Scary stats

Tim Robbins

Hi,
This came up in another thread. A break down by the number of killings by God:

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006/08/how-many-has-god-killed.html

As an atheist who doesn't believe in this anyway, I am perplexed that
a) people believe this God exists
and
b) people worship this God. He seems quite evil and not fit for worship.

A question to Christians:
can you explain your position and perhaps select an option in the poll?

Tim Robbins

Why not offer your opinion as well as ticking the poll? It would be interesting to hear it.

BrianCalgary

There are currently 6,000,000,000,000 people living on earth that God created. Without him there can be no life.

How many people has God given life to over the ages?

God gives everyone a chance at life. He gave everyone in the OT strict instructions on how to live. They told God to get stuffed and went their own way. The result was death.

Mankind was like a child and needed to be taught. Now we are all grown up, we have a choice, accept Christ, result is HEaven, deny Him result is Hell.

You have no one to blame but yourself.

philologos

Lets be honest here. Most of these people were killed through judgement and protection of His people and prophets. I don't find that sickening at all to be honest with you.

Hivemind187

Jakkass wrote:

Lets be honest here. Most of these people were killed through judgement and protection of His people and prophets. I don't find that sickening at all to be honest with you.

Jackass, I'm going to come right out and say it, I find your repeated statements justify genocide to be quite frightening and I would love your permission to use you as an example of violence being condoned and encouraged by religion for others.

Is that ok?

Hivemind187

OP

I think that idea that "God" did it is erroneous. Its just put that way to make the butchery of other tribes by primitive Hebrews more palatable and less barbaric.

JimiTime

Hivemind187 wrote:

Jackass, I'm going to come right out and say it, I find your repeated statements justify genocide to be quite frightening and I would love your permission to use you as an example of violence being condoned and encouraged by religion for others.

Is that ok?

That is such a straw man!! Gods judgement is completely different to some nut-job going on a killing spree and saying 'God told me'. Or even some guy who manipulates scripture in order to show how God permits violence. Man, you are a prime example of someone who believes something (Christianity promotes violence or something), and then manipulates things to exentuate the belief. Honestly!

robindch

It's not really a straw man, Jimitime.

Jakkass is quite clearly supporting the idea of wholescale murder. His intense belief that his opinion is perfect and his interpretation is faultless has removed the ethical compass that most of us have. You can see the results of similar extreme and unyielding self-belief in the minds of suicide bombers -- all of them susceptible young males -- who roam the streets of the Middle East carrying out the Divine Will of a god with a different name.

As Hivemind says, this kind of ability to "justify" murder is frightening and it scares the hell out of me -- I certainly wouldn't like to be stuck with somebody with opinions like that when the going gets tough. Who knows what other mad, murderous delusions might be cooked up?

BrianCalgary

robindch wrote:

It's not really a straw man, Jimitime.

Jakkass is quite clearly supporting the idea of wholescale murder. His intense belief that his opinion is perfect and his interpretation is faultless has removed the ethical compass that most of us have. You can see the results of similar extreme and unyielding self-belief in the minds of suicide bombers -- all of them susceptible young males -- who roam the streets of the Middle East carrying out the Divine Will of a god with a different name.

As Hivemind says, this kind of ability to "justify" murder is frightening and it scares the hell out of me -- I certainly wouldn't like to be stuck with somebody with opinions like that when the going gets tough. Who knows what other mad, murderous delusions might be cooked up?

Jsut curious on your thoughts on this question: don't you think that we all justify our actions, both good and bad? ie, any murderer has theabilitry to justify the murder or killing be it for religious or secular reasons?

philologos

I'm apparently made out to be the exact same as a suicide bomber for supporting the view that if these people had infact changed their ways and obeyed God, that this wouldn't have happened. God also intended for this to stay in the mind of those of future generations also so that they would reject sin. The simple principle, that those who do right will be rewarded and those who do wrong will be punished is a fact of life.

Hivemind: I don't encourage violence. I'd prefer the idea of Matthew 26:52 (look it up yourself).

robindch

Jakkass wrote:

I'm apparently made out to be the exact same as a suicide bomber for supporting the view that if these people had infact changed their ways and obeyed God, that this wouldn't have happened.

No, you are justifying mass murder. Plain and simple. Your deity didn't carry out the majority of these killings -- ordinary people did and you are justifying it.

Bottle_of_Smoke

Bit of a silly thread. If you believe a God is all knowing you'd obviously accept everything he does by default.

philologos

robindch: How is believing that scripture is just and true in any way a comparison to suicide bombings. Something which is a gross manipulation of all things that causes innocents to die as well as the guilty. Who am I to take away someones life in the first place? It's completely illogical because, the Lord does not kill out of fun, and it is His job to judge us equally, to divide the good from the bad. The Exile of the Jewish people (Israel to Assyria, and Judah to the Babylonians) was meant to be the ultimate mark of where wrongdoing will bring you. To punishment. I don't particularly care if you disagree, I'm entitled to my opinion without being seen as a genocidal maniac. I've expressed my views on violence by encouraging Hivemind to take a look at Matthew 26:52. I personally hope as many people as possible will be spared this punishment, all they have to do is follow the command of the Bible.

Red Hand

They left out Sodom and Gomorah? Or maybe I missed them...two whole cities must be worth a few more...

Hmmmm...if suicide bombers said that God had spoken to them directly, and told them unequivically that everyone that would be killed by them is guilty by God then that would be ok? Killing is killing in my view, whether by God, or by man-only acceptable really in instances of extreme self-defense (where you feel you will die if the other guy isn't taken out).

philologos

I wonder if we did a tot up of all the people killed by men throughout the history of the world, would this be even comparable to it. It is a reasonable point to make I think. Or killed in other major faiths such as Hinduism (Krishna is even believed to be at a battle in the Bhagavad Gita), Islam (the Prophet Muhammad and his conquests in Arabia, and indeed the atrocities carried out by extremist followers), and other faiths.

Galvasean

I think an omnipotent God should be able to come up with better ways of solving problems than killing loads of people. Just my two cents.

Galvasean

Jakkass wrote:

I wonder if we did a tot up of all the people killed by men throughout the history of the world, would this be even comparable to it.

I don't like that line of thinking. its like saying, "Yeah Ted Bundy killed lots of people but his kill count isn't comparable to Hitler's so lets let Bundy off the hook".

robindch

Jakkass wrote:

How is believing that scripture is just and true in any way a comparison to suicide bombings. Something which is a gross manipulation of all things that causes innocents to die as well as the guilty.

You have missed my main point completely. Both you and suicide bombers have declared that your own specific personal interpretation of your own specific holy books is completely infallible. Suicide bombers murder people indiscriminately in exactly the same way that your deity murders whole tribes, towns and countries, and both you and the suicide bombers support and attempt to justify indiscriminate murder.

You either find indiscriminate murder as abominable as hivemind and I do, or, like you, you don't "find that sickening at all". And as I said before, being near somebody who doesn't find mass murder "sickening" (and even tries to justify it) scares the bejesus out of me.

Your defence that your deity murdered fewer people than all of humanity put together stretches credulity many miles past breaking point.

Hivemind187

Matthew 26:52 - Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

... and? Exactly what is your point Jackass?

Quoting bible verse at me doesnt get you off the hook for trying to justify mass slaughter.

Either you stand by your point and I can quote you or you do not stand by your point and are conceeding the argument.

Hivemind187

JimiTime wrote:

That is such a straw man!! Gods judgement is completely different to some nut-job going on a killing spree and saying 'God told me'. Or even some guy who manipulates scripture in order to show how God permits violence. Man, you are a prime example of someone who believes something (Christianity promotes violence or something), and then manipulates things to exentuate the belief. Honestly!

It is in no way a straw man.

Jakkass claimed that there is nothing reprehensible or abominable about the slaughters in the bible by the hand of God. These atrocities were carried about by human beings in the name of God - EXACTLY like any suicide bomber or loony crusader from the 14th century.

His point is he finds nothing wrong with such behaviour which means that, to himi, devine retribution meeted out in the name of god by the hands of mere mortals is fine and dandy - That is sick no matter which way you cut it because it suggests that the vileness of a murder is somehow contingent on the theosophic context e.g. Religious Genocide is ok but shooting a burglar is not.

Hivemind187

BrianCalgary wrote:

Jsut curious on your thoughts on this question: don't you think that we all justify our actions, both good and bad? ie, any murderer has theabilitry to justify the murder or killing be it for religious or secular reasons?

Yes, but the position Jakkass takes is that wholesale slaughter of men women and children is perfectly alright if it is in the name of "God" - not just ANY god though, specifically a Judeo Christian God.

So tough luck for the Caananites and worshipers of Baal - you get to be wiped out in the name of Yahweh because he has decided you arent his "kind of guys".

Sangre

BrianCalgary wrote:

There are currently 6,000,000,000,000 people living on earth that God created. Without him there can be no life.

How many people has God given life to over the ages?

God gives everyone a chance at life. He gave everyone in the OT strict instructions on how to live. They told God to get stuffed and went their own way. The result was death.

Mankind was like a child and needed to be taught. Now we are all grown up, we have a choice, accept Christ, result is HEaven, deny Him result is Hell.

You have no one to blame but yourself.

Eh...ok.

So a mother who has had 8 children is allowed to kill one of them because she had given them strict instructions on how to live. The kid told his mother to get stuff and went his own way. The result was death.

The child was like a child and needed to be taught.

The child has no one to blame but himself.

Hivemind187

People are focussing too much on theis pseudo father figure image of God.

We are talking creator of all things here not some patriarch doling out corporal punishments.

God is omniescient - he knows everything can has been, is and will be and thereforeis punishing us for something he was aware of and could have circumvented by intervention.

I hereby accuse god of being guilty of causing the problem he is punishing people for by his own deliberate contrivance and inaction where he had fore knowledge of an event.

philologos

God the Father is seen as the creator. You can't ignore Christian philosophy when you are discussing the Bible. He's even portrayed as a father figure.

Jeremiah 31:9 wrote:

"My people will return weeping,
praying as I lead them back.
I will guide them to streams of water,
on a smooth road where they will not stumble,
I am like a father to Israel, and Ephraim my eldest son."

What do you think that means?

Hivemind187

Jakkass wrote:

God the Father is seen as the creator thing. You can't ignore Christian philosophy when you are discussing the Bible. He's even portrayed as a father figure.


What do you think that means?

... that you want your cake and to eat it to.

A father may punish his son for a crime the son comits.

A creator has no business punishing a sin that he is responsible for by creating both sin, perpetrator and the predestination to do so (implied by the doctrine of the 3 omni's)

Red Hand

Jakkass wrote:

God the Father is seen as the creator. You can't ignore Christian philosophy when you are discussing the Bible. He's even portrayed as a father figure.

Originally Posted by Jeremiah 31:9
"My people will return weeping,
praying as I lead them back.
I will guide them to streams of water,
on a smooth road where they will not stumble,
I am like a father to Israel, and Ephraim my eldest son."


What do you think that means?

You know very well that I was quoted out of context there.:)

Sorry, couldn't resist!

DerKaiser

I was a something else, please state:
This God left a gargantuan trail of destruction behind him, it doesn't suprise me that christians accept and worship this god and make sickening statements like YOU DESERVED IT FOR TURNING YOUR BACK ON GOD!!!

But like I said it doesn't surprise me, as this is the faith that tried to outdo their god in the killing stats, witch burning, the spanish inquisition, the salem witch trials, the ku klux klan, this is the good faith?

Jesus was amazing and said some incredible things, but for 2000 years christiantianity has been killing everyone who doesn't worship him and even killing each other because they can't decide how he said it.

Thou shalt not kill. Unless there's a good reason.

Hivemind187

DerKaiser wrote:

I was a something else, please state:
This God left a gargantuan trail of destruction behind him, it doesn't suprise me that christians accept and worship this god and make sickening statements like YOU DESERVED IT FOR TURNING YOUR BACK ON GOD!!!

But like I said it doesn't surprise me, as this is the faith that tried to outdo their god in the killing stats, witch burning, the spanish inquisition, the salem witch trials, the ku klux klan, this is the good faith?

Jesus was amazing and said some incredible things, but for 2000 years christiantianity has been killing everyone who doesn't worship him and even killing each other because they can't decide how he said it.

Thou shalt not kill. Unless there's a good reason.

IF he existed at all.

and its Thou Shalt not Kill ... unless Jakkass says its ok

robindch

DerKaiser wrote:

Jesus was amazing and said some incredible things

I must say that I disagree. None of what Jesus is quoted as saying in the bible is very exceptional, even by the standards of first century Palestine. The few decent things that he's quoted as saying were, on the whole, said more elegantly by other, earlier, people and some of what he's quoted as saying borders on the unpleasant and he's frequently incomprehensible.

philologos

Hivemind187 wrote:

IF he existed at all.

and its Thou Shalt not Kill ... unless Jakkass says its ok

When did I ever say that? If you're not up for a serious discussion that's fine. I can only work from the Biblical narrative. I have no authority to claim what is right or wrong, that is God's decision to make. I choose to accept his commands, thats the height of it. It's not me saying what is acceptable or not acceptable that is up for all of you to decide by yourselves. I have chosen Christianity thats why I choose to follow Judeo-Christian principles. I'd like it if this discussion wouldn't be taken so personally.

Hivemind187

Jakkass wrote:

When did I ever say that? If you're not up for a serious discussion that's fine. I can only work from the Biblical narrative. I have no authority to claim what is right or wrong, that is God's decision to make. I choose to accept his commands, thats the height of it. It's not me saying what is acceptable or not acceptable that is up for all of you to decide by yourselves. I have chosen Christianity thats why I choose to follow Judeo-Christian principles. I'd like it if this discussion wouldn't be taken so personally.

Relax Jakkass, its called getting "zinged" and is not malevolent. It is a reference to your previous mention that you saw nothing wrong with the wholesale slaughter of men women and children in the name of devine retribution and gods "love".

But of course, we cant poke fun at YOUR comprehension of the universe, can we?

philologos

I didn't poke fun of anyone elses view of the universe, not even your own. So I expect to be treated with the same level of respect if thats not too much to ask.

Hivemind187

robindch wrote:

I must say that I disagree. None of what Jesus is quoted as saying in the bible is very exceptional, even by the standards of first century Palestine. The few decent things that he's quoted as saying were, on the whole, said more elegantly by other, earlier, people and some of what he's quoted as saying borders on the unpleasant and he's frequently incomprehensible.

I have to agree.

Much of the stuff attributed to him is airy fairy and contray to human nature and rationality.

Turn the other cheek - conveniently ommitting the instinct for revenge.

Love thy neighbour (which i have pointed out in the past refers only to other jews) - makes no sense when that neighbour doesnt love you or you feel nothing but animosity towards him.

The meek shall inheret the earth - Not blooody likely when they get wiped out wholesale by mean people with big smegging guns.

There are a lot more of these but I will point out the one of them which actually makes any sense "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"

After that there is very little that makes either sense or is useful.

In my opinion of course.

Tar.Aldarion

So all the killings in that list are acceptable?

He killed somebody for gathering sticks on the sabbath.
He killed two people for offering strange fire before him. What does that even mean and why is it a sin?
Burned people to death for offering incense, hmm, must have been the cheap stuff eh?
Killed somebody for complaining, there goes my girlfriend. Sent a lion to eat a man for not killing a prophet. Sent two bears to kill children for making fun of Elisha's bald head.


That sounds like somebody worthy of worshiping does it? or somebody to worship out of fear?

robindch

hivemind wrote:

There are a lot more of these but I will point out the one of them which actually makes any sense "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone!"

An unfortunate choice. Based upon textual research, it's been claimed that this story was an addition by much later scribes. One of the better guys on this topic is Bart Ehrman who wrote the book Misquoting Jesus. Here's Bart on biblical inerrancy:

http://research.unc.edu/endeavors/spr2006/feature_05.php

The page also includes a scan of an interesting note in the margin of the Codex Vaticanus, the earliest copy of the full NT, in which a scribe wrote "Fool and knave, leave the old reading, don’t change it!". Which he reasonably assumes to imply that scribes were known to make changes to the text while they were writing it.

BTW, Ehrman used to be an evangelical christian and learned biblical Greek and I believe Hebrew to get to know the bible better. But he became very suspicious of the textual accuracy of the bible once he was able to read it in the original:

Ehrman wrote:

“After all this fancy footwork trying to interpret away this problem, the simplest solution is that it’s just a mistake,” he says. “This opened up the floodgates. Once you acknowledge there could be mistakes, you start finding them everywhere.”

DerKaiser

Jakkass wrote:

I can only work from the Biblical narrative.
QUOTE]


Uh-oh, scary christian

Hivemind187

robindch wrote:

An unfortunate choice. Based upon textual research, it's been claimed that this story was an addition by much later scribes. One of the better guys on this topic is Bart Ehrman who wrote the book Misquoting Jesus. Here's Bart on biblical inerrancy:

http://research.unc.edu/endeavors/spr2006/feature_05.php

The page also includes a scan of an interesting note in the margin of the Codex Vaticanus, the earliest copy of the full NT, in which a scribe wrote "Fool and knave, leave the old reading, don’t change it!". Which he reasonably assumes to imply that scribes were known to make changes to the text while they were writing it.

BTW, Ehrman used to be an evangelical christian and learned biblical Greek and I believe Hebrew to get to know the bible better. But he became very suspicious of the textual accuracy of the bible once he was able to read it in the original:

Thanks Rob, I didnt know that - must look up more of that particualr author.

Personally, I don't actually believe in the historical "christ" and its things lilke this that further compound my sneaking suspicion that he is little more than a literary device, a waling metaphor if you will.

Tim Robbins

Hivemind187 wrote:

Thanks Rob, I didnt know that - must look up more of that particualr author.

Personally, I don't actually believe in the historical "christ" and its things lilke this that further compound my sneaking suspicion that he is little more than a literary device, a waling metaphor if you will.

Josephus, Tactitus and the Gnostic Gospels all mention Christ, Jesus or something along those lines. In conjunction with that, I think if you read the Canonical Gospels themselves they would point to this person existing.

MooseJam

I have to say I find the views of Jakkass abhorrent, it's frightening to find such views alive and well in 21st century Ireland

MooseJam

oops double post

philologos

You thought it was abhorrent from stage one to believe in Christianity lets be fair, thats what this topic was assuming all along. To be honest with you a lot of this thread has been putting words in my mouth as opposed to me actually saying it. I've been accused of supporting genocide and jihadism and I'm just supposed to accept it and let people ridicule me for it though. I'm a monster for believing the Bible I suppose, I'm fed up of being demonised just because I don't accept the same views as the secularist lobby (or so it seems to be) on boards.

Fanny Cradock

Come on lads, there's still room on the bandwagon!

This thread, from its title to the emotive and leading poll options, is clearly skewed in a certain direction. If one was actually looking for a genuine answer from Christians to a difficult aspect of our faith then this was never the way of going about it.

robindch

jakkass wrote:

I've been accused of supporting genocide and jihadism

Well, you're trying to justify, rather than condemn, the slaughter in and that shows to me that you support it? Or are we misunderstanding you and you unreservedly condemn the murder of at least some innocent people? You've also said that you're not "sickened" by the stories, so that kind of indicates that you don't feel much empathy with the murdered either -- doesn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Tim Robbins

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Come on lads, there's still room on the bandwagon!

This thread, from its title to the emotive and leading poll options, is clearly skewed in a certain direction. If one was actually looking for a genuine answer from Christians to a difficult aspect of our faith then this was never the way of going about it.

I gave as many options as possible and another option with "please state". However most people who voted for that can't seem to state their reason.

Why not explain exactly what's wrong with the poll rather than just assert it's wrong?

Hivemind187

Tim Robbins wrote:

Josephus, Tactitus and the Gnostic Gospels all mention Christ, Jesus or something along those lines. In conjunction with that, I think if you read the Canonical Gospels themselves they would point to this person existing.

Which are all written at different points by different people.

Are you going to deny the mythological parallels between Jesus and other "prophets" and "magicians" throughout history?

Hivemind187

Jakkass wrote:

You thought it was abhorrent from stage one to believe in Christianity lets be fair, thats what this topic was assuming all along. To be honest with you a lot of this thread has been putting words in my mouth as opposed to me actually saying it. I've been accused of supporting genocide and jihadism and I'm just supposed to accept it and let people ridicule me for it though. I'm a monster for believing the Bible I suppose, I'm fed up of being demonised just because I don't accept the same views as the secularist lobby (or so it seems to be) on boards.

No one straw manned you Jakkass. You said it. You cant claim otherwise.

Now if you still support the comment I can quote you on it and if you dont, please state as much.

Its very simple. Either you believe that genocide, sectarian murder and violence and scripture or religious based punishment is ok or you dont.

Fanny Cradock

Hivemind187 wrote:

Are you going to deny the mythological parallels between Jesus and other "prophets" and "magicians" throughout history?

Expand on this, please. I'd be interested to see what you come up with.

philologos

robindch wrote:

Well, you're trying to justify, rather than condemn, the slaughter in and that shows to me that you support it? Or are we misunderstanding you and you unreservedly condemn the murder of at least some innocent people? You've also said that you're not "sickened" by the stories, so that kind of indicates that you don't feel much empathy with the murdered either -- doesn't it? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I condemn the murders of innocents. But these people weren't innocent if you read largely what they were all doing. The worst of these things being the murder and oppression of people even within their own societies. Of course I condemn the killings of innocents. The prophets and the other people who continued to worship in God were saved.

Hivemind187

Fanny Cradock wrote:

Expand on this, please. I'd be interested to see what you come up with.

Osiris, Dionysus, Mithras, Hercules and a bunch of other characters appearing in a number of others religions and superstitions.

The concept of the god/man is a borrowed idea anyway.

Born the son of a god. Went to hell for a brief stint. Capable of superhuman feats. Rising from the dead. All of these have previous examples and direct parallels in earlier mythologies.

In fairness it has been a long time since I did any research on the topic but look at the evidence objectively.

Being born, dying and then rising from the dead is an example of Pagan seasonal belief (the death of winter giving birth to the life of spiring and summer before the decay and death of autumn and winter again).

Lao Tzu, Dionysus, Montezuma and Anakin Skywalker were all virgin births - a concept that appears in dozens of earlier and pagan belief systems.

Many other things from the "water in to wine" party trick to "walking on water" to raising the dead (which is bleedin' voodoo 'init - kidding)

Hivemind187

Jakkass wrote:

I condemn the murders of innocents. But these people weren't innocent if you read largely what they were all doing. The worst of these things being the murder and oppression of people even within their own societies. Of course I condemn the killings of innocents. The prophets and the other people who continued to worship in God were saved.

Murder and oppression?

You mean like what the Israelites did to the peoples they conquered? Or Christians did to other cultures for hundreds of years?

Tim Robbins

Hivemind187 wrote:

Which are all written at different points by different people.

Are you going to deny the mythological parallels between Jesus and other "prophets" and "magicians" throughout history?

No.