O'Connell Street cycle lane

markpb

I noticed this morning that the outline for new road markings was put down O'Connell St southbound last night. It even includes a bike lane!

There ends the good news. The bad news is that it's kerb-side, amidst the bus stops so it'll be pretty useless for 18 hours a day. Good work DCC

Cabaal

More great work by a county council in Ireland

rubadub

I thought they did away with cycle tracks altogether? seems they are now "pull in and use your mobile phone lanes".

cyclopath2001

There's certainly enough exceptions in the regulations. Lanes that are exclusively reserved for cyclists are a rarity.

I don't think the authorities appreciate the notion that cycle lanes must
actually be useful to cyclists. In my neighbourhood they allow patrons of nearby pubs to park in cycle tracks at night. Perverse logic.

Mostly it seems, they build them, take some photos for their brochures and then remove them.

dalk

cyclopath2001 wrote:

Mostly it seems, they build them, take some photos for their brochures and then remove them.

Funnily enough, didn't they have a cycle lane painted on O'Connell street when the work was finished last year, except it ran up the other side of the road? (The right-hand side of the outside lane, the opposite of where it is now). It disappeared pretty soon... :rolleyes:

markpb

dalk wrote:

Funnily enough, didn't they have a cycle lane painted on O'Connell street when the work was finished last year, except it ran up the other side of the road? (The right-hand side of the outside lane, the opposite of where it is now). It disappeared pretty soon... :rolleyes:

They did and it was great. A little tricky to get to safely, I think it spooked a lot of drivers who weren't expecting it.

Victor

dalk wrote:

Funnily enough, didn't they have a cycle lane painted on O'Connell street when the work was finished last year, except it ran up the other side of the road? (The right-hand side of the outside lane, the opposite of where it is now). It disappeared pretty soon... :rolleyes:

Legally, a cycle lane is the bit to the left of the line, so the cycle lane was 6m wide and the traffic lane 1m. :rolleyes:

ba

doesn't a cycle lane ruin the aesthetic of the road? however the function is reduced for cyclists, but i thougth the civic importance of the street would command an exception from the DCC?

Victor

ba wrote:

doesn't a cycle lane ruin the aesthetic of the road?

How do you figure that when it is full of plastic shopfonts, some ugly buildings, dereliction ...

Cabaal

ba wrote:

doesn't a cycle lane ruin the aesthetic of the road?

Don;t cars ruin streets by people leaving them parked all over the place, think of how nice places would be without them all

also don't let me get started on cars being used on roads.....

ba

Cabaal wrote:

Don;t cars ruin streets by people leaving them parked all over the place, think of how nice places would be without them all

also don't let me get started on cars being used on roads.....

i agree but i was refering to o' connell st only, not streets in general. nobody parks on o' connell st save taxis/buses of course.

this street is the main thorough-fair of dublin and ireland. thought has been invested into the surface of the road (except for cyclists) but i'm okay with that, but only with this street as i believe it is a worthy exception due to its civic importance.

changes are being made to this street, its facades, its presentation. yes the top half is derelict, but in the future it will hopefully be great, like the spire, clean, confident and modern.

did anybody spot a cycle lane on the Champs Elysees during the TDF final
stage?

o connell st.jpg

a tacky red/yellow whatever colur cycle lane across this space would ruin the 'aesthetic'. the president may only make one televised speech here once a year, but when she does, ireland looks bloody good. unfortunatley sometimes function must fall to form.

Slice

Given that O'Connell St isn't the most narrow street in the city I don't understand why they didn't build a segregated two way cycle lane into it when the street was redesigned. Any street of that width in Germany would most definitely have a segregated cycle lane.

ba

on a street so heavily pedestrianized, a cycle lane, given our nations complete ignorance, wouldnt work. just another walking oportunity. i nearly guarantee nobody would use it, and cyclists would would make a mass exodus to using the road again. cycle lane would be gathering footprints and dust. another waste of resources.

Morgan

As you say, O'Connell St. is the main thoroughfare in Ireland. I think that's the exact reason there should be a cycle lane there. Having a well-constructed lane in such a high profile location would be an example to all the other roads out there to get their acts together. It wouldn't have to be a haphazard strip of lumpy red tarmac - they could construct something aesthetically pleasing.

The street design may be nice to look at but the appearance of the area in front of the GPO has already lead to one death. As you can see in the picture above, the path and road blend almost seamlessy into one another. This caused a couple of old ladies to walk off the path in front of a bus - one of them died from her injuries.

The inquest also heard from a garda expert on accident reconstruction who said that warnings to pedestrians that they were approaching a road crossing were not immediately apparent at eye level.

Garda Edward Davin said a suggestion of extra signage at the crossing had value.

Witnesses also said that the colour, surface and level of the road at the crossing were the same as the footpath.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0614/bus.html?rss

ba

Morgan wrote:

As you say, O'Connell St. is the main thoroughfare in Ireland. I think that's the exact reason there should be a cycle lane there. Having a well-constructed lane in such a high profile location would be an example to all the other roads out there to get their acts together. It wouldn't have to be a haphazard strip of lumpy red tarmac - they could construct something aesthetically pleasing.

The street design may be nice to look at but the appearance of the area in front of the GPO has already lead to one death. As you can see in the picture above, the path and road blend almost seamlessy into one another. This caused a couple of old ladies to walk off the path in front of a bus - one of them died from her injuries.


http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0614/bus.html?rss

her death could have been a result of talking to the person beside her, her bad eye sight and not paying attention. her death isn't solely a result of poor design. there is a step down onto the road, and little steel nipples in the ground that alter the texture of the surface as you near the road. not to mention big yellow buses and traffic lights that beep!

how could anybody forget that o connell st is a road with moving traffic?

yes a cycle lane could have been sewn into the seamless design of the surface. still, i dont think it would work. see my comment above.

i get slightly frustrated as people always try to pin accident and death down to poor design. so how about the DCC erect chunky ugly steel handrails the entire lenght of o' connell st? accidents are a result of ignorance and stupidity, the DCC cannot hold everybodys hand as they cross the road. caution must be taken and i dont feel like urban spaces have to be punished to look like padded cells or creches for babies.

Morgan

ba wrote:

i dont feel like urban spaces have to be punished to look like padded cells or creches for babies.

Obviously not, but looking like a road and a footpath might be a start. If DCC wanted the area in front of the GPO to resemble a public plaza they shouldn't have four lanes of traffic running through it.

rubadub

Morgan wrote:

Obviously not, but looking like a road and a footpath might be a start. If DCC wanted the area in front of the GPO to resemble a public plaza they shouldn't have four lanes of traffic running through it.

I found it confusing when I was last on it. I was stopping since so many people were on it I actaully thought it was a pedestrianised area, (but no, they were just jaywalking in front of oblivious gardai refusing to do their job). It sort of stretches out and at a glance looks pedestrianized. I could well imagine visitors or older people walking out onto it.

I have taken to cycling on the roads on a few stretches now, rather than the cycle tracks, it is getting more dangerous on the tracks. They are getting more pedestrians on them by the day, and these €1 bottles mean the lanes are even more loaded with glass too.

markpb

ba wrote:

this street is the main thorough-fair of dublin and ireland. thought has been invested into the surface of the road (except for cyclists) but i'm okay with that, but only with this street as i believe it is a worthy exception due to its civic importance.

o connell st.jpg

a tacky red/yellow whatever colur cycle lane across this space would ruin the 'aesthetic'. the president may only make one televised speech here once a year, but when she does, ireland looks bloody good. unfortunatley sometimes function must fall to form.

I have to wonder whether you've ever been on O'Connell St, especially in the morning rush hour?

The place is incredibly busy, it's a permanent bus stop in the mornings, the air is filthy (especially if you're cycling behind a bus), people jaywalk because the lights are daft and the traffic is so slow, there's no cycle lane, they had to sandblast the GPO plaza road-surface because it was unsafe, the lights on one side of the street don't work, the lights around the plaza are regularly turned off for no reason, there are no seats for pedestrians to relax, the trees around the Spire were torn out, never to be replaced, the taxi rank is a downright danger....

Right now, it's fulfilling neither function nor form and you somehow object to a single white line (that's all cycle lanes are in Dublin) because it would ruin the aesthetic beauty of it?

What annoys me more is that I'd love to cycle anywhere but O'Connell street but I can't because the city council pretty much force cyclists wanting to get from Dorset St to Stephens Green to go through it. Can't use Gardiner St because the right turn onto Georges Quay means cutting across four lanes of traffic, can't use Jervis st because of the one way system, Capel St is an option buts it's well out of the way and dumps you on Dame St, another stupidly dangerous city centre street.

did anybody spot a cycle lane on the Champs Elysees during the TDF final stage?

Champs Elysses isn't a main throughfare in Paris, it's a shopping street. If you want to compare like with like, you should have asked if we want a cycle lane down Grafton Street.

Also, Paris provides mile after mile of physically segregated cycle lane. They even manage to segregate their bus lanes too because they know there's nothing worse than a street full of stinky, slow moving buses and cars. It might not be your idea of utopia but it's a damned sight better, prettier and more practical than O'Connell St is right now.

ba

i don't object to a white line, but a 1m wide strip of yellow applied as an additive solution to existing design ruins the architectural integrity of the street. it should have been integrated long time ago. it is a mistake on behalf of the DCC and the architect.

i cycle through o connell st 6pm.

seats would ruin the open plan layout, and would conjest the pedestrian realm and interfere with the versatility of the space especially during protests, social/political gatherings etc. what's wrong with standing at a bus stop? unless it rains, have an umbrella, is that a lot to ask?

i compare champs elysees to o connell st because: it has shops, heavy traffic, is host to public events, lacks a cycle lane, internationally recognised.

mark, your making irrelevant points. urban design cannot combat fumes from buses, jaywalkers, traffic lights that are turned off, people who choose to drive alone to work causing traffic. we are talking about urban design and how the architect failed to integrate a cycle lane from day one.

things aren't that bad. most streets have bus shelters and seats. just not o' connell st. unfortunately people must stand or get wet. i admire the aspiration for open plan on o connell st, so the street seems bigger + wider.

markpb

Urban design has to be applied to how people use the street as well as to it's architecture and layout. You can't simply design a street and forget about its users.

The people who use O'Connell St are pedestrians, cyclists, bus passengers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, delivery vans and some cars. Out of those groups, very few are catered for well. It's a case of trying to please everyone and pleasing no-one.

There are no seats, not for bus passengers, but for people to sit, relax, eat or talk. You can't simply spend time there. Champs Elysses manages to have seats, metro entrances and stalls and still have space for people to walk. You can't spend time on O'Connell St unless you're waiting for a bus (and I do agree with you about bus shelters) or are shopping.

Cyclists are forced to cycle through it but there are no provisions made to do so safely. Like you said, this could have been integrated so easily and effectively during the design process.

Taxi drivers are forced to use it in a unsafe and haphazzard manner, opening doors into the street, turning out so they cross lanes and u-turning at a pedestrian crossing with neither lights nor markings.

No provision was made for using any of the surrounding streets as bus stops, something which could have made a huge difference to the atmosphere on O'Connell street without affecting bus services.

There are no delivery bays so delivery vans (and the Gardai) park on the side of the road (illegally) or on the footpath.

The bus bays don't take two buses properly so one is left jutting out into the traffic causing obstructions for buses and cars and a danger to cyclists.

Some of the changes they made are great and it has improved but clearly the architect drew some pretty pictures like the one you linked to earlier and gave no consideration to how it would look or work on the ground. Prada architecture - form over function.

ba

markpb wrote:

Urban design has to be applied to how people use the street as well as to it's architecture and layout. You can't simply design a street and forget about its users.

The people who use O'Connell St are pedestrians, cyclists, bus passengers, bus drivers, taxi drivers, delivery vans and some cars. Out of those groups, very few are catered for well. It's a case of trying to please everyone and pleasing no-one.

There are no seats, not for bus passengers, but for people to sit, relax, eat or talk. You can't simply spend time there. Champs Elysses manages to have seats, metro entrances and stalls and still have space for people to walk. You can't spend time on O'Connell St unless you're waiting for a bus (and I do agree with you about bus shelters) or are shopping.

Cyclists are forced to cycle through it but there are no provisions made to do so safely. Like you said, this could have been integrated so easily and effectively during the design process.

Taxi drivers are forced to use it in a unsafe and haphazzard manner, opening doors into the street, turning out so they cross lanes and u-turning at a pedestrian crossing with neither lights nor markings.

No provision was made for using any of the surrounding streets as bus stops, something which could have made a huge difference to the atmosphere on O'Connell street without affecting bus services.

There are no delivery bays so delivery vans (and the Gardai) park on the side of the road (illegally) or on the footpath.

The bus bays don't take two buses properly so one is left jutting out into the traffic causing obstructions for buses and cars and a danger to cyclists.

Some of the changes they made are great and it has improved but clearly the architect drew some pretty pictures like the one you linked to earlier and gave no consideration to how it would look or work on the ground. Prada architecture - form over function.

paris has the climate to eat outside. the typical european public plaza
never caught on in ireland because we dont have the weather to eat/drink outside. it's been raining everyday for the last 70days. know what i mean?
how many restaurants are on o' connell st? mc donalds, burger king? QUESTION - would you eat your lunch on o' connell st? no need for benches that wont be used.

ppl sit on the statues though.

there are so many variables, factors, problems, that to find an answer for them all is very difficult. unfortunately some professions, like delivery, get a raw deal - no delivery spaces (but for something used only 1/2 hour a day, its function is not prioritized). and we have no cycle lane, permanently.

however something should have been done about the integrated cycle lane from the beginning. but its success i think is uncertain.

i think roads will always be unsafe, and there will never be a safe street. mark how would you design for the modern ireland? I guess the roads could have been made wider to allow for generous safer parking spaces for taxi or buses and the pavements slimmed. on the whole it was a good job. i wouldnt dismiss the architect so quickly or 'prada' architecture for that matter. post modern architecture has merit.

robfitz

markpb wrote:

Cyclists are forced to cycle through it but there are no provisions made to do so safely. Like you said, this could have been integrated so easily and effectively during the design process.

The addition of cycle tracks doesn't make a road any safer to cycle on, because it fails to even acknowledge the main cause of accidents which is poor cyclist and motorist behaviour. Off the top of my head about half the cyclists that have died in accidents in Dublin in the last few years have died while using or very, very near too cycle tracks.

I think it is a myth that cycle tracks are a safety device, they used to remove cyclists from the roadway to allow motor vehicles to move faster. Cycle tracks can have benefits (speed, directness, etc.) but the safety benefit is way overrated.

The other issue is that many (most?) transport engineers are not competent to design such cycle tracks, and/or they fail to follow good engineering practice by not understanding the bicycle as design vehicle.

ba

this is a very good point.