Wage Question

redcar

Ok sorry if this is in the wrong place, but its late and I am really tired, sorry.

My question is this. I work in a shop and when we close it takes about 10-15 minutes from actually shutting the doors to us actually leaving, what with counting tills etc. etc.. But my manager has decided that we are not going to be paid for these 10-15 minutes we spend in the shop closing it. We are only getting paid till the shop actually closes.

Now we are told under no circumstances to close the shop early, and if we were to leave dead on closing time we would get an official warning because end of day duties were not carried out.

Now this isnt a sole trader I work for but a large well known company and this is standard policy across all shops. But I want to know, is this in breach of any law and are we entitled to this pay and have a right to demand it?

Time Magazine

Xtra-vision, perchance?

Dunno, tbh.

AARRRGH

I worked in a book shop for a little while, and there was a similar policy.

The way I would handle it is I would do all the closing up stuff before the shop closes, so the only thing left to do was to count the money in the till. I was normally able to get out 5 - 10 minutes after closing time.

It did piss me off too.

I would imagine there are other problems in your shop due to the manager you have.

I guess what you need to do is weigh up the pros and cons of the job, and decide is it worth sticking around.

I'm not aware of any law which says people must be paid for every minute of work they do.

What does your work contract say?

subway

work up a routine, youll get out very quickly if you want to.
i could cash up a till in about 2 minutes in my day

the key is to rough count everything about a half hour from closing,
total up all the credit cards receipts etc on a piece of scrap paper,
then when you close you only need to add one or 2 more on before putting the total into the cash sheet.

for the till.
the trick is to bag as much coin as possible.
if it cant be bagged, stack it.
stack every coin in the till in little colums of 10 and have nothing in the till.
when you have to count the coin then you only need count the columms.

no shop ive ever worked in paid for closing up time.

redcar

Ibid wrote:

Xtra-vision, perchance?

Dunno, tbh.

Yep tis Xtra-vision.


I will be honest this has only pissed me off me recently because my manager took me aside very randomly and told me she will not pay me after 11 or anyone else because she doesnt know what we are doing, yet she will pay the people who do the day shift because she is there and knows why they are there when their shift ends after 6.

Like I have tried my best this week and 11.10 is my best time, but at the weekend when we close the shop is a ****ing bombsite, and we are expected to have it totally clean and ready for the morning.

Ah I know I won't get paid, but I just hate the way that company treat staff.

Nody

redcar wrote:

I will be honest this has only pissed me off me recently because my manager took me aside very randomly and told me she will not pay me after 11 or anyone else because she doesnt know what we are doing, yet she will pay the people who do the day shift because she is there and knows why they are there when their shift ends after 6.

No naming and shaming Redcar so you better remove the company name.

Having said that suggest a fixed amount then say 15 min or 10 min extra. She can time the people who's leaving at 6 and then use that same duration for you guys. You're still going to be down slightly on time overall but it is better then nothing.

Time Magazine

No naming or shaming, but with 2 years' experience of working with Xtra-vision I can vouch that this occurs in nearly ever store in the country. The company won't deny that staff don't get out until ten past or later, either. Of course we're not saying that it's company policy, that they're being negligent, or that they're taking advantage of staff though.

We used to lock the door at five to, redcar. That way we get five minutes to tidy up and also get customers complaining. When customers complain and the DM realises the shop is losing money, you're in a better position to chat about getting paid for those extra fifteen minutes.

I honestly doubt it's going to work out for you though.

Newaglish

Nody wrote:

Having said that suggest a fixed amount then say 15 min or 10 min extra. She can time the people who's leaving at 6 and then use that same duration for you guys. You're still going to be down slightly on time overall but it is better then nothing.

That's a very fair idea and might work in a smaller shop, though if it's some sort of "company policy" it might be pretty inflexible.

Having said that, my advice would be to grin and bear it, it is only ten minutes after all, and I don't know if the hassle and conflict would be worth the extra 2/3 euro a day.

You could always try sucking up to your manager a little bit (I know, I know, terrible thing to do) and then approaching them about it! You'd be surprised how lenient people will be when you're friends with them. (Or when they think you're friends, muaha ahaha)

punkerrandboy

Redcar, the general legal answer to your question regarding the extra 15 mins per night is that you should have a legitimate expectation to be paid for it and to take it one step futher you could expect to get overtime at time and a half if you have worked a full week (but that is probably beyond what is possible in your situation).

The real question is how do you get a reluctant boss to pay it - after all if you are willing to work for nothing you'll never be idle as they say. If I were in your shoes and was working for a well known brand name I would contact Mandate (the trade union for retail workers), join them and get their advice. Or you could as a group of workers in your outlet get together and agree that you will bring this up as an issue collectively. Your contract (if you have one) will say what your hours are and even it does not specify it the bottom line is that you should not, nor can your employer expect you to, work for free.

Demonique

redcar wrote:

Now we are told under no circumstances to close the shop early, and if we were to leave dead on closing time we would get an official warning because end of day duties were not carried out.

And quite right too, if the opening times of a stop is listed as 9am-12am then the shop should stay open until 12am, no excuses.

I went to the Athlone branch of Xtra-Vision at 11.45pm to rent a video, the door was locked, but the closing time on the door for that day was clearly marked as midnight. The staff were chatting behind the counter and when I knocked on the door they looked up, but didn't open and mouthed 'we're closed'. I knocked again and pointed to the opening times, but they refused to open up. Stupid cnuts.
Their manager wasn't happy when I went in the next day and complained about them, I also rang head office to complain

wmpdd3

Demonique wrote:

And quite right too, if the opening times of a stop is listed as 9am-12am then the shop should stay open until 12am, no excuses.

Have you not read the post, the stores are close the door because staff do not get to leave when the store is shut. I have worked in high st fashion for 6 years where a normal day is 9 hours. If I am lucky, the I will serve the last customer closing time and I will get out 20 mins later. More often than not I will have 5 customers in the shop a minute before we close and I will work an extra hour that day.

Worst are the customers that routinely come into the store a minute before closing and wander around. One customer in particular would have a hissy fit if you approached her office at 1 minute before 5, but it's fine to do it in a shop.

All in all store are open longer hours, but pay to sales ratios are still the same, I think it is perfectly OK to close the door to a shop at 8:55 and serve the last customers in the store.

Mr. Presentable

wmpdd3 wrote:

I think it is perfectly OK to close the door to a shop at 8:55 and serve the last customers in the store.

But that's not what happens. You close at 8:40 to be out for 9:00.

Don't get me wrong, I sympathise, but you as an employee don't get to decide when closing time is.

Also, in reply to an earlier post, ask The Dept of Enterprise Trade and Employment, and they will tell you an employee by law must be paid for every minute they work. This also disallows the common practice in industry of rounding hours and lateness penalties.

mikemac

That's terrible OP. Xtravision which is a very large company and a turnover of millions and they won't pay their staff though they can well afford to. It'd be different if this was a small newsagent but it's not acceptable for a international company like this.

Tbh, I'd organize the staff and tell your manager in one weeks time that you start to walk out at closing time as your pay stops then. If you can type up a letter showing the relevent legislation then hand this over too.
It'd be tough on the morning shift but chat to them and they'll understand.

But that's just me and maybe you don't want to go this far.
Oh, and don't close the shop early, it's hardly fair on the customers

keefg

OP, if as you say, the early shift are paid for any extra time worked but your late shift isn't then AFAIK this is a clear breach of employment law.

Any additional payment be it OT or time of in liew etc must be implemented across the board and available to all staff.

check out www.entemp.ie for more info. I have been on plenty of Legal Island HR seminars and Irish & UK cases are riddled with situations just like this.

I am not sure what your situation is, long time full-time staff, part-time or if this is just a summer job, but if it was me personally I would lock up and go home at 11pm on the nail. 15 mins of OT doesn't sound like much but add it up over the year and it is still a few quid and like someone else said this is a big company trying to screw the honest worker.

kmick

Here's a thought seeing as she cant see you close early - like 5 minutes early. Have all your stuff stacked and counted like previous posters said and the 5 minutes should be enough. If anyone complains deny everything. Contine to deny until it passes over or you get fired.

the_syco

Be carefull how you do this. Part-timers are ten a penny, esp during the summer. F**king around can cost you your job, esp as they should have video cameras looking at the tills, etc.

Just something to keep in mind.

leeroybrown

kmick wrote:

Here's a thought seeing as she cant see you close early - like 5 minutes early.

I'm sure that lots of people who have worked in retail will tell you how irritating some customers can be if they think (and I don't mean know) that you are closing a few minutes to early. This kind of thing can easily come back to bite you. Also, I'm pretty sure that the company mentioned above has plenty of CCTV should they feel like checking up on employees.

Paddy@CIRL

Another X/V employee here who has dealt with this problem for the last four years. Have been warned by my DM that I'll be officially warned blah blah blah for closing early but I'll still continue to do it. All the managers (Six in four years) have agreed with me closing early and leaving on time at the end of my shift.

TV's / music off at - 30minutes.

Half lights off at - 20 minutes

Door locked and lights out at - 10 minutes.

I've pointed out numerous times that I would have no problem working after hours once I was payed fairly. I'm fairly certain they can't sack you over it, unfair dismissal anyone ?


'We're letting you go because you refuse to work free for us.'

I honestly sympathise with late coming customers, I'd always explain it to them that we aren't being payed and I'd accept any returns they were trying to drop back. I never rush or force anyone out of the shop. If there are customers still in the store, I tell them to take their time, we are just starting to close up, no rush or panic.