Research

segarox

Hey, I'm starting a supernatural murder mystery novel soon and I need to research some aspects of the occult, would anyone know of a good place to start? Also, correct me if I'm wrong on this, a pentagram = good symbol and inverted pentagram = evil symbol... yes or no?

Nevyn

It depends on the context but for the most part, No.
It sounds like you need to be doing occult research and not paranormal research.

http://occultireland.createforum.net/

Talliesin

segarox wrote:

Also, correct me if I'm wrong on this, a pentagram = good symbol and inverted pentagram = evil symbol... yes or no?

First problem is that the pentagram is one of the most heavily used symbol in all religion, spirituality, magic and occult practice. All the more so if we add pentacles also.

It's like the English word "set". It has a lot of different meanings in different contexts.

It's use in Wicca and Wiccan-influenced witchcraft, other forms of witchcraft, Christianity (historically), QBL and Pennsylvania hexcraft, to name just a few cases are different. Within some of those it's used differently in different cases.

In general in cases where it is coloured with any sort of "value" that value would be positive rather than negative, but often it's just a tool that does a certain job, so describing it as vaguely as "good" simplifies to the point of being wrong.

To then consider the inverted pentacle "bad" requires too things.

First it follows from the pentacle being good, which is already not accurate as said above.

Second it assumes that the inverse of a good thing is necessarily a bad thing, as if breathing out must be a bad thing because breathing in is a good thing.

To take another symbol for comparison. In Christianity the cross is a sign of Christ and therefore a good thing (ignoring other views on it - e.g. the Ancient Roman view in which it was akin to a hangman's rope, only nastier). The inverse of it though has two meanings; one is a symbol of an anti-Christian viewpoint (which since we're looking at the Christian viewpoint is hence a bad thing) but it is also the Cross of St. Peter who asked to be crucified on such a cross out of modesty because he didn't want to die in the same way as Christ.

So if we narrow down our view of a symbol so as to take one that is good (by excluding all other views of that symbol) it still doesn't follow that it's inverse is bad.

Now, if we take that same single viewpoint (though we're also going to have to add some centuries since Christianity symbolism no longer makes much use of the pentacle as a sign of the five wounds of Christ) then the inverse is generally taken to be a symbol of anti-Christian sentiment.

Outside of that single viewpoint though this doesn't hold at all.

Since your intention is to write an occult novel (though why you would write an occult novel if you don't have a knowledge of the occult I don't really understand) then that's the viewpoint that probably has the least interest to you.

In Wicca for instance the first association that would spring to mind in terms of an inverted pentagram would be its use in relation to Second Degree. It's therefore much more of a positive symbol, though one of very specific meaning.

What sort of occult practices are you going to write about?

Oryx

The occult, or paranormal are such huge areas (this thread will give you some idea just how big) it would help to know particularly what area you hope to use, so people can point you in the right direction.

segarox

Talliesin wrote:

What sort of occult practices are you going to write about?

Well, I think might have to explain myself a bit more, you see the story is going to have a reporter and a writer/paranormal investigator being consulted on a murder investigation by a detective when a woman is found ritualistically murdered in Co. Carlow. There are five stab wounds on her body and an inverted pentagram is drawn, in her own blood, on her chest. The circle is drawn between each wound and points of the star all end at a stab wound. That's what I've imagined so far, I'm going to have more victims and the trio will come realise that as a crazed group or individual is behind the murders trying to restore an anicent order or achieve global domination or something. I think it sound like a good story. However, I don't want to get any details wrong, no matter how trivial.

Nevyn

Firstly people who woud being doing those sorts of acts would be delusional so really they can use any symbol that would take thier twisted fancy.

Only idtiots who at best dabble would do such a thing ergo it will not make any difference what detail you want to use as there are no rites for such things.

If you want hard fact on that type of playing at the occult or crimes that are made to appear as being occult that I would suggest that you do some research into the 'ritual' slaughter of a donkey up at Howth and what was found there you should be able to get press records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentagram

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentacle

Talliesin

segarox wrote:

Well, I think might have to explain myself a bit more, you see the story is going to have a reporter and a writer/paranormal investigator being consulted on a murder investigation by a detective when a woman is found ritualistically murdered in Co. Carlow. There are five stab wounds on her body and an inverted pentagram is drawn, in her own blood, on her chest. The circle is drawn between each wound and points of the star all end at a stab wound. That's what I've imagined so far, I'm going to have more victims and the trio will come realise that as a crazed group or individual is behind the murders trying to restore an anicent order or achieve global domination or something. I think it sound like a good story. However, I don't want to get any details wrong, no matter how trivial.

Thing is though, that wouldn't be an occult crime. It doesn't relate to any occult practice, there's not point in any of the above.

People putting various vaugely spooky elements into crimes is something that happens for a variety of reasons (they're loonies with their own private symbolism that they are using or they're trying to misdirect investigation being two) but if anything knowing nothing about the occult can be an advantage in writing about a murderer who knows nothing about the occult.

Zillah

Do you yet know why they are performing murders in such a fashion? You've got to get inside their heads for the story to make any sense. Bear in mind, if you're inventing your own cult then you can have them believe what you like. Hell, they could believe that carving a smiley face into people's chests ensures a happy after life.

If you want it to have the ring of authenticity then I suggest you start reading about templars, free masons, and of course paganism. Then imagine how a group might take some of these beliefs and rituals and come up with an idea for how to take over the world/revive a cult etc. You don't need books for this stage, I'd suggest that your first stop should be wikipedia, get a good base understanding of all this stuff, and if any of it in particular strikes you as interesting then maybe get a book to narrow your research.

Nevyn

Read Dennis Wheatley.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Wheatley

Talliesin

Yep, Wheatley is a good source for this sort of thing.

Some of his books contain a bit of actual occult knowledge (mainly when he was hanging around Alex Sanders - you couldn't help but pick up a few things in such company) but some are complete nonsense and the ones that do have something real in them are still mostly nonsense. This does not stop them being gripping trillers. That's probably closer to the mark of what you want than anything that needs deep research.

If you want to have a few elements that are real to give flavour (like the one or two bits in the early Harry Potter books) you don't need much more depth than Wikipedia would give you.

The other approach works more when the author has an interest in the occult apart from with a view to a story and then later brings that into their story-writing (the old addage of writing what you know). One of the enjoyable things about Laurell K. Hamilton's books (before she stopped thinking up plots and just wrote non-stop sex-scenes for twenty bloody chapters) is that while she takes liberties all over the place she clearly does know a bit about magic. But trying to emulate this would be like putting the cart before the horse in your case (same as any other field - William Gibson's cy-fi takes advantage of the very fact that he doesn't actuall know much about computers whereas Neal Stephenson's cy-fi takes advantages of the fact that Stephenson's a hacker himself; Arthur C. Clarke was a technologist, Stan Lee has said "nobody knows less about science than me" and so on).

Nevyn

OI!

there bloody good sex scences are about sex magic :P

Talliesin

Yeah, but her second-last book had nothing but. I've read porn with less sex scenes per page. Hopefully her latest will actually have something in the line of plot as well (have bought it, but haven't read it yet - if it's like the one before it'll be the last one I buy).

segarox

Talliesin wrote:

The other approach works more when the author has an interest in the occult apart from with a view to a story

Oh I've always had interest in the occult as I do with all aspects of the paranormal

stevenmu

Soudns like a great idea for a novel (and please do let us know if you publish it). From what I know (which may not be in any way correct) the pentagram can represent differetn things, but at it's most basic it represents the 5 'elements' (earth, wind, water, fire and spirit). As such what's important about it is that the 5 points each represent something vital, the actual orientation of the points, be they upsidedown or not, is irrelevant. What really matters is that the 5 points are represented, not whether they are upside down or not.

That said an inverted pentagram does sound like the kind of thing that most people (myself included) could find sinister. Probably because most of us are used to the idea of anything being inverted being necessarily evil.

This site does make mention of the inverted pentagram as being seen as an evil synbol, and also of the fact that in early christianity it was seen as a symbol of the 5 wounds of christ but later seen as a symbol of evil (in any orientation) but I'm not sure how accurate it is.

Talliesin

stevenmu wrote:

This site does make mention of the inverted pentagram as being seen as an evil synbol, and also of the fact that in early christianity it was seen as a symbol of the 5 wounds of christ but later seen as a symbol of evil (in any orientation) but I'm not sure how accurate it is.

That's pretty accurate. Your summary though leaves out that while the inverted pentagram is seen as an evil symbol, it is not seen as that by everyone or all the time (the article gives the use in Wiccan 2nd Degree as a counter-example).

segarox

Thanks for the help guys and the encouragement but I won't be starting on it until after my repeat exams are over.