On-the-spot litter fines to increase from €125 to €150

Heinrich

Gormley will clean up those butts. Smokers outside pubs beware!:D

Increasing fines that will never be applied is anothe load of wittering fron the jolly green giant in Leinster House! Maybe he should be employing litter wardens instead of this posturing!

Irish Independent. July 23 2007


Environment Minister John Gormley has announced an increase in on-the-spot litter fines from €125 to €150.


The move is part of a new initiative aimed at cracking down on litter louts.

The Department of the Environment is also allocating almost €1m in grants to local authorities to help raise awareness of the litter issue.

Mr Gormley says cigarette butts account for more than half of all litter on Irish streets, followed by food and packaging on 26% and 13% respectively.

Z

I can only hope that the police are given the power and the tools to escort people to ATMs to actually enforce those fines.

mickoneill30

Who enforces this? I've never seen a litter warden. Are they in disguise? I have seen and do see every day people chucking rubbish on the ground (walking that couple of metres to a bin seems to be too much effort for a lot of people). I'm sure it wouldn't take great detective work to catch a few of these.

Might as well put the fine to a million for all the use it will do to have a fine and not have it enforced.

mike65

True wardens should be employed on a payment per hit basis on top of basic.

Mike.

John_C

What's the proceadure for fining someone? Can a garda demand money off you on the spot, does it go to court or is there some other mechanism?

Victor

It works like a parking ticket. Pay early and you don't go to court.

themurt

Isn't this the very same as adding new offences to the penalty points system - effectively useless without enforcement? I've never seen a litter warden nor have I ever heard of anyone getting penalty points for crossing a continuous white line, not obeying lane markings, etc... enforcement is the key issue here - if the fine was really high but only the same number of offenders are caught then this is purely a revenue generation issue and not an effective deterrent nor a real attempt to clean up the litter problem.

I doubt anyone who litters is going to pay much attention to the higher fine as they probably didn't care about the fine in the first place, nor will they unless the likelihood of the fine being applied increases.

Heinrich

Imagine a litter warden (rare breed) nailing someone for dumping cigarette butts outside the Belcamp or the Towers? How far would he get with the €150 if he actually got to fine someone.

The chap spittin out the gum as he crosses O'Connell Bridge along with the thousand other pedestrians will rot in some dungeon for his misdeeds.

Aw, Good ol' Gormley, never short of good ideas. Thankfully he will be paying the small levy for the airtrip carbon emissions and will use the NY metro instead of ministerial cars. The rain will stop shortly thanks to the Greens.

Zombrex

mickoneill30 wrote:

Who enforces this? I've never seen a litter warden. Are they in disguise?

Was about to say the same thing

I've never seen or even heard of anyone, ever, being done for littering. And I see people littering I would say on average 4 or 5 times a day, mostly kids.

I would be interested in any official statistics about how many people were actually done for littering in 2006

John_C

Victor wrote:

It works like a parking ticket. Pay early and you don't go to court.

I'd say that's the reason for the low level of enforcement then. I doubt any garda would issue a ticket if it meant he might have to go in to court over it.

Dave!

That 25 quid should make all the difference.

Drax

Absolutely useless.
Hows about signing up a few more litter wardens and actually enforcing something in this country instead of coming up with hair brained ideas.

mike65

The reason the fine only went up €25 is because to raise it more would require changing the current legistation and everyones on holliday.

Mike.

Heinrich

mike65 wrote:

The reason the fine only went up €25 is because to raise it more would require changing the current legistation and everyones on holliday.

Mike.

Indeed! It will not make a blind bit of difference when they come back from their holidays either. Laws that are not enforced and upheld are useless!

What does a litter warden look like. Does he/she have a uniform and if that is the case what colour is it?
How many of this rare species are roaming the streets and how is their authority maintained?

Hagar

[Rant]

Empty the litter bins, not once a day, not twice a day but as often as required so that people have somewhere to put their litter. How many bins are full and overflowing onto the pavements right now? And who's fault is it? Asking people to "put litter in it's place" as the slogan goes is a joke if there is no place to put it. Councils, Corporations wake up to the reality, the streetcleaners and binmen aren't doing their jobs and neither are you. Stop putting the blame on the public and stop trying to hide your ineptitude with bigger fines that you will never enforce.

[/Rant]

Heinrich

Hagar wrote:

[Rant]

Empty the litter bins, not once a day, not twice a day but as often as required so that people have somewhere to put their litter. How many bins are full and overflowing onto the pavements right now? And who's fault is it? Asking people to "put litter in it's place" as the slogan goes is a joke if there is no place to put it. Councils, Corporations wake up to the reality, the streetcleaners and binmen aren't doing their jobs and neither are you. Stop putting the blame on the public and stop trying to hide your ineptitude with bigger fines that you will never enforce.

[/Rant]

Oh dear me Hagar, you have been living in France too long! Emptying bins as often as required - whatever next? The binmen have to be paid and that would cost more money. Then the state coffers would not be quite so awash with money.

If I arrive at the bring center and the bins are full I have to bring the stuff home. If we were to pay for a proper infrastructure the counrty would go broke. By skrimping on public transport, health service, parks and gardens etc money is not being spent. We have people here in our estate and indeed all over the country sweeping outside the houses, planting shrubs and flowers ouside and putting up hanging baskets on the street lamposts. Do they do that in France?

Hagar

No need to really, you pay your taxes and the council do their jobs. Simple system really.

Heinrich

There was a slogan on the litter bins in Val d'Isere some years ago - "nettoyer c'est bien, ne pas salir c'est mieux!
"Cleaning is goo, not dirtying is better".

Heinrich

Hagar wrote:

No need to really, you pay your taxes and the council do their jobs. Simple system really.

Works in France but here the money is needed in the coffers to make up for the gross inefficiency of the Government and the myriad of committees and bodies they set up as red herrings to hide their failings (HSE anyone)!

CreepingDeath

John_C wrote:

What's the proceadure for fining someone? Can a garda demand money off you on the spot, does it go to court or is there some other mechanism?

Maybe they can clamp people who litter
You'll see people hobbling to the nearest ATM with a big clamp on one of their feet.

blah

CreepingDeath wrote:

Maybe they can clamp people who litter
You'll see people hobbling to the nearest ATM with a big clamp on one of their feet.

I would work for free as a litterer clamper!

Breezer

Gonna shed some light on this. You'd be surprised at the number of people who get fined for littering (I'll get a statistic for you when I'm on work on Monday), and at least where I live, the fines are followed up with prosecutions if not paid.

The thing is, fines aren't normally issued to people dropping stuff on the street because in order to do that, the warden has to actually be present at the time, and there simply aren't enough of them. There are 5 in my county, for example. The guards can also issue litter fines but basically they don't, I think we've had 1 issued by the guards in the last 2 months.

Normally what happens is when people dump bags of stuff they ring the county council, the litter warden investigates and if there's anything in the bags to identify the dumper, a fine is issued. Fines can also be issued for things like overflowing skips, advertising by placing flyers on cars or sticking up unauthorised signs on traffic signs.

The only time you'd really be done for dropping something on the street (such as a cigarette butt) is if you do it out a car window because your reg number can be traced.

The system is ineffective but better than no system IMO. What we really need, though, is a change of attitude. The reason France and Germany are cleaner isn't because laws are enforced better, it's because people don't break the laws in the first place.

More resources would need to be allocated to make the system effective. The problem is, on the one hand you have people saying 'allocate more resources' and on the other hand you have the same people switching over to private refuse collectors etc. because they're cheaper. The money has to come from somewhere.

Before you all jump down my throat for being a lazy ass council worker with job security for life and doesn't care about the public etc. please note I'm just a college student working there for the summer, I have no power to change the system, I do my best to work it as efficiently as possible and I'm merely reporting how these things work.

Hagar

Breezer wrote:

The reason France and Germany are cleaner isn't because laws are enforced better, it's because people don't break the laws in the first place.

That old line is hawked out time and again but it doesn't hold water.
Why would a government enact a law against littering if people weren't already littering?

The <insert nationality here> used to litter but law rigourous law enforcement and education from school-level upwards moulded their attitudes. Add to that council workers who actualllly sweep up the streets properly instead of vaguely waving a brush about and you have a winning combination.

cyclopath2001

Breezer wrote:

The only time you'd really be done for dropping something on the street (such as a cigarette butt) is if you do it out a car window because your reg number can be traced.

That reminds me, I was once cycling up a cycle lane with a line of stopped cars on my outside. Passenger throws out a lit cigarette, lands directly in front of me. I picked it up and handed it back, politely, still lit: "you dropped this". There was a scraem from the (female) passenger, followed by the sight of her boyfriend bouncing up and down against the roof of his car with rage & frustration as he was stuck in traffic. When the lights changed, he nearly stalls the car jumping his gears & then almost collides with another trying to chase me down before catching up with me just at Pearse Street Garda Station, when he suddenly calms down, maybe thinking of what kind of explanation he'd have to give the Gardaí: "Well Garda, it was self-defense me mot threw out a cigarette butt and I was trying to run over the guy who tossed it back..."

Fine them? Just chuck it back where it came from.

Breezer

cyclopath2001 wrote:

That reminds me, I was once cycling up a cycle lane with a line of stopped cars on my outside. Passenger throws out a lit cigarette, lands directly in front of me. I picked it up and handed it back, politely, still lit: "you dropped this". There was a scraem from the (female) passenger, followed by the sight of her boyfriend bouncing up and down against the roof of his car with rage & frustration as he was stuck in traffic. When the lights changed, he nearly stalls the car jumping his gears & then almost collides with another trying to chase me down before catching up with me just at Pearse Street Garda Station, when he suddenly calms down, maybe thinking of what kind of explanation he'd have to give the Gardaí: "Well Garda, it was self-defense me mot threw out a cigarette butt and I was trying to run over the guy who tossed it back..."

Fine them? Just chuck it back where it came from.

I like it, I'll suggest it to the lads at work As for why France and Germany have anti-litter laws, of course there's got to be an element of enforcement, I'm not saying for one minute that every French or German person is a saint who will never litter, smoke around other people or drive too fast down the autobahn. But the general mindset when it comes to the environment is different - Europeans tend to do things because they see it as being the right thing to do, Irish people tend to do it in case they get caught. You can see the same attitude in politics, where 'the fella who got away with it' is seen as something of a hero rather than someone who used others and/or broke the law for personal gain.

That said, we do need reform in the public service. From what I can see most people working there genuinely care about providing a service but the way the system is set up everything has to go through so many departments before anything can be done, it's bound to hit a roadblock in the form of someone who couldn't care less at some point.

Example: you report litter in the street. Someone takes the phone call and logs the complaint. A litter warden investigates the matter and confirms the complaint. Someone logs the confirmation. Someone else in a different section sees the logged confirmation and refers it on to a third section, where the person in charge sends a roadsweeper out. Madness. Add to that the still common practice of people being promoted on length of service and the fact that no one is made to account for their actions, plus the fact that anyone genuinely motivated is seen to be showing up and creating hassle for their less motivated colleagues and you see a potentially good system grinding to a halt.

Hopefully Gormley can get his local government reform working and extended to the administrative sections of local councils. This would be far more useful than directly elected mayors.

cyclopath2001

Breezer wrote:

refers it on to a third section, where the person in charge sends a roadsweeper out.

Last winter, the cycle track in Fairview was in a dangerous condition due to a slippery coating of mud and wet leaves. This happens every year as no cleaning is done from the time the first leaf falls in September until the very last one falls in February. I looked up the Dublin City Council web site to find 'street cleaning' and I could not find any useful contact details. It seems like you need to know the 'magic words' to find out anything.

billy the squid

The on-the-spot fines are only really enforcable when it comes to illegally dumped household waste. They will rummage through the iillegally dumped refuse sacks until they find a phone bill or an envelope with your address on it.

It is circumstantial, however the courts seem to accept it as evidence.

cyclopath2001

billy the squid wrote:

The on-the-spot fines are only really enforcable when it comes to illegally dumped household waste.

Stand at any bus-stop or Luas platform and you'll see lots of people flicking their cigarette butts on the ground.

Lissavane

Breezer wrote:

Gonna shed some light on this. You'd be surprised at the number of people who get fined for littering (I'll get a statistic for you when I'm on work on Monday), and at least where I live, the fines are followed up with prosecutions if not paid.

The thing is, fines aren't normally issued to people dropping stuff on the street because in order to do that, the warden has to actually be present at the time, and there simply aren't enough of them. There are 5 in my county, for example. The guards can also issue litter fines but basically they don't, I think we've had 1 issued by the guards in the last 2 months.

Normally what happens is when people dump bags of stuff they ring the county council, the litter warden investigates and if there's anything in the bags to identify the dumper, a fine is issued. Fines can also be issued for things like overflowing skips, advertising by placing flyers on cars or sticking up unauthorised signs on traffic signs.

The only time you'd really be done for dropping something on the street (such as a cigarette butt) is if you do it out a car window because your reg number can be traced.

The system is ineffective but better than no system IMO. What we really need, though, is a change of attitude. The reason France and Germany are cleaner isn't because laws are enforced better, it's because people don't break the laws in the first place.

More resources would need to be allocated to make the system effective. The problem is, on the one hand you have people saying 'allocate more resources' and on the other hand you have the same people switching over to private refuse collectors etc. because they're cheaper. The money has to come from somewhere.

Before you all jump down my throat for being a lazy ass council worker with job security for life and doesn't care about the public etc. please note I'm just a college student working there for the summer, I have no power to change the system, I do my best to work it as efficiently as possible and I'm merely reporting how these things work.

I disagree. I have traveled in the countries you mention and also in Denmark and Sweden. In each of those countries there is an active policy of litter REMOVAL by the authorities.

That, in conjunction with enforcement, seems to work. In Ireland I regularly see roadside grass-cutting under local authority auspices, where they mow over plastic bottles, bags, leavings from take-aways etc.. Net result is - you can see the garbage that was previously hidden. And worse - they've mowed it into shreds, so it will be harder for any good citizen to pick up.

Bottom line: in Ireland the environment is seen as a money maker. Farmers want REPS payments to maintain drains and refrain from burning plastic - stuff any self respecting farmer would do anyway. Local Authorities use environmental excuses to do less work themselves and raise revenue by gouging people into using recycling bins, while most of it still goes to landfill.

cyclopath2001

Lissavane wrote:

I disagree. I have traveled in the countries you mention and also in Denmark and Sweden. In each of those countries there is an active policy of litter REMOVAL by the authorities.

What happens in those countries if you drop a cigarette butt in front of an ordinary, decent citizen?

Heinrich

cyclopath2001 wrote:

What happens in those countries if you drop a cigarette butt in front of an ordinary, decent citizen?

In Switzerland - nothing!