Air Vents and Sound insulation

Noviceman

I've two q's for all you knowledgable folk out there
1. Air vents, i don't have any in my windows. How many do people think i will need in house, and will they lead to heat loss. I have extractor fan in kitchen, so that should be ok, i was gonna just put one in Living room where there is an open fire, there doesn't seem to be any agreement on this.

2. My waste pipes (some of them) are going to be boxed off above the kitchen area, sink etc.. I want to sound insulate them, what is the best thing to use?

Thks

muffler

Every habitable room must have background ventilation and mechanical ventilation to bathrooms, wc's, en-suites, utility rooms etc - basically anywhere you would have steam (master bedroom is exempt here )

Your windows should have trickle vents. Any rooms with a heat producing should have a wall vent - its all down in black and white in Part F of the building regs.

Insulating the waste pipes: Any decent insulation will do - fibreglass, rockwool etc

Noviceman

thks, have no vents in the windows, am looking into one of the heat recovery ventilation systems, expensive, but look good

Monty G

muffler wrote:

Every habitable room must have background ventilation and mechanical ventilation to bathrooms, wc's, en-suites, utility rooms etc - basically anywhere you would have steam (master bedroom is exempt here )

Your windows should have trickle vents. Any rooms with a heat producing should have a wall vent - its all down in black and white in Part F of the building regs.

Insulating the waste pipes: Any decent insulation will do - fibreglass, rockwool etc

He certainly doesn't need trickle vents in his windows - TGD-F is clear about this even if you have not understood it - and anybody concerned with heat loss or sound transmission should not even consider using them.

Is mise le meas,
Monty

ircoha

Monty G wrote:

He certainly doesn't need trickle vents in his windows - TGD-F is clear about this even if you have not understood it - and anybody concerned with heat loss or sound transmission should not even consider using them.

Is mise le meas,
Monty

Pretty aggressive language for your 2nd post under this disguise.

muffler

Monty G wrote:

He certainly doesn't need trickle vents in his windows - TGD-F is clear about this even if you have not understood it - and anybody concerned with heat loss or sound transmission should not even consider using them.

Is mise le meas,
Monty

A Chara,

Oh I think I do understand the requirements of Part F and I did say that the windows should have trickle vents - I didnt say they must have. If the OP doesn't like that method he can of course use wall vents for background ventilation.

Now can you give us your solution which will obviously be in compliance.

muffler

ircoha wrote:

Pretty aggressive language for your 2nd post under this disguise.

I didnt want to say that till I get this earth moving explanation first

Noviceman

Noviceman wrote:

thks, have no vents in the windows, am looking into one of the heat recovery ventilation systems, expensive, but look good

Yes, a good idea you get controlled ventillation - just be sure you get one with a summer bypass, we didn't and found the house gets too warm in the "summer".

Monty G

muffler wrote:

A Chara,

Oh I think I do understand the requirements of Part F and I did say that the windows should have trickle vents - I didnt say they must have. If the OP doesn't like that method he can of course use wall vents for background ventilation.

Now can you give us your solution which will obviously be in compliance.

There is absolutely nothing in TGD F that says windows should have trickle vents – in black and white or blue and yellow for that matter. The guidance recommends a specific volume of background ventilation and offers various suggestions on how to provide it. The TGD’s are cut ‘n paste jobs from the Brits and they really are lowest common denominator material. I’m surprised at your difficulties with this stuff.

I wouldn't be so presumptious to offer a solution. My humble suggestion, budget permitting, would be mech ventilation with heat recovery.

Is mise le meas,
Monty

Monty G

ircoha wrote:

Pretty aggressive language for your 2nd post under this disguise.

Thats your interpretaton. I would say it is to the point. He talks about it all being "down in black and white in Part F of the building regs" and he was wrong.

Is mise le meas,
Monty

muffler

Monty G wrote:

TGD-F is clear about this even if you have not understood it

Monty G wrote:

I’m surprised at your difficulties with this stuff

From this thread


and from another thread

Monty G wrote:

If you want to pontificate on this subject and not come across as incoherent you should acquire a minimal knowledge of sympathetic vibration aka the coincidence dip....................................You are having difficulties comprehending basic glazing fundamentals...........................Your remarks on sound penetration and leakage are nonsensical..........................Yet more comprehension difficulties on your part about my "suggestions".

One of the basic rules here and in every fora is not to attack the poster. - Monty G - red card - 1 week

Enid Gerhardy

muffler wrote:

From this thread


and from another thread


One of the basic rules here and in every fora is not to attack the poster. - Monty G - red card - 1 week

Well you are the first person since Adrian Vlok to ban Montgomery and look what happened to him. It’s a rather sad environment where pointing out factual errors is considered an attack. I am writing to inform you all that he will not be returning to this forum under such circumstances.

Enid Gerhardy

smashey

Enid Gerhardy wrote:

Well you are the first person since Adrian Vlok to ban Montgomery and look what happened to him. It’s a rather sad environment where pointing out factual errors is considered an attack. I am writing to inform you all that he will not be returning to this forum under such circumstances.

Enid Gerhardy

Oh yeah? Neither will you.

Banned.

galwaytt

.....mmm, at the risk of the ire of Muffler, I quote from TGD part F :

General
1.4 Where a room or space contains a heat producing appliance, permanent ventilation may be required. See Technical Gudance Document J - Heat Producing Appliance.

so clearly, part F does not stipulate that you must have a vent in a room with a heat producing appliance - part F simply refers you to............part J.

And that says........

Air Supply to Appliances
1.2 Each appliance should be
(a) room sealed, or
(b) contained in a room or space which has a permanent ventilation opening .......
The definiation of 'ventilation opening' can be found in Technical Guidance Document F - Ventilation

So, back to part F then, which states

1.2
'ventilation opening' means any means of permanent or controllable ventilation which -
- opens directly to the external air, and
- except in the case of a screen, fascia, baffle, etc., has a smallest dimension of at least 8mm.

but does not include a flue to a chimney.

So, it is not proscribed that your vent be in either the window, or the walls. Nor that it be a particular shape or model (round/rectangular). It is only a requirement that it be permanent, and may controllable - and there is a size requirment iirc elsewhere in the TGD. So mufflers assertion that a window must have a trickle vent, and that the wall in a room with a heat producing appliance must have a permanent vent, is not supported by the text of either Part F or Part J.

I can see where the confusion would occur, yes, but one must be careful in translating such texts 'in the field' as it were.......

OP - for your open flued fire, you will require a proper vent in this case, yes. How you deliver that ventilation is up to you, so long as it meets the size (and therefore airflow requirements), under Part F and J. See Part J, Table 1, for size guidance.

muffler

galwaytt wrote:

.....mmm, at the risk of the ire of Muffler, I quote from TGD part F :

You got that right when you quote directly from the regs but misquote me.

galwaytt wrote:

so clearly, part F does not stipulate that you must have a vent in a room with a heat producing appliance

I didnt say that.

galwaytt wrote:

So mufflers assertion that a window must have a trickle vent, and that the wall in a room with a heat producing appliance must have a permanent vent, is not supported by the text of either Part F or Part J

Nor did I say that.

This thread is not about me in case you hadn't noticed and misquoting me in these circumstances can be considered both flaming and off topic to an extent in light of the previous posts. What I will do is leave it to smashey to decide what he wants to to with this.

smashey

TGD F:
Note the word "should".

Habitable Rooms
1.5 In a habitable room other than a utility room, a kitchen or a room containing a kitchen, the following provision for ventilation should be adequate:
(a) a ventilation opening suitable for background ventilation having a total area not less than 6500 mm2, and
(b) a ventilation opening suitable for rapid ventilation having a total area of at least 1/20th of the floor area of the room.

Kitchens and Utility Rooms
1.7 In a utility room, a kitchen or a room containing a kitchen, the following provision for ventilation should be adequate:
(a) a ventilation opening suitable for background ventilation having a total area of not less than 6500 mm2, and
(b) a ventilation opening suitable for rapid ventilation having a total area of at least 1/20th of the floor area, and
(c) (i) mechanical extract ventilation capable of extracting at a rate of 60 litres per second (or at a rate of 30 litres per second where the ventilation extract is incorporated in a cooker hood), which may be operated intermittently, e.g. when moisture vapour is being created
during cooking, washing, etc., or (ii) passive stack ventilation (PSV) designed

I'm not even going to bother with Part J.

I'd like to point out here that this thread is straying off topic with a lot of pedantic waffle and unless it gets back on topic it will be locked.

Now we can argue until we are blue in the face about this but has anybody thought about what would be considered "good practice"? I include ventilation in line with TGD F requirements in everything I do and see no reason not to do this.

galwaytt

Edit:ah- beat me to it

Yes, I see where I should have used 'should' instead of 'must', so that's my error, mea culpa on that.

My point to the OP on the specific requirements for vents is entirely accurate though, I'm sure you'll agree - at the end of the day, he'll have to vent his room with the open flue in it. The method of doing that is now open to him.

Personally, I don't think a window trickle vent is up to venting a fireplace, but I goddamn hate wall vents.

Like everything else, the TGD's are exactly that - only guidelines. If someone invents a better moustrap, they have latitude to use it. With open flues, etc, they really have no choice but to include reference to part J too.

Mellor

galwaytt wrote:

So, it is not proscribed that your vent be in either the window, or the walls. Nor that it be a particular shape or model (round/rectangular). It is only a requirement that it be permanent, and may controllable - and there is a size requirment iirc elsewhere in the TGD.

Slight error here. In a heat producing appliance situation a vent may not be controlable as you appear to suggest.

Part F wrote:

'ventilation opening' means any means of permanent or controllable ventilation

This is the defination of a vent. This defination is not connected to part J and HPAs.

Part J wrote:

Air Supply to Appliances
1.2 Each appliance should be
(a) room sealed, or
(b) contained in a room or space which has a permanent ventilation opening

For HPAs, it must be a permanant vent if a vent is installed. Which wil be the case unless going the room sealed route.