Energy efficient downlights

JimiMac

I need to get 48 downlights soon. I would like an energy efficient solution and one that is reasonably future-proof.
I have read recent threads on the subject but I am a bit confused.
I was initially thinking of getting GU10 cfl's but I know there has been a lot of discussion on the leds.
Some of the bulbs mentioned have included:
megaman gu10's
gu10 90 degree 4.4w warm white
mr16 www4
3w luxeon
cree
super leds, etc
I was wondering if anybody would have any recommendations on the various options.

I have also read that some of the energy efficient bulbs stick out a bit. I have also read (somewhere?) that you can get light fittings that will take either type of bulb without them sticking out.
I think someone also posted that whilst the megaman bulbs were fine, the fittings were not great.

Just to add more confusion, I was speaking to somebody here
that said these
lights were the way to go. He said that most of the other options would be gone within a couple of years and that these new lights were the closest thing to 'real' lights. They are a bit on the expensive side. Has anybody any comments on these lights?
I would appreciate if anybody can give any pros/cons of the option they chose. If you were replacing all of your lights tomorrow, which option would you go for?

Thanks,
Jim

Stoner

JimiMac

the fittings you are looking at are fine. Note that nothing is as bright as a 12V 50W halogen. Personally I'd stick with GU10 CFL lamps, the are a little bit longer then an LED or Halogen lamp, but if you are going for straight down downlights in a recessed ceiling you should be fine. It's true that the mega man fittings are not great. I've seen people buy them and keep the lamp and lamp holder and buying a different fitting/body.

Some of the actual fittings from loweleds are great value for money, they have slightly different fittings with nice finishes (I have some of their nickel coated fittings in my house)

It comes down to price and what you want to do. The CFLs typically wont dim, (however someone (sorry I cant remember who, might have been CJHaughy) produced dimmable CFL lamps from megaman they had four step dimming)

LEDS are nice for colour change, but there are some nice warm CFL colours available,
CFLs take time to warm up, this can be a pain, the LEDs light up like an old light bulb.

I don't know if LEDs will be the only type of light available in a few years. The thing is they keep creeping up in energy consumption, 1W 3W now the one you are looking at is 6W, the CFLs are 7 W and 9W the consumption savings are being eroded IMO. And the CFLs keep getting better with their working hours expectancy.

The initial cost of all these fittings is very high, I would not spend 36 euro per fitting for something that is said to be mainstream in a year, if that the case they will be 12 euro next year.
I have to admit I have not seen the 6W LED in action, I'm going to get a sample in next week, and I'll let you know how it compares (I have many types at home and I put them up one beside the other, this is still the best way to compare lamps, particularly if there is a woman involved in the selection)

JimiMac

Hi Stoner,
thanks for the reply. Looks like I'll go for the GU10 cfl's.
Have you any suggestions on a good bulb and light fitting and the best place to buy them?

Jim

Stoner

Hi JimiMac

Megaman lamps are good, wholesalers like
T O Reillies and
http://www.kellihers.com/

should have them, as someone else advised the fittings they come with are not great, but you keep the lamp and the lamp holder, those shops will have some ok downlights, but for something a bit different and with more metal in it try
http://www.loweleds.com/inner_1.php?cPath=22&osCsid=0fcc7730676feefb7e20720a4e23c782

Their ones are good value IMO.

A phone call to ECI lighting http://www.ecilighting.ie/ would not do you any harm either, they would have some stuff off the shelf that looks better the the dutch metal efforts the wholesalers (and most people) have.

GreeBo

I got some megaman GU 10's and the fit fine in my B&Q fittings.
Im not happy with the color of the light though..its a bit too doctors office.

Going to try an LED version next

CJhaughey

I got megaman GU10 fittingss complete for 19 euro.
The fitting isn't super quality but they last a lot longer than the halogen bulbs so you won't be needing to change them very often.

JimiMac

GreeBo wrote:

I got some megaman GU 10's and the fit fine in my B&Q fittings.

do you think B&Q are good value for these lights?

GreeBo wrote:

Im not happy with the color of the light though..its a bit too doctors office.

Going to try an LED version next

Did you get the 'warm white' bulbs?

JimiMac

CJhaughey wrote:

I got megaman GU10 fittingss complete for 19 euro.

Was this including the bulb?

CJhaughey wrote:

The fitting isn't super quality but they last a lot longer than the halogen bulbs so you won't be needing to change them very often.

In what way are the fittings lacking in quality?

GreeBo

JimiMac wrote:

do you think B&Q are good value for these lights?

To be honest I hadnt looked anywhere else, I think it was ~€15 for 3 (including crappy B&Q bulbs which blew within 3 months)
The fittings are brushed SS with plastic connections but have been fine with the heat of halogens so should be fine with anything else.
Since they take any 50mm diameter bulb i reckon they are good value...

JimiMac wrote:

Did you get the 'warm white' bulbs?

Yep, the light is different though...very different than a regular bulb.
Im also worried that LED wont be bright enough at ~35W

CJhaughey

JimiMac
Yes that is the price for the bulb and fitting,
The fitting is plastic, It doesn't look as strong as he steel ones but I guess how strong does it have to be? It won't be subject to the same heat as the halogen ones.

hjsimpson

I have 9 megman 7w gu10 cfl lights in my hallway.... long and dark!
They come on at 7.00pm every evening and stay on all night (kids and things that go bump in the night!) until 9.00am .
They are in for three years and i have not changed a bulb yet.......which is good because the replacement bulb costs something like €15.
Nice light for a hall but not sure about a bigger room

Stoner

in the past year or so, megaman have added about 5000 hours to the life of their lamps, they have some nice "warm" colours. I never mentioned GU10 220V lights to the OP as IMO they are the poorest option around. They are too hot, the blow too much and are typically installed to save money on a traffo and installation of same by installers.

the Wholesalers should still be better value then B&Q.

JimiMac

Stoner wrote:

in the past year or so, megaman have added about 5000 hours to the life of their lamps, they have some nice "warm" colours. I never mentioned GU10 220V lights to the OP as IMO they are the poorest option around. They are too hot, the blow too much and are typically installed to save money on a traffo and installation of same by installers.

the Wholesalers should still be better value then B&Q.

Hi Stoner,
you obviously know a bit about lighting ...
I have come across a rule of thumb for calculating bulb sizes.
For cfl's, multiply the square area by 19 and divide by the number of lights. I end up with 33. Does this mean I only need a Cfl which is equivalent to a 33w incandescant bulb? eg a 7w cfl?
Can you please advise?
Jim

Stoner

hi JimiMac

I have never heard that rule before, sorry. Typically for buildings the light levels required are worked the other way, the expected lux levels being somewhere from about 200 Lux to 500 Lux for a room. The amount of fittings is calculated (using room index,maintenance factors, utilisation factors , fitting specs the fitting specs deal with the output of a light in terms of its lux output not wattage, wattage is just the power a fitting consumes, a particular type of light fitting can improve the luminous output of a lamp, but the wattage is constant)
but to tell you the truth once you have seen enough drawings you could nearly place them by eye. We have some computer application to help for bigger projects.
However as it's a living room, you might be going for different levels of light, maybe some for wall picutres, maybe a table lamp. If its a big room you might consider breaking it up, too many down light can make a room loook like a pub (maybe thats the whole point )
There are studies that indicate that different levels and types of light in a room create a more comfortable atmosphere. If you want you can PM or post the measurements of the room and we'll place them for you, I'd only use 9W CFLs BTW.

See here for some rough lux levels charts
http://www.lashen.com/vendors/pelco/Typical_Light_Levels.asp



If you gi

brianirl

I came across this online shop that stock CFL GU10's and 12 volt CFL's MR16 downlighters:- www.avocalite.ie Their prices are very reasonable ( cheaper than UK prices) Their delivery rates are great too, because UK delivery prices make the CFL's way too expensive.. I've trie ones before from Maplin and the quality was rubbish. I bought 11W GU10's for under a tenner from avocalite.ie and got free postage because order was over €60. Quality was excellent (Warm White better than Megaman ones I have tried). I bought some 5W 12v CFL MR16's for a display cabinet in my house too. Much better than LED's. The light is very similar to 20W Halogen. The brand was energysave. They have a website with their specs on www.energysave.ie, but I don't think they sell direct to the consumer. There's a link to http://avocalite.ie on energysave site.

GreeBo

brianirl wrote:

I bought 11W GU10's for under a tenner from avocalite.ie and got free postage because order was over €60. Quality was excellent (Warm White better than Megaman ones I have tried).

I can only see 7W on that site, do you have a direct link to the 11W?

10-10-20

brianirl wrote:

I came across this online shop that stock CFL GU10's and 12 volt CFL's MR16 downlighters:- www.avocalite.ie Their prices are very reasonable ( cheaper than UK prices) Their delivery rates are great too, because UK delivery prices make the CFL's way too expensive..

You don't work for Avocalite by any chance, do you?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055063635

CJhaughey

I have the new Megaman 11w warm white and they are perfect for me.
The colour temp is 3500k which is a nice tone and definately not CSI Autopsy light colour.
I reckon that of all the low energy bulbs I have that the megaman is the nicest.
and being honest the fact that you get the whole fitting and bulb for 19euro is a plus, just remove the original halogen fitting and stick the megaman unit in.

GreeBo

CJhaughey wrote:

I have the new Megaman 11w warm white and they are perfect for me.
The colour temp is 3500k which is a nice tone and definately not CSI Autopsy light colour.
I reckon that of all the low energy bulbs I have that the megaman is the nicest.
and being honest the fact that you get the whole fitting and bulb for 19euro is a plus, just remove the original halogen fitting and stick the megaman unit in.

Hmm this is where I got mine and it looks like hey are 3000k
Anyone know how much of a visible difference that would make?
Mine are very stark...but they should be less white than yours...

Stoner

GreeBo wrote:

Hmm this is where I got mine and it looks like hey are only 300k
Anyone know how much of a visible difference that would make?
Mine are very stark...

well 3000K is considered warm light. I have 13Watt PL lighting C88 in my hall and it is very white light the 3000K lamps in my living room from the CFLs is a warm (yellowish) light.

CJhaughey

3000k to 3500k should be warm light, by stark do you mean bright or just cold light?
I have some LED Gu10 that are cool blue in colour but I think they are round 4500k which is near daylight colour.
You have to look at the light that is projected not just the colour of the bulb as you stare at it.
Halogens are about 2700k which is extra warm white.

JimiMac

I thought I was going to go for GU10 cfls but I have been put off by people in two lighting showrooms. They reckon that I would not have enough fittings to use these.
However I am not convinced that they were doing the calculations correctly.

Does anybody know where I can get good advice on lighting requirements?

For anybody who is using cfl's, could you give an indication of the number of fittings per m2 and if you feel the light is sufficient (or too much)?

Thanks for any help,
Jim

GreeBo

CJhaughey wrote:

3000k to 3500k should be warm light, by stark do you mean bright or just cold light?
I have some LED Gu10 that are cool blue in colour but I think they are round 4500k which is near daylight colour.
You have to look at the light that is projected not just the colour of the bulb as you stare at it.
Halogens are about 2700k which is extra warm white.

I guess its extra warm we are looking for so...
Our walls are "honey white", with a halogen beside them they have a yellow tinge to them, with the CFL's they are white.

GreeBo

JimiMac wrote:

I thought I was going to go for GU10 cfls but I have been put off by people in two lighting showrooms. They reckon that I would not have enough fittings to use these.
However I am not convinced that they were doing the calculations correctly.

Does anybody know where I can get good advice on lighting requirements?

For anybody who is using cfl's, could you give an indication of the number of fittings per m2 and if you feel the light is sufficient (or too much)?

Thanks for any help,
Jim

I dont have any figures on fittings per m2, but the main difference I have seen is that the angle of lights is much larger than my original halogens.
Initially I thought the CFL's were not as bright but now I think thats just because they do not shine a focused beam onto the ground, its much more diffused.
It means the fittings that are near walls dont cast shadows like they used to.

stag39

JimiMac wrote:

I thought I was going to go for GU10 cfls but I have been put off by people in two lighting showrooms. They reckon that I would not have enough fittings to use these.
However I am not convinced that they were doing the calculations correctly.

Does anybody know where I can get good advice on lighting requirements?

For anybody who is using cfl's, could you give an indication of the number of fittings per m2 and if you feel the light is sufficient (or too much)?

Thanks for any help,
Jim

Hi JimiMac,
i went to Eurosales up in sandyford, and picked up the gu10 cfls they have, they will fit in most if not all downlighter fittings, but not in the enclosed type,

just buy ordinary gu10 connecters and you just have to widen out the spring clips to allow the whole bulb to flush into the unenclosed fitting..

by the way the bulbs last for 15,000 hrs and give the same light output as an ordinary 50watt Lv bulb/gu10 halogen, they are also warm start, and for 17euro not bad in price..

nearly forgot requirments equals the same as ordinary downlighters... just a straight swop!

GreeBo

stag39 wrote:

17euro not bad in price..

€17 a bulb???

CJhaughey

The megaman comes with bulb and fitting for €19 in one direction which isn't too bad.
The fitting swivels about º30 which is a nice touch.

GreeBo

CJhaughey wrote:

The megaman comes with bulb and fitting for €19 in one direction which isn't too bad.
The fitting swivels about º30 which is a nice touch.

What does "one direction" refer to?
I got 3 brushed satin fittings (with 50W halogens) in B&Q for €17.
They fittings take any size bulb and will also swivel º30 on one axis.
This coupled with some CFL's from tlc direct for €7.00 seems to be a good deal to me...

CJhaughey

Sorry my bad posting,
Yes that is what the megaman fittings do too,
I guess if you need satin fittings that is what you should go for, although I fitted chrome fittings and now regret it, I would prefer to go with white as they are less obtrusive.
I think the megaman fittings are available in a metal finish as well, haven't seen them but I think they are in the catalogue in the megaman box.
How much is postage from TLC?
I know that when I went to make an order with them £17 was the minimum postage which meant that you had to order a whole pile of stuff to make it worthwhile.

GreeBo

CJhaughey wrote:

Sorry my bad posting,
Yes that is what the megaman fittings do too,
I guess if you need satin fittings that is what you should go for, although I fitted chrome fittings and now regret it, I would prefer to go with white as they are less obtrusive.
I think the megaman fittings are available in a metal finish as well, haven't seen them but I think they are in the catalogue in the megaman box.
How much is postage from TLC?
I know that when I went to make an order with them £17 was the minimum postage which meant that you had to order a whole pile of stuff to make it worthwhile.

ahh swivel in one direction, get it now...
I bought 2 bulbs recently from TLC, paid £5 shipping and they arrived in 2 days.

I actually like the metal finish, I think of them as a feature even when turned off (their most efficient setting )

brianirl

Having tried lots of energy saving GU10's, this is my humble opinion. LED's are a novelty item and useless for lighting a room unless you'd like a Star Trek style Transport Room effect. Megaman CFL's are good, but overpriced. I've tried Maplin UK GU10 CFL's which lasted under a year. I'm currently using ones 11W Warmwhite which I bought from Aurora UK through my brother in England. He's had his for over 2 years and is very happy with them. Has 8 in his kitchen and notices no difference to 8 x 50W. I've had mine over 6 months and they're best I've tried. They can be seen on http://www.aurora.eu.com/prolldisplay.aspx?Group_Code=AU-GUF11/27. I think they were about £7 stg each via their eBay shop. Same ones on http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?id=52469 via EBay. Postage from UK Seller cancels out savings though, so best to get relative to post them on for about £4stg.

Summary: LED's: Rubbish . CFL's : Shop around ( 11W minimum)

Sonnenblumen

Stoner wrote:

JimiMac

the fittings you are looking at are fine. Note that nothing is as bright as a 12V 50W halogen. Personally I'd stick with GU10 CFL lamps, the are a little bit longer then an LED or Halogen lamp, but if you are going for straight down downlights in a recessed ceiling you should be fine. It's true that the mega man fittings are not great. I've seen people buy them and keep the lamp and lamp holder and buying a different fitting/body.

Some of the actual fittings from loweleds are great value for money, they have slightly different fittings with nice finishes (I have some of their nickel coated fittings in my house)

It comes down to price and what you want to do. The CFLs typically wont dim, (however someone (sorry I cant remember who, might have been CJHaughy) produced dimmable CFL lamps from megaman they had four step dimming)

LEDS are nice for colour change, but there are some nice warm CFL colours available,
CFLs take time to warm up, this can be a pain, the LEDs light up like an old light bulb.

I don't know if LEDs will be the only type of light available in a few years. The thing is they keep creeping up in energy consumption, 1W 3W now the one you are looking at is 6W, the CFLs are 7 W and 9W the consumption savings are being eroded IMO. And the CFLs keep getting better with their working hours expectancy.

The initial cost of all these fittings is very high, I would not spend 36 euro per fitting for something that is said to be mainstream in a year, if that the case they will be 12 euro next year.
I have to admit I have not seen the 6W LED in action, I'm going to get a sample in next week, and I'll let you know how it compares (I have many types at home and I put them up one beside the other, this is still the best way to compare lamps, particularly if there is a woman involved in the selection)

Nothing stands still, it's part of evolution or R&D process, you know, things getting better and more efficient. Your views are full of contradictions, eg CFL's take about 1 minute to reach full output, most are faster. CFLs are energy efficient lamps not accelerated light units, and the cost for a 15W with an equivalent light output of 70-75 W makes patent sense from a cost perspective. LEDs though energy user, are not mainstream lighting (except bill boards) and as such given their low light output levels are very limited in terms of application. On the + side they use very little electricity most < 1 or 3W. 6 W is an exception even so a very low energy usage.

Your comparison test is also a bit silly because how can you compare LEDs with CFLs with Incadescent with Halogen with metal halide etc etc? I mean would you compare cars with tractors with trucks to decide on a mode of transport. Anyways its your way but IMO its a nonsensical comparitive test.

There are many options but first you must consider the application because comparing lux level will eliminate some. Running costs or longevity might be another criteria, GU10s have a relatively short life but yet are still used extensively throughout houses even in hard to reach places like soffit boards. Only an idiot would fit such lamps in those places and how does the customer go about replacements??

Finally if you prefer to save potentially € 20 (no real proof either) by waiting a year or alternatively install an inferior fitting, well sorry but that really takes the biscuit for madness.

Assessing lamps is only part of the equation, but I do see an awful lot of poorly installed crap cheap and nasty fittings.

wasim21k

i got mine in B&Q, and they are lovely and in offer 3 for 14€:D

Stoner

Sonnenblumen wrote:

Your comparison test is also a bit silly because how can you compare LEDs with CFLs with Incadescent with Halogen with metal halide etc etc? I mean would you compare cars with tractors with trucks to decide on a mode of transport. Anyways its your way but IMO its a nonsensical comparitive test.
.

I have used and continue to use many types of lamps in both designs and installations, I did a comparison on these lamps as people ask about them from a DIY point of view, they want a straight lamp for lamp replacement. IMO LEDS can't do this yet and CFLs can.

The lux level input from a 50Watt 220Volt halogen and a 50Watt 12Volt halogen lamp are different, the 12Volt unit is far "brighter". Therefore discussing Wattage as an indication of levels of light is not accurate, the levels of light/Lux along with other personal considerations is a more accurate way to approach this.

We use LEDs for emergency lighting and Exit signage and they are very good, they are also great for signage and display.

True my post rambled, point taken, but I stand over its general meaning, this is a DIY question so discussing how good LEDS are for emergency, exit, and signage and to some degree decorative lighting has little value here, people are discussing using LEDs as a direct change to halogen lights, it is my opinion that CFLs are the only real low energy recessed spot light solution at the moment, sure the warm up time is a pain but I pointed that out to people.

Regarding my comparisons, your very well put point applies, but people here are discussing using these different types of lamps (or as you put it tractors, cars etc) for the one application, I commented on this application alone from a DIY capacity.
The thing is some people will put up with lower light levels to save money, some can't stand the warm up time for CFLs, some insist on being able to dim their lights, some don't like warm or cold light, some want their room as bright as possible.
There are many reasons over and above efficiency that form a part of the decision when choosing a lamp, I guess these issues led to some of the contradictions in my post.
Many times in a large development various light fittings with differing lamps are installed by electricians in a mock up environment located in the actual installation site, the interior designer, architect, consultant engineer, client etc. will assess this fitting in place and working and consider the switching methods, aesthetics etc.
My point being that the choice of light fitting and lamp is often made by viewing the light fitting/lamp in its intended environment, as the environment has a huge impact on the final light level and ambience created by the fitting.

I know enough from experience in working in R&D to know that nothing stands still, that’s why I use "yet" and "at the moment"
My knowledge of lighting is not limited to my "experiment" regardless of what you may or may not have assumed about me. Most people here IMO are interested in DIY and what to use in their living room when they get in from a days work.

10-10-20

LED's are going to make the jump from their pigeon-holed 'background' or highly specific applications and into the main-stream quite soon.
Part of the limiting-factor with LED's has been the light intensity per given area and this has been mainly overcome in the newer Luxeons/Cree mounted stars.

I have 3 Seoul P4's sitting on a heatsink on my bench at home and the light output from these devices at 12v & 700mA is unbelievable. The limiting factors are three-fold - the heat dissipation (approx 12w); the blue tint which is still prevalent in the center of the beam; and the power supply and current limitation design (240v AC to 12v DC @ a limited current). Other than these considerations, I have the guts of a working downlighter capable of replacing a 50w GU10.

Don't cast LED's aside!

Stoner

I'd never do that, between these posts I've just received 600 number 5mm
T1-3/4 Clear infrared LEDS for a couple of lamps I'm making myself, a decent coincidence.

10-10-20

Jasus - somebody'd going doing some night-time peepin!

Stoner

yeah, but not me !!! it's for a friend of mine, honest!;)

10-10-20

Just out of interest, what enclosure are you going to house these in and where did you get it? I was thinking about retrofitting basic light fittings from low-cost sources but this can be tricky. Any thoughts?

Stoner

last time I looked, www.besthongkong.com had empty MR16 lamp holders that you can connect your own array of LEDs too.

I am using mine to help with night vision photograhs, I have a 35 LED array in a hex shape design on my home PC, I am simply going to build each light on an 18 x 20 circuit board, and fit it into an eveready torch (about €10 c/w battery), so I'll have the battery and switch etc I'll fix on a connection to allow a 220V in PSU too.

I've copied some other guys array design TBH. I'll forward you the link if you want.

10-10-20

That website is all over the place. I can barely make head-nor-tail of it. I purchase through the German supply chains and they seem to be quite similar to this one. I didn't compare cost though.
Out of interest, send on the link for the flash-light!

I replaced a halogen tube in a vehicle worklamp with an array of 27 standard white superflux leds recently. The output is usable but if I was doing it again I'd use the 4-chip superfluxes at 9 lumens each.

faroutthere

So!..........
After reading all that I still cant decide on cfl or led.
actually are led dimmable?? that might just swing my decision.
Otherwise next to post wins!

Stoner

both CFL and LEDs are dimmable, but its not really that simple, the CFLs dimmable ones are a longer lamp, and you'll need the correct drivers to dim LEDs,

Just make sure you have GU10 lamp holders, buy one of each type of lamp and make your own mind up, it's the best way TBH.

Best of luck with it.

karltimber

Hi Stoner

after reading this thread - only realised it was from 2007 - has much changed wrt lec v cfl ?

I have 30 odd 220v 50w gu10's and wanted to change to a more energy efficient bulb for the coming winter. 15 are only ever on a one time.

any newer opinions on which to go for - led or cfl - try both first ??

thanks

K

Stoner

yes there have been some big changes. CFLs now come in two dimmable ranges, one stepped dimmer and one that has a more uniform dimming system. I don't think either one is great TBH.

LEDs have improved in output, they have more punch, but there are still issues with the spread of light IMO, note there are a number of posters with a special interest in LEDs here, consistantly new lamps are talked up and they do imporve but they are still not as "bright" as an 11W CFL IMHO.

I'd go for a mix, where you can get away with it use LEDs there are some online suppliers named in the sticky on the main electrical page. For areas where you want the most light use CFLs. You are lucky in that you have 50W GU10, not a great lamp IMO so at least you wont have to compare with 12V 50W lamps (a far "brighter" lamp) in the exchange.

The LEDS are better for the environment and the elctrical grid, they will work very well where you want to light a picture or an area where you have a good few spots (or if you don't mind shadows), try the CFLs where you want a more uniform light (and don't mind the warm up) its the warm up time that kills their new dimmable lamp IMO, when you turn the light on you have to wait for it to heat up, so you have to either wait there for it to heat up, or return to it to adjust the dimmer.

A mix would be the best option IMO

faroutthere

well,
I went with the cfl . And to be perfectly honest we are very happy with them . dont find them too white or anything. thanks for the advise stoner