand why the team would want this exactly(is it slight favouritism for alonso like hamilton might think), hamilton probably should have done what the team wanted and complained after. I think alonso could see what was happening at the end of qualifying, that the team were holding him up to let him get his lap in as late as possible and that by delaying by the time it would take for hamiltons tyres to be changed he'd possibly stop hamilton getting another run in. I can't see any other reason alonso would sit there so long once the lolipop was raised

The team tried to protect alonso and hamilton, by saying it was the teams mistake, which didn't seem to explain it, so their punishment for lieing seems okay, even though they also suffer for alonso being shoved back the grid. While hamilton apparently started the situation, what alonso did was worse, and deserved the grid penalty. Although would have been nice to seem them both race at the front after what happened

It's going to be interesting to see how it developes, not a good situation for the team, but maybe the team will just have to let them at it and hope the competition makes the two drivers do the best they can. Was surprised with the reports of hamiltons outburst on the radio, really shows a different side to his relationship with ron dennis

edit: reading a bit more, maybe seems a bit harsh on the team to have points taken away, as their explaination for their actions seems reasonable, but guess there must have been some doubt with the stewart's

pburns

Hamilton seems to me a false character. He plays to the image of the boy-next-door with the perma-smile and cheesy soundbites ('I'm living the dream...' etc.). His failure to obey team orders might be just about understandable but the potty-mouthed hissy fit shows him up as a spoiled brat.

It's like little Charlie telling Willy Wonka to stick his Golden Ticket up his a***!

I'm surprised also that over 50% of those polled (at time of writing) on the ITV F1 site (a British site lest we forget) nominate Alonso as 'Man of the Race'. Make of that what you will...

Oblomov

It should never have become public knowledge, this has happened many times and with no more gripe than a kick of the tyres..

Rent a gob, lewis wanted pole regardless. Too much fame too quickly.

But telling your mentor and financier to .. well, leaves a little to be desired.

Ghost Train

Ficus wrote:

yet before Ferrari started their testing and before anyone had an available spot to observe their new car/chassis, Mclaren wrote to fia to ask about the flexible floor they knew that ferrari were running. A bit of a coincidence dont you think, especially now that Ron Dennis has all but said Ferrari cheated in the Australian GP in melbourne.

Ron Dennis has said that Stepney approached mcclaren and told them about the flexible floor before the australian gp, this was sort of explained in his latest letter to the fia/ferrari a few days ago, and i guess was what they explained at the case. And wheather true or not was a totally seperate incident from the ferrari documents

Ficus wrote:

...yet, when it later came to light that Alonso was under the instruction of his race engineer, than that the person who was in control of the situation, and alonso did right to stay put and listen to him.
But the way the fia jumped in and imposed a penalty on alonso for following team orders, i really think it was both unjustified and unwarrented. It also robbed the fans of a great race that will no doubt help decide the championship. I think in a post schumacher era, where race attendances are down along with viewing figures, then the fia should be clued into this and not jumping into team related issues and throwing around silly penalties at a moments notice.

http://timesonline.typepad.com/formula_one/2007/08/that-decision-i.html
From the description in the link above, the delay after the lollipop had gone up alonso said was because he was asking about the tyres, not being told to wait by his engineer.

ednwireland

Oblomov wrote:

Radio communication between driver and 'His minder' are critical, from the moment the driver takes their place in the car. Only critical info will be passed, the Minder is standing on the pit wall looking for a suitable space to release his driver into.It's pointless sending him out just behind a spyker or any possible obstruction..

doubt that very much mclaren were the first to have a computer system which maps all the cars on the track in fact remember a guy switching off the screen when a camera was pointing at it a couple of years ago its a lot more sophisticated than a minder standing on the pit wall.
dont see why stewards got involved could have made a boring race much more interesting
cant wait to see alonso and hamilton driving each other off the road now thats racing

Oblomov

The larger the team the larger the screen... the outline of the circuit and the small moving symbols clearly identify the cars, its been in use for some time by most of the leading formulas..

The array of screens both in the pits and on the pit wall dictate the position of the driver's "minder"

trendkill

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_feature_item.php?fes_art_id=32402

A very intriguing view on it... but dead right, Ferrari in Monaco 06 didnt have their constuctor points taken away from them for that race.

Plus, isnt the majority of **** McLaren are going through a result of Lewis. Monaco this year, in the press conference, after the race he said that "I will be demanding an explanation about my strategy"... which led to that FIA investigation, and now Hungary. There's a win at all cost about him, and before long, I reckon Ron will give him the boot if the damage to McLarens reputation continues. Prost wasnt happy about Senna being his teammate and complained publicly about Mclaren, well until he found himself in a Ferrari complaining again.

Ghost Train

looks like mclaren will appeal the loss of points, another story line to follow, i think they've a good chance of getting the points

i think mclaren have worked and supported hamilton so long the team wouldn't like to see him leave, he's "their" driver as such and don't think they'd let him go too easily. Would also be surprised if alonsos 3 year contract would be cut short too, top team and top driver together, unless mclaren feel he's damaging the team and alonsos chances, or alonso feels the english team is going to give the english driver a better car or more support

anyway for the moment it's good to see two top drivers in a top team, with equal machinery trying get the best of each other.

Manic Moran

Note on another board reported that Ron threw down his headphones in disgust because he just had an argument on the radio with Hamilton who had used some uncivilised language towards him.

Worth what you paid for it.

NTM

thegoth

Lewis should not have help Alonso up in qualifyinn. Full stop. Alonso was right to hold in up in the pits in return for this.

Technically speaking Alonso should have gotten a penalty as he blantly help up Lewis, while Lewis was much more discrete. Really, a bit of common sense and let McLaren deal with it