Curious British Army rank

Snickers Man

While researching some family history I have come across the rank of Lance Serjeant (spelt in that way with a "j") which puzzles me.

I thought the non-commissioned ranks in the British Army went:

Private
Lance Corporal (one stripe)
Corporal (two stripes)
Sergeant (three stripes)

So what the hell's a Lance Serjeant? And how many stripes would they have worn?

Could it be a special rank for guardsmen? (The person in question was in the Irish Guards) In the same way that the artillery's equivalent of a corporal was called a bombardier etc.

Any info appreciated.

BKtje

Quick google and i found this:

In the Footguards, they undertake the role of Section Commander (normally a post filled by a Corporal in other infantry units) but wear three stripes and are members of the Sergeants Mess.

Not sure about their role in WW1 but am aware that they were in other units including the Staffords

and

A Lance Serjeant was an appointment rather than a rank, which is why it is not usually shown on a MIC. I believe it was held by a corporal who carried out the duties of a sergeant and wore sergeant's stripes, but who still received the pay of a corporal. It think it was probably a step towards promotion. It differed from 'Acting Sergeant', who would have been paid at the higher rate.

Dunno how accurate this is however.

Manic Moran

The British have some very unique traditions in their units. There's at least one regiment (Cavalry of some sort, I believe) with no sergeants of any rank whatsoever in it: The senior enlisted soldier is the Regimental Corporal-Major. The rationale is apparently along the lines that sergeant translated as 'servant', and the NCOs of that unit decided they were nobody's bloody servant.

NTM

Sgt Slaughter

Not sure about for other units but in the Irish Guards anyway the rank of Lance Sergeant is the same as Corporal, there are no Corporals in the Irish Guards, you wear the three stripes and are a Lance Sergeant, you are part of the Sergeants Mess but you have to leave early as you are not a full Sergeant, must get confusing for people not from the unit though as there is nothing in the rank marking to distinguish between a Sergeant and a Lance Sergeant as far as i am aware.

Hagar

Just as an aside, I believe that Irish Army sergeants had only two stripes up until the time we started sending troops on UN missions. They were changed to the more universal 3 stripes because of the confusion it caused when dealing with other armies' ncos who thought our sergeants were only corporals.

testicle

Hagar wrote:

Just as an aside, I believe that Irish Army sergeants had only two stripes up until the time we started sending troops on UN missions. They were changed to the more universal 3 stripes because of the confusion it caused when dealing with other armies' ncos who thought our sergeants were only corporals.

Correct. We also had a Cpl, 1 star and 2 star. Here are the rank markings in question.

http://www.irishmilitaryinsignia.com/flash/catagory/army/ranks/flash_arm_rankmarkings_enlisted_1949.htm

On the spelling of Sergeant/Serjeant... Serjeant was the official spelling until 1946 or thereabouts. If you've been in the NCOs Mess, West - "Super Mess" in the Curragh, the building that used to stand there had a big sign over the door saying "Serjeant's Mess" - this sign now resides in the new mess just outside the door to the bar.