Mercury-free vaccines?

MichaelR

I would like to use mercury-free vaccones for my child. Are those available in Ireland?

(These are the vaccines shipped in one-shot ampules as opposed to multi-shot)

Anney

I give children's vaccines regularly & have never heard such a request. The only vaccine I know of that can be given in monovalent components (i.e. separate vaccines versus combined) is the MMR.
It's recommended to have your child vaccinated with the ones provided & recommended by the state, as they're well researched & extremely safe.
However, the MMR is given in separate doses by a doctor somewhere in Dundalk, is less effective, must be paid for, involves the child receiving at least 3 injections compared to 1, followed by blood tests.
Does your child have a confirmed mercury allergy?

tallaght01

Michael, I understand your concern about mercury. It's not pleasant to think that you might be putting mercury into your child's body. However, the amount in the few vacines that still contain mercury is very small, and has never been shown to cause problems. However, these are decisions that every parent has to make themselves. In the UK where I work, I don't think our vacines contain mercury (in the form of thiomersal..spelling?) anymore,as it was initially only put in the vaccines as a preservative. But the vaccines are now formulated in such a way that they don't need preservatives. I don't know what the case is in Ireland.

This has already been discussed at length in another thread though. I'll have a look and post the link for you if I can find it.

tallaght01

Here's a link to a previous thread on the issue, mate.
There's a lot of bickering, so you should just try and sift out the actual fact in there. On the second page, I've posted a link to a website written by some very good docs in New Zealand, which summarises the vaccine controversy pretty well. Have a read, and see what you
think.


http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055077967



Hope it's helpful.

MichaelR

Anney wrote:

I give children's vaccines regularly & have never heard such a request. The only vaccine I know of that can be given in monovalent components (i.e. separate vaccines versus combined) is the MMR.
It's recommended to have your child vaccinated with the ones provided & recommended by the state, as they're well researched & extremely safe.
However, the MMR is given in separate doses by a doctor somewhere in Dundalk, is less effective, must be paid for, involves the child receiving at least 3 injections compared to 1, followed by blood tests.
Does your child have a confirmed mercury allergy?

The child had allergic reactions to vaccination in the past, which is why they have been suspended for two years. (It was in a different country, where the Hepatitis B vaccine is in the schedule). Moreover the child is allergic in general.

Some vaccines are indeed a necessary risk. Thimerosal is not.

The big question is not whether the vaccines are polyvalent, but whether they contain Thimerosal. Ideally I'd just like to know the brand and manufacturer of the vaccine - would the GP give me that information?

P.S. I am not planning MMR at all - see no benefits (for a boy). Polio and DT are a different matter; I am still thinking whether the 5 in 1 is a good idea (he's past the age when whopping cough is a big danger) but may go for it anyway.

N8

Thimerosol

Thimerosol is a mercury based product used in vaccinations along with formaldehyde as a preservative. The WHO states there is no safe level of mercury in the body.

A major US study revealed at the Vaccine Safety Datalink Conference in 2000 which was the result of collaboration between the CDC National Immunisation program and four HMOs examined 110,000 children and concluded that there was a linear relationship between exposure to thimerosol and disorders where upon babies cried uncontrollably and were fretful, more so than in normal babies i.e., those without neurological injuries. They also found the same linear relationship with dose and effect between thimerosal and ADD and other neurodevelopmental disorders.

Thimerosal containing vaccines were withdrawn in New Zealand the same year. The European Agency for the Evaluation of Medicinal Products (EAEMP) recommended a switch to mercury free vaccines in 1999. They were not withdrawn in the UK until 2005.

Just as an interesting footnote to this the same recommendation from US regulatory agencies that mercury be removed as quickly as possible from US licensed vaccines because of the concerns about the adverse effects of mercury on brain development is not recommended for vaccines given to children in third world or developing countries.


Money you just gotta love it.

tallaght01

Michael, all of N8s references can be substantiated on any good rebel chiropracter website

John

MichaelR wrote:

P.S. I am not planning MMR at all - see no benefits (for a boy).

So you'd rather they had the risk of getting sick, feeling miserable and missing school as well as compromising herd immunity than subject them to a non-existent risk?

I could be wrong but the rare complications with the three diseases covered by the MMR are not as rare as the complications (I'm not even going near autism, as far as I'm concerned that is completely false) from the vaccine itself. Mumps can cause sterility in men, measles in later life can be seriously debilitating and although rubella won't affect a man in the same way as a pregnant woman but surely stemming the spread of the disease is worth the vaccination?

metrovelvet

What is the source of the poison used in vaccination? For example, for hepatitus B, do they just get it off some guy of the street?

And honestly, who would feel safe injecting mercury or formaldehyde into a baby?

And does anyone know if US vaccines use this crap also? And given that it is all about money... do they use the cheapest materials possible in the injections?

N8

tallaght01 wrote:

Michael, all of N8s references can be substantiated on any good rebel chiropracter website

nice try Tallaght01 perhaps respect the fact that others have well founded educated opinions and that yours is not infallible. The Thimersol piece came from the BBC and pretty much backs up what you said earlier about UK vaccines no longer containing mercury.

I did quote another UK site that is run by a chiropractor its www.vaccination.co.uk - well worth a visit.

Metrovelvet by poison you probably mean virus etc - in at least some cases and I will have to look this up the 'poison' comes from sources like monkey pus. But hey that runs second to the use of aborted foetus material in the making of MMR.

Injecting thimersol, aluminium or formaldehyde comes second for me to the direct injection of foreign DNA never mind the moral and ethical questions but hey that never slowed those making a buck.

As for the money... there is no profit in not vaccinating a child which means those promoting non vaccination do not have a vested interest. I think this is well worth staing another way…..

Those promoting vaccinations have a vested interest.

Herd immunity - a load of bull.

Measles epidemics that continue to occur consistently in fully vaccinated children. We know that today, in areas of the US, with a 98%+ vaccination status due to enforced vaccination, epidemics of measles still occur at three to four year intervals, unabated and uninfluenced by vaccination. Worse still is the appearance of atypical measles which you didn’t mention, which exposes children in later life to dangers of chronic diseases, including cancer.

Hey great attempt at trying to scare the OP into vaccinating his child but after reading this, vaccination starts to look more like the lesser option rather your child getting sick, feeling miserable and missing a few days at school.

The assertion about the comparison of complications John – have you figures and a source? It sounds bogus.


Michael you gotta realise you are asking medics a question that queries the ‘holy grail’ – it’s a hornets nest. I am not sure whether or not vaccines in Ireland contain thimersol or not and I doubt if your GP does either. If you want to vaccinate and want it thimersol free you’re probably best taking a trip up North and getting the shots there.

John

N8 wrote:

Herd immunity - a load of bull.

Measles epidemics that continue to occur consistently in fully vaccinated children. We know that today, in areas of the US, with a 98%+ vaccination status due to enforced vaccination, epidemics of measles still occur at three to four year intervals, unabated and uninfluenced by vaccination. Worse still is the appearance of atypical measles which you didn’t mention, which exposes children in later life to dangers of chronic diseases, including cancer.

References? What about smallpox then, did that just disappear by chance around the same time that vaccinations were produced? How is herd immunity bull?

The assertion about the comparison of complications John – have you figures and a source? It sounds bogus.

Not on me, I'd have to go back through my immunology notes and books which have been safely stowed away at home. I did say I could be wrong so if you can find anything to defuse my point, fire away. I'd rather be proved wrong and learn than be misinformed. The measles in later life being deliberating is true, just ask anyone who has ever gotten measles in middle age or later. Here is just one paper from pubmed published last year discussing the relation between mumps and male sterility, here's a link to the abstract.

As for autism, any reports I've seen linking it with vaccination have been fairly flawed. Most don't mention that autism presents in children at around the same age vaccinations begin, whether they are vaccinated or not. I read somewhere very recently about how the removal of mercury compounds in vaccinations has not lead to a reduction in autism diagnoses and the numbers of children with autism are still climbing. Another factor in the increases in autism diagnoses is that:
a) they describe autism spectrum disorders, which is everything from barely abnormal to the stereotyped autism that is presented in the press.
and
b) the psychological tests for autism are becoming more sensitive so kids who are borderline might have been misdiagnosed as not being autistic in years gone by.

While I don't have references for these observations, I'm fairly certain of them as my girlfriend works in educational psychology and autism is an interest of hers.

Michael you gotta realise you are asking medics a question that queries the ‘holy grail’ – it’s a hornets nest.

Michael, you gotta realise that there are some quacks online that will try and push their own agendas as they mistrust the "medics". Consult your GP, the Dept. of Health and an independent third party for information with figures and pay more attention to them rather than us online.

pharmacien

metrovelvet wrote:

What is the source of the poison used in vaccination? For example, for hepatitus B, do they just get it off some guy of the street?

And honestly, who would feel safe injecting mercury or formaldehyde into a baby?

And does anyone know if US vaccines use this crap also? And given that it is all about money... do they use the cheapest materials possible in the injections?

I've unsuccessfully suppressed the urge not to reply to such an uninformed post!!!!

Poison????? There is no "poison" in vaccines. Obviously, you must have quite an odd intrepretation of what a poison is!!

I would feel totally safe giving my children vaccinations. A more pertitent question would be, would you feel safe not immunising your children, and therefore leaving them exposed to various infections, that will adversely affect their health. The negligable risk is overwhelming outweighed by the benefit.

Vaccines used in the U.S. and here, do not contain any "crap" at all.

Vaccines, as with all medicines, contain drugs and excipients, to ensure that the product is safe, stable and efficacious. If "cheap" materials are used that do not fufill these criteria, then the product is not licensed. Simple as. End of story

DrIndy

This debate WILL stay scientific or it will be closed.

NO inflammatory comments are permitted without clear substantiation and correct references. These references may not be a further opinion piece by a different author without clear data to substantiate their opinion.

Any messing and there will be bans.

pharmacien

N8 wrote:

The Thimersol piece came from the BBC and pretty much backs up what you said earlier about UK vaccines no longer containing mercury.

The BBC say that!!!!! Oh in that case, it has to be true. I've obviously missed the large team of informed health care professionals who critically appraise papers that work for the BBC. It's not as if a pharmacist/doctor/BMJ/NEJM/Lancet etc would have a better idea than the BBC

As per the last post, some proper evidence would be nice

N8 wrote:

there is no profit in not vaccinating a child which means those promoting non vaccination do not have a vested interest. I think this is well worth staing another way…..

As someone championing non-vaccination, you don't have a vested interest???

If only

There certainly seems to be a vested interest to me. The Luddite religious vested interest:

N8 wrote:

But hey that runs second to the use of aborted foetus material in the making of MMR.

N8 wrote:

... the direct injection of foreign DNA never mind the moral and ethical questions but hey that never slowed those making a buck.

Easy to be sitting on the side pontificating about the evils of potentially life saving medications. Never mind the morals of not vaccinating. Shame it was ever invented. Smallpox and polio were never that bad, were they

And for the evidence. Source is the SPC for Priorix (GSK's MMR vaccine - Date of last revision: 3 Sept 2004 Date published: 5 August 2007). This is exactly what the vaccine contains:

Vaccine: The vaccine contains the following amino acids: L-alanine,

L-arginine, glycine, L-histidine, L-isoleucine, L-leucine, L-lysine HC1,

L-methionine, L-phenylalanine, L-proline, L-serine, L-threonine,

L-tryptophan, L-tyrosine, L-valine, L-aspartic acid, L-cysteine, L-cystine,

L-hydroxproline, and, lactose, mannitol, sorbitol. The vaccine may also contain residual amounts of neomycin 25 micrograms maximum.

Diluent: Water for injections.

Each 0.5 ml dose of the reconstituted vaccine contains:

- not less than 103.0 CCID50* of the Schwarz measles

- not less than 103.7 CCID50 of the RIT 4385 mumps, and

- - not less than 103.0 CCID50 of the Wistar RA 27/3 rubella virus strains.

No mercury, no thiomersal. But don't let that stand in the way of scaremongering

tallaght01

Yea I'm pretty sure we got rid of the thimererororosol stuff a while ago, because it wasn't needed as a preservative.

I for one am not entering into this debate again, seeing as last time N8 couldn't provide a single reputable paper to back up anything he said, and accused us all of trying to poision babies. He also refused to tell us what he did for a living, or in which field his expertise lies. All he does is refers to chiropracters, who have never vaccinated anybody in their lives, and aren't rigorously trained in the interpretation of data, like scientists and doctors.

And it's hard to argue with the BBC, who are of course home of the MRSA "virus" headlines.

With regards to DrIndy's post above, I'm usually against bannings. However, when N8 is giving people advice based on opinion, it's fair enough. I think if this continues, he should be banned. He is disregarding the advice of the World Health Organisation, who describe vaccination as "the bigest influence on population health after running water". He is, essentially, giving medical advice that contradicts virtually all well informed medical reasoning.

The disease he seems to think have been unimpeded by the vaccne programme are in fact rarely seen since the introduction of vaccines (I'm a paediatrician and I struggle to diagnose measles nowadays!).

And how he can dimiss herd immunity as hogwash is beyond me. The WHO certainly disagree.

Michael, I have no vested interest in doing anything but protecting the wellbeing of babies. Pharmaceutical companies try and sell the likes of me an DrIndy rubbish all the time. We don't buy into it, unless we have solid data (most of the time anyway). We're not as easily fooled by drug companies as N8 would like you to think.

pharmacien

As it's a single use dose, to be re-constituted immediately before use, there is no need for a preservative (same principle as with minims [the eye drops - i don't mean mims the book!!!!]).

metrovelvet

^ Well if you dont want to call them poisons or toxins or whatever, [seriously you should look at the symbol for medicine, two snakes - the whole concept is that poison is cure] where do they come from?

Where do they get the hepatitus B that they put into the injections?

John

It would have come from a hepatitis patient way back when. These days it's not pure hepatitis B virus used in the vaccines. They have cleaved off a protein that the body uses to recognise the virus and form an immune response. The vaccine itself is not pathogenic but stimulates the immune system as if it was pathogenic.

pharmacien

metrovelvet wrote:

Well if you dont want to call them poisons or toxins or whatever,

I don't call them poisons or toxins, because they aren't. How about an antigen (because that's what it is!)

metrovelvet wrote:

seriously you should look at the symbol for medicine, two snakes - the whole concept is that poison is cure] where do they come from?

I'm very familiar with the symbols for pharmacy and medicine. But the clue is in the word - SYMBOL - it's a symbol, a sign. You cannot claim that vaccines are poisons, because there's a snake in a medicine symbol!!!!

I think you might be getting a little confused with the non-science of homeopathy. A dictionary definition (how about Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary)

" a system of medical practice that treats a disease especially by the administration of minute doses of a remedy that would in healthy persons produce symptoms similar to those of the disease"

In other words, what will harm you will cure you, which is the opposite approach to allopathic medicine

N8

tallaght01 wrote:

Yea I'm pretty sure we got rid of the thimererororosol stuff a while ago, because it wasn't needed as a preservative.

What’s this ‘we’ business? Tallaght01 it was neither the medical community nor the pharmaceutical industry that demanded thimerosol be removed from vaccines it was politicians based on evidence.

tallaght01 wrote:

I for one am not entering into this debate again, seeing as last time N8 couldn't provide a single reputable paper to back up anything he said, and accused us all of trying to poision babies.

I did not accuse you of poisoning babies and the truth was I lost interest with a slanging match that was starting to resemble a school yard spat based upon ‘my mummy told me they are good for me…’

tallaght01 wrote:

He also refused to tell us what he did for a living, or in which field his expertise lies.

Sh*t I have to identify myself now?? Metrovelvet are you a medic?? Get over yourself Tallaght01

tallaght01 wrote:

All he does is refers to chiropracters, who have never vaccinated anybody in their lives, and aren't rigorously trained in the interpretation of data, like scientists and doctors.

I hope they never do vaccinate and your assertion about their training displays an arrogance ignorant of their profession. Again www.vaccination.co.uk check out this chiropractors interpretation of the evidence. Also check out a book by Viera Schiebner - look her up for some scientific interpretation of data…

tallaght01 wrote:

With regards to DrIndy's post above, I'm usually against bannings. However, when N8 is giving people advice based on opinion, it's fair enough. I think if this continues, he should be banned.

Wow if I don’t agree with the rest of you I should be banned? LOL

tallaght01 wrote:

He is disregarding the advice of the World Health Organisation, who describe vaccination as "the bigest influence on population health after running water". He is, essentially, giving medical advice that contradicts virtually all well informed medical reasoning.

Hey tallaght01 did you know the WHO states a GPO would need 1800 hours of retraining to become a chiropractor?

Let me be clear I am not giving ‘medical advice’ – I don’t think it is allowed in this forum. However I am well educated believe me and I am well informed regarding vaccination. There are many people who disagree with vaccination better educated than you or I and with more information at hand too. Remember this quote?

‘There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good.’

Dr J Anthony Morris Former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

As for ‘medical’ reasoning – is that different from logical reasoned reasoning? Is this from a profession that together with the pharmaceutical industry have presided over a worldwide failure in healthcare that continues to suck up the tax dollar at an alarming rate?

tallaght01 wrote:

I'm a paediatrician and I struggle to diagnose measles nowadays

Are you joking?

tallaght01 wrote:

Michael, I have no vested interest in doing anything but protecting the wellbeing of babies.

No one would question your intention. In fairness nor would I nor have I.

tallaght01 wrote:

Pharmaceutical companies try and sell the likes of me an DrIndy rubbish all the time. We don't buy into it, unless we have solid data (most of the time anyway).

Solid data from whom – pharmaceutical funded trials? And when exactly do you buy into it without the solid data?

pharmacien wrote:

And for the evidence. Source is the SPC for Priorix (GSK's MMR vaccine - Date of last revision: 3 Sept 2004 Date published: 5 August 2007). This is exactly what the vaccine contains:

Quote:
Vaccine: The vaccine contains the following amino acids: L-alanine,
L-arginine, glycine, L-histidine, L-isoleucine, L-leucine, L-lysine HC1,
L-methionine, L-phenylalanine, L-proline, L-serine, L-threonine,
L-tryptophan, L-tyrosine, L-valine, L-aspartic acid, L-cysteine, L-cystine,
L-hydroxproline, and, lactose, mannitol, sorbitol. The vaccine may also contain residual amounts of neomycin 25 micrograms maximum.
Diluent: Water for injections.
Each 0.5 ml dose of the reconstituted vaccine contains:
- not less than 103.0 CCID50* of the Schwarz measles
- not less than 103.7 CCID50 of the RIT 4385 mumps, and
- - not less than 103.0 CCID50 of the Wistar RA 27/3 rubella virus strains.

No mercury, no thiomersal. But don't let that stand in the way of scaremongering.

And for the evidence, or lack of. According to the vaccine manufacturers own product inserts, most vaccines have not been ‘evaluated or tested for carcinogenic potential, mutagenic potential, or for impairment of fertility’ or ‘impairment of reproductive capacity.’ Was this one?

pharmacien wrote:

In other words, what will harm you will cure you, which is the opposite approach to allopathic medicine

Now this is a crock of bull. The opposite of allopathy is vitalism.


Personally I have no agenda and I can agree to disagree. It is a pity the sentiment was a bit more common. (do any of you remember the medics are arrogant thread?)

I couldn’t care less if I am banned from this forum or not. However if I was, it certainly would prove a point.

There are many vested interests and many educated opinions that differ on the issue of vaccination.

However, vaccination is a personal decision to make and should remain so, with precautions to be taken either way.

If a decision is taken not to vaccinate they must make sure their children are healthy and robust and are not a risk to those who are not.

If a decision is taken to vaccinate and the parents would like to minimise any risk of complication they should be given the choice to do so through the availability of single dose vaccinations, thimersol free vaccines and information on minor allergic reactions that upon another vaccination could result in more major reactions.

Life is not risk free nor are vaccinations.

Good night

tallaght01

N8 wrote:

What’s this ‘we’ business? Tallaght01 it was neither the medical community nor the pharmaceutical industry that demanded thimerosol be removed from vaccines it was politicians based on evidence.



I did not accuse you of poisoning babies and the truth was I lost interest with a slanging match that was starting to resemble a school yard spat based upon ‘my mummy told me they are good for me…’



Sh*t I have to identify myself now?? Metrovelvet are you a medic?? Get over yourself Tallaght01



I hope they never do vaccinate and your assertion about their training displays an arrogance ignorant of their profession. Again www.vaccination.co.uk check out this chiropractors interpretation of the evidence. Also check out a book by Viera Schiebner - look her up for some scientific interpretation of data…



Wow if I don’t agree with the rest of you I should be banned? LOL



Hey tallaght01 did you know the WHO states a GPO would need 1800 hours of retraining to become a chiropractor?

Let me be clear I am not giving ‘medical advice’ – I don’t think it is allowed in this forum. However I am well educated believe me and I am well informed regarding vaccination. There are many people who disagree with vaccination better educated than you or I and with more information at hand too. Remember this quote?

‘There is a great deal of evidence to prove that immunisation of children does more harm than good.’

Dr J Anthony Morris Former Chief Vaccine Control Officer, US Food and Drug Administration (FDA).

As for ‘medical’ reasoning – is that different from logical reasoned reasoning? Is this from a profession that together with the pharmaceutical industry have presided over a worldwide failure in healthcare that continues to suck up the tax dollar at an alarming rate?





Are you joking?





No one would question your intention. In fairness nor would I nor have I.




Solid data from whom – pharmaceutical funded trials? And when exactly do you buy into it without the solid data?




And for the evidence, or lack of. According to the vaccine manufacturers own product inserts, most vaccines have not been ‘evaluated or tested for carcinogenic potential, mutagenic potential, or for impairment of fertility’ or ‘impairment of reproductive capacity.’ Was this one?



Now this is a crock of bull. The opposite of allopathy is vitalism.


Personally I have no agenda and I can agree to disagree. It is a pity the sentiment was a bit more common. (do any of you remember the medics are arrogant thread?)

I couldn’t care less if I am banned from this forum or not. However if I was, it certainly would prove a point.

There are many vested interests and many educated opinions that differ on the issue of vaccination.

However, vaccination is a personal decision to make and should remain so, with precautions to be taken either way.

If a decision is taken not to vaccinate they must make sure their children are healthy and robust and are not a risk to those who are not.

If a decision is taken to vaccinate and the parents would like to minimise any risk of complication they should be given the choice to do so through the availability of single dose vaccinations, thimersol free vaccines and information on minor allergic reactions that upon another vaccination could result in more major reactions.

Life is not risk free nor are vaccinations.

Good night

I was going to write a reply to this now, but actually it's going to take me days to trawl through all the data that N8 has provided as evidence, so it might have to wait

btw, if a GP would need to train for another 1800 hours to become amechanic...does that make a mechanic more of an expert on medicine or vaccines than the GP? Just curious?

DrIndy

I think this debate has gone on long enough, I am sorry to say I am closing it now.

N8, your opinions are welcomed, but your inflammatory tone is not. You must substantiate all claims when you go forward in a scientific debate with science. Denouncing decade upon decade of scientific fact through disbelief has no place in these threads. There is a conspiracy forum on this board for this.