Practicing abroad with BCL + BL

Rhonda9000

Does anybody know anything about practicing in continental Europe with an Irish BCL (hoping to commence and complete the BL quickly as well). Husband is Dutch and we are contemplating setting up in his home (Amsterdam) permanently after I'm done. I have fluent German but no Dutch. He's not in the legal profession so doesn't know what the deal is. Am I employable straight off e.g. in-house at a multinational? Is the LLB - which I dont have - more useful in civil law countries? Am I doomed?

JohnDoeOh

There is a snippet of info on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LL.B.:

"European Union law permits European Union citizens with LL.B. degrees from Ireland or the UK, who practise law in one of these countries for three or more years, to practise also in every other member state. The actual procedure to receive the respective national licence is regulated by the member state and therefore differs from country to country, but every EU member has to apply the relevant EU Directives to its own national law."

I also am trying to find out about fleeing this island I've PM'd you more info that I've found out.

johnnyskeleton

Rhonda9000 wrote:

I have fluent German but no Dutch. He's not in the legal profession so doesn't know what the deal is. Am I employable straight off e.g. in-house at a multinational? Is the LLB - which I dont have - more useful in civil law countries? Am I doomed?

I would imagine that 1) not speaking Dutch and 2) not knowing Dutch law would be two major obstacles to working as a legal professional straight off. That said, you might get a job working in a quasi-legal role or working for a big international firm's branch there (American, English etc). It seems to me that if you are thinking about moving to Holland and becoming a legal professional there, the best option may be to try to qualify there and at the same time learn Dutch, instead of going to kings inns.

Rhonda9000

johnnyskeleton wrote:

I would imagine that 1) not speaking Dutch and 2) not knowing Dutch law would be two major obstacles to working as a legal professional straight off. That said, you might get a job working in a quasi-legal role or working for a big international firm's branch there (American, English etc). It seems to me that if you are thinking about moving to Holland and becoming a legal professional there, the best option may be to try to qualify there and at the same time learn Dutch, instead of going to kings inns.

This seems like a fair assessment. I am finding out more about quasi-legal roles and it seems somewhat promising. Luckily husband has a notary based in Amsterdam in extended family and put me in touch. We have another while to tie up things here in Ireland so I am going to go ahead and get the practitioner qualification sorted at kings inns in the mean time. I have booked my first Dutch lessons

Duffman

The BCL and the LLB are identical qualifications for your purposes. They're both undergraduate law degrees and differ only in name.

"Practicing with a BCL" isn't possible as it isn't a professional legal qualification here, let alone abroad. What you need to worry about is qualifying as a barrister or a solicitor in Ireland before you move.

I'm not positive about this but it was my understanding that you can't properly call yourself a barrister when you get your BL. You need to find a master and devil for a sufficient amount of time before the Inns will recognise you as qualified to practice.

This is critical. European law does indeed require that your professional qualifications be recognised in other Member States but you need to have them first!

I know Dutch students who are close to qualifying and it sounds like a longer and more difficult process than in Ireland. I'm sure you'd prefer to qualify here if possible.

Another poster mentioned the fact that you didn't speak Dutch. I'm sure you know yourself how pretty much everyone in the Netherlands has excellent English. I doubt the language thing will stop you!.

Rhonda9000

Thanks for this Duffman.. definitely the next priority is to get a practitioners qualification and take it from there (def. have to look into the 1 year pupillage stuff as condition of being recognized practitioner also). Hoping for the best that I will find something when we make the move. Haunted re. the English speaking natives, especially Amsterdamers - their English seems better than mine at times!

Duffman

Oh there is another possibility. I know law students who are doing internships with European firms in Brussels and I've heard that some firms will pay for you to do the New York bar or a similar course. The idea is to fast-track your qualification and avoid the lengthy continental route.

I don't really have any further details on this but I hope it's helpful.

Rhonda9000

Very interesting. Are these Irish law students? Probably law + French / German? Perhaps doing an internship could be very helpful in gaining a foothold. Is the NY bar seen as some sort of universal practitioner standard?

Duffman

Yep, Irish and Law and French.

The NY bar isn't seen as a standard but I think a lot of people do it because it's relatively easy.

As it's not a European qualification it wouldn't entitle you to practice in the EU automatically but there must be an established transfer procedure that doesn't involve too much hassle. I really know nothing more about it though but I'm sure others here could comment.

Rhonda9000

Thanks for the v. useful suggestion.. I have to admit to not taking enough notice of all the qualification etc. procedures for too long

johnnyskeleton

Duffman wrote:

What you need to worry about is qualifying as a barrister or a solicitor in Ireland before you move.

...

This is critical. European law does indeed require that your professional qualifications be recognised in other Member States but you need to have them first!

I know Dutch students who are close to qualifying and it sounds like a longer and more difficult process than in Ireland. I'm sure you'd prefer to qualify here if possible.

But qualifying in the Netherlands will give someone a good grasp of Dutch law and legal systems, and you might find yourself after doing the Kings Inns knowing a lot about the jurisdiction of the High Court and how to draft a family law civil bill, but not knowing how many courts there are in the Netherlands, or in what circumstances euthanasia is legal.

Duffman wrote:

Another poster mentioned the fact that you didn't speak Dutch. I'm sure you know yourself how pretty much everyone in the Netherlands has excellent English. I doubt the language thing will stop you!.

My concern is not that you would have difficulty socialising or getting around, my concern would be that if Dutch courts and legal documents are in the Dutch language, you will not be able to address the court or understand what is going on, and you would need those documents translated before you can work on them.

scorplett

JohnDoeOh wrote:

There is a snippet of info on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LL.B.:

This link is dead and the functioning link is now here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bachelor_of_Laws

Sonnenblumen

Rhonda9000 wrote:

Does anybody know anything about practicing in continental Europe with an Irish BCL (hoping to commence and complete the BL quickly as well). Husband is Dutch and we are contemplating setting up in his home (Amsterdam) permanently after I'm done. I have fluent German but no Dutch. He's not in the legal profession so doesn't know what the deal is. Am I employable straight off e.g. in-house at a multinational? Is the LLB - which I dont have - more useful in civil law countries? Am I doomed?

I would imagine your dismissive attitude towards the lower classes will certainly get in your way in Amsterdam. But there'll be plenty of closeted rightwing support available.

Rhonda9000

Ah seriously... "you dont know me"

Out of curiousity - what did I say around here that gives me the "dismissive attitude towards the lower classes" label from you? Or is it just a simple built-in dislike of the legal profession?

Don't worry about me in Amsterdam pet, I get along well with everybody.

seamus

Sonnen - WTF? I'm only assuming that you're bringing some crap in from another forum. Take this as a warning.

Sonnenblumen

(With permission + some latitude from Seamus),
this is a reminder of your post:

"Well I was getting the groceries minding my business when it's buggy scuffed the back of my heel so I turned around and there it was - a big beastly wan, grimey tracksuit, bleached hair, more 'gold' than the central bank and 2 screaming rat children cut from the same cloth in the buggy. She just glared at me when I turned around so I just walked on not wanting to cause a scene. Then around 5 seconds later CRASH - buggy straight into the back of my legs - this time causing a small cut so I turned around and said "excuse me can you please watch where you are going" and she starts off "problem??....*effing and blinding*" i.e. agro so I said sternly "that was not an invitation to speak to me" and SHE LOST IT. Dirty scumbag, dragged up no doubt. Her friend started egging her on "Cristil luv..." then and there was a chorus of 5 children screaming and bawling and running and generally making a nuisance of themselves. At that point I had enough and I walked away. Every one of them should be lined up, sterilized and kept indoors."


I think this reflects poorly on you, but such speak would get you into serious trouble with dutch authorities!!

Rhonda9000

Oh dear, I wasn't aware the Dutch authorities endorse people with buggies and attitude injuring others and deny the victims any right of reply. Has free speech about less socially desirable people been outlawed there on the sly?

On a similar vein you shouldn't worry about how poorly I come across, when you're not exactly the model of tolerance yourself...

You>> "why was I banned from the forum?"

Sceptre>> "Banned, I suspect, because you got snotty and directly insulted another user. Either your memory or behaviour must be faulty if you can't figure out why a ban was justifiable."

Amazotheamazing

Rhonda9000 wrote:

less socially desirable people

Who are the most social desirably people and the average socially desirably people?