Fullbore/CF

newby.204

Well im just looking to be humoured for a minute lads. In approx a year to a year and a half id like to go fullbore(with the permission of the all powerful supernintendo). Now obviously ill have to join a range, midlands i hope, eircom phone watch, infac safe i est €2250 should cover that!!

Now to the rifle, heres where the humouring part comes about, ive already decided on the scope, and come hell or high water il have it:D , with herselfs permission:( .

http://www.zeiss.com/c1256bcf0020be5f/Contents-Frame/016f810a1b69e48a852571d70037e677

Now for the rifle, im toying with either a B/A .308
http://www.accuracyinternational.com/

Or a S/A .223( however i have two in mind)
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/223/bull_24.aspx
http://www.lesbaer.com/ar223.html (third rifle down)

Now i do know a person who was granted the licence for a HK SL8-5 .223, so its not unheard of to get a S/A. I do know it would be safer to go for the .308B/A

Well lads humour me i guess, and yes i am a dreamer!!

Vegeta

all very possible if you have a decent Super

if not you may be hoop jumping

kildarejoe

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that semi auto in a centre fire rifle was not allowed in this country?
Have I been misinformed?
Would love to get a ruger mini 14 target model if semi autos are allowed.

Jonty

newby.204 wrote:

Or a S/A .223( however i have two in mind)
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/223/bull_24.aspx
http://www.lesbaer.com/ar223.html (third rifle down)


Well lads humour me i guess, and yes i am a dreamer!!

If I was a super nintendo, I'd be thinking "Mmmm... Idontlikedelookodat"

Would it be harder to convince the nintendo or herself

Vegeta

kildarejoe wrote:

Correct me if I am wrong but I was under the impression that semi auto in a centre fire rifle was not allowed in this country?
Have I been misinformed?
Would love to get a ruger mini 14 target model if semi autos are allowed.

well I have seen pictures of a semi auot owned by an Irish lad so I guess yeah they are allowed

newby.204

no they are allowed but you just have to get the right superintendant!!

bullets

Saw one of those "big black I dont like the look of those" rifles in Midlands
a while back. Dunno what make but it looked Like a Semi.

~B

Rew

Id take a bolt over a semi anyday, novelty of semi wears off peretty quick esp when your paying over 50c a pop.

Clare gunner

Well,you must have $$$ to spend,but good choices in kit. The Zeiss is ,depending on what model about 1,500/2000k worth of glass.The accruacy Intl, about 3k worth of rifle and the Bears about 2k for a basic one.
Nice thing about the 15 style rifles is you can change out the uppers for a different calibre,so if this military calibre restriction comes around you can slam a 6mm or 204 upper on it and continue shooting.That is the one thing I would favour over a turn bolt in my battery.Plus I am a left hooker,and there isnt a great selection of southpaw rifles out there in bolt action.
Can you get one ,as everyone said it is up to your Super.Are they as accurate as a bolt action?Ask any US army designated marksmen in Iraq or Ghanistan.They are using 308 AR10s to drop bad guys as good as the Marine Corps Snipers with their Remmy 700s bolt actions.
Are they expensive to run?Anything that goes Bang in Ireland is expensive to shoot:rolleyes: .50c a shot wether it is bolt action or semi costs the same,just that the semi puts them out quicker.what sort of shooting are you doing?Practical rifle,you need one.Target shooting,a bolt rifle will do just as well.Hunting frowned upon for whatever old fogey reasons.but damn good to have a quick followup shot in brush or timber.
Would I have one,?in the morning.
But for the price of the Bear,I would get it in kit form with the regd lower and build it to my specs and save a few dollars.They are not that hard to put together.

Sparks

Are they as accurate as a bolt action?

No, they're not. Never will be, euro for euro. Engineering tricks like the H&K PSP1 notwithstanding, if you have €1000 to spend on a rifle and want accuracy, get a single-shot, not a semi-auto.

As to asking snipers, why would you? They deal with minute of human, not minute of arc. Go ask target shooters if you want to know how accurate a rifle is.

Sparks

Anything that goes Bang in Ireland is expensive to shoot

My air pistol and air rifle cost me around about 1.5 cents for every bang. But I suppose that expensive is a relative term...

newby.204

I see where your coming from about the kits CG, where would i get my hands on one of those?? As in is it like buying in a rifle only its not assembled as such, ive handled ARs before, perks of the jobs, they were designed with kids in mind IMO!!!

No offemce sparks but your choice in shooting, albeit cheap just doesnt get my skirt up lol!!, im interested in fullbore large calibers, no not cos im a rambo wannabe, but because well thats what i like!!

bunny shooter

newby.204 wrote:

Well im just looking to be humoured for a minute lads. In approx a year to a year and a half id like to go fullbore(with the permission of the all powerful supernintendo). Now obviously ill have to join a range, midlands i hope, eircom phone watch, infac safe i est €2250 should cover that!!

Now to the rifle, heres where the humouring part comes about, ive already decided on the scope, and come hell or high water il have it:D , with herselfs permission:( .

http://www.zeiss.com/c1256bcf0020be5f/Contents-Frame/016f810a1b69e48a852571d70037e677

Now for the rifle, im toying with either a B/A .308
http://www.accuracyinternational.com/

Or a S/A .223( however i have two in mind)
http://www.dpmsinc.com/firearms/223/bull_24.aspx
http://www.lesbaer.com/ar223.html (third rifle down)

Now i do know a person who was granted the licence for a HK SL8-5 .223, so its not unheard of to get a S/A. I do know it would be safer to go for the .308B/A

Well lads humour me i guess, and yes i am a dreamer!!

Just got Eircom Phonewatch monitored alarm in €1,200 plus monitoring and phone line monthly (plus/minus €30.00 per month), Infac Safe €450, €265 (existing member renewal, cheapest part really) for Midlands, going for Swedish Karl Gustaf in 6.5x55 (€650) no scope, open sights, and i won't take no for an answer !

Kramer

CG wrote:

Anything that goes Bang in Ireland is expensive to shoot...

Sparks wrote:

My air pistol and air rifle cost me around about 1.5 cents for every bang.

He said "bang" Sparks, not "whooooosh" .

Cheap factory CF ammo @ 50c tends to be cr@p. Anything decent for hunting or target will cost well over twice that.......€1.30+ per round here .

Given the difficulties with licencing, (possible) extra security required, running costs (rotary mag ) & questionable accuracy (€ for € as Spark's said), I'd pump the extra €uros into a good B/A.

Clare gunner

Sparks wrote:

No, they're not. Never will be, euro for euro. Engineering tricks like the H&K PSP1 notwithstanding, if you have €1000 to spend on a rifle and want accuracy, get a single-shot, not a semi-auto.

Beg to differ on that point.There are plenty of AR mods out there that will hold their own with the bolt actions.Actually it comes down to the shooter not the rifle.

As to asking snipers, why would you? They deal with minute of human, not minute of arc. Go ask target shooters if you want to know how accurate a rifle is.

Sorry Sparks,VERY Wrong!!! Military snipers are obsessed MOA,and sub MOAs.
I belive that any sniper properly trained will outgun or hold their own with the best target shooters,hunters,scouts and mathemathicans when it comes to discussing geomatary of the triangle,bullet weight,flight time wind deflection etc.How else would they pull off long distance shots that would leave civillian shooters in awe.Could you hit a head sized target at one mile?Even with the best glass and a 50 cal rifle.I just managed to hit a 55gal barrel at 1000meters with a barret 50 cal. A USMC sniper did the one mile shot and hit a Iraqui sniper with a 308.with a 30 second window of oppoturnity on the target.[yes he was using a bolt action].So thanks ,but I would rather listen to somone whose life depends on their training and equipment for how accurate and practical things are in the really real world.

Sparks

Could you hit a head sized target at one mile?

Don't ask me, ask a Palma shooter. 20inch 10-ring, 1 mile range, iron sights, stock .308 ammo issued at random by the competition organisers (ie. no handloading allowed). With winning scores being 44 out of 45 shots in the 10 ring, I'd lay money on the target shooter. Frankly, I've yet to meet a military shooter whose shooting left me in awe, and I'm not even that good a civilian shooter. We've certainly taken a few military shooters and trained them to shoot properly, but that's not the same thing.

That's not the full story though. Put it this way CG - if I hit the center of the target, I get full points. A military sniper hits almost any part of the target with the kind of rounds they use, he disables the target and that's "full points" (the idiom doesn't exactly hold up in the context). Different kind of thing altogether, and you'd be a fool to think that being good at one made you good at the other, or that they even compared meaningfully. I might be able to outshoot a lot of the military lads - doesn't mean I'd be a good military lad myself, I'd be bloody useless because I don't shoot at even humanoid targets. (That and I doubt I could hump a pack over a mile, let alone several).

So if you want to know how accurate a rifle is, ask the people pushing the accuracy out to the limit - target shooters.

Vegeta

isn't the longest range in palma shooting 1000 yards

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Don't ask me, ask a Palma shooter. 20inch 10-ring, 1 mile range, iron sights, stock .308 ammo issued at random by the competition organisers (ie. no handloading allowed). With winning scores being 44 out of 45 shots in the 10 ring, I'd lay money on the target shooter. Frankly, I've yet to meet a military shooter whose shooting left me in awe, and I'm not even that good a civilian shooter. We've certainly taken a few military shooters and trained them to shoot properly, but that's not the same thing.

That's not the full story though. Put it this way CG - if I hit the center of the target, I get full points. A military sniper hits almost any part of the target with the kind of rounds they use, he disables the target and that's "full points" (the idiom doesn't exactly hold up in the context). Different kind of thing altogether, and you'd be a fool to think that being good at one made you good at the other, or that they even compared meaningfully. I might be able to outshoot a lot of the military lads - doesn't mean I'd be a good military lad myself, I'd be bloody useless because I don't shoot at even humanoid targets. (That and I doubt I could hump a pack over a mile, let alone several).

So if you want to know how accurate a rifle is, ask the people pushing the accuracy out to the limit - target shooters.

I have to say as I've never seen anyone shooting at a thousand yards (be it sniper or target shooter) I cant really make a call but something tells me that if it was your chosen profession to shoot at long range rather than your hobby you'd be good at it.

oldzed

Palma is shot out to 1000 I believe , however TR is shot out to 1200, The only 1 mile matches I have seen or know of are the .50cal matches shot at the whittington centre in raton new mexico. hitting something with a 308 at a mile is luck and nothing more, sure it will travel that far and hits have been recorded that far out but its not a 1 mile cartridge . Carlos Hathcock one of the marines top snipers and also a winner of the wimbledon cup 1000 yard matches , never rated the 308 highly and much preferred his earlier winchester 30-06 bolt gun to the remy 700 in 308 that replaced it for distance work , he reckoned the 308 was good for 800 yards while the 30-06 was good to 1100. however his use of a scope on an m2 50 cal browning mg with hits recorded at 2500 yrds is probably his most famous work. I agree with sparks completely on this one , Target rifle shooters will win every time in competition , The best shooters the americans have are in the AMU and while many have served as snipers they rate competition shooting as the most challenging there is .
my 2 cents

bernard93

I would think that a David Calvert or Glen Barnett would easily out shoot any military sniper.

If your a sniper and hitting a target at 1000 yards it isn’t that difficult. Your using a min 10x scope from an supported position (backpack, bipod, and sandbag) using match ammo with a heavier weight bullet than any TR shooter will use. (Yanks using a min 175grain bthp round, TR shooters using 155 bullet). Yes he is doping wind, elevation and any other atmospheric condition, but a Target rifle shooter (NOT F class) is shooting of his elbows, with a sling to support the rifle and he is using iron sights not a scope and still dealing with everything else....

A sniper doesn’t stand a chance. If you put today’s sniper behind a target rifle he wouldn’t do all that great. Remember it’s been a long time since any army or marine has won any TR comp in the U.K or the U.S... Put a target rifleman behind a sniper rifle. No problems.:D

I actually shot next to 4 British army snipers using AI sniper rifles last year and to be honest the rifles are great rifles but those boys weren’t great at all…:D

maglite

remember a sniper is not a long range killer

he is thought to get close

if memory serves in USMC they take there final assesment shots at about 300yrds

newby.204

Even though im goin off topic on my own thread, cant help it

Canadian snipers in Afghanistan after September 11th made the longest recorded kills in history with this weapon*. On a March afternoon in 2002, Cpl. Furlong of the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry (PPCLI) squinted through the scope of his McMillan TAC-50 and successfully killed an enemy combatant from 2,430 m.

*see attached

Remmy

I'd have to say if it was a test between who was a better marksman it would have to go to the target shooter.Sure snipers can give reliable kill shots in adverse weather and their capable of excellent field craft and range estimation skills the target shooter has to concentrate on alot less so he would be naturally better trained at extreme accuracy.

Take a modern sniper rifle used with the military e.g an accuracy international or trg 22.These are much better than the standard infantry weapon but they still have a factory barrel.Their still produced in a group.compare this to an aftermarket target barrel for a centerfire like a krieger or a border barrel.these a hand turned on a lathe.Also take the ammunition.snipers use .308 match ammunition which is fine but most if not all competitive target shooters use reloaded ammunition which the brass is already fire formed to the chamber and they can engineer a load and bullet weight combination that preformes the best in their gun.

Im not saying that snipers arent excellent marksmen!most are.some are amazing{Gunny hathcock;) } but they are operating under totally different requirements and cant really be compared to one another.

I would still pay to see an accuracy international outshoot a dedicated BR gun !:D

Remmy

bernard93

Remmy,

The vast majority or TR shooters used issued Military ball ammo, AND they still shoot great scores. Compared to a sniper who uses military match ammo which is made specifically for there rifles.

Clare gunner

maglite wrote:

remember a sniper is not a long range killer

he is thought to get close

if memory serves in USMC they take there final assesment shots at about 300yrds

Errr ...No! USMC snipers are taught to take the shot at what they belive is the required distance,to be 100% accurate and give themselves a better than odds chance of exfiltrating themselves from the situation and surviving.In other words to use their own self initative.

Bernard,
as well as stablised shooting positions there are plenty of other positions required on the USMC sniper course.It is true that the UK armed forces are not great shakes,blame that on Mr Blair& Co,not on the men or equipment.
But then explain to me why the Corps usually wipes the board at Camp Perry,OH every year with target M1a,HB AR15s and the Remmy 700 Milspec?
All these guys are either designated marksmen or snipers of the USMC team.And they go up against civvies with the same style rifles,who would have alotmore time to practise and shoot than a std army sniper as well?

Sparks

why the Corps usually wipes the board at Camp Perry

I think David Tubb might take exception to that thought.

bernard93

Clare Gunner,

I think Maglite was referring to standard marksmanship training in the Marine Corp, they don’t use standard bulls eye targets any more, much like the British Army they are use falling plates and ETR out to around 300 to 400 yards.

True there are different positions that a sniper has to learn to shoot at, but there not going to use them in a combat situation, because every sniper will use a prone position for a shot. There not going to shoot offhand at a target 500 yards away....

The guys you see at Camp Perry are part of the Marine Corp Rifle Team or the Army Marksmanship Unit. Now these boys are permanently attached to the rifle team or marksmanship unit. They do not see action. they train 6 days a week in whatever discipline they are shooting in (high-power service rifle usually, match rifle, 300m Issf, 50m small-bore or pistol) So they shoot a hell of a lot more than any civie out there.... They do well at Perry in any service rifle comp because of it.

Check your record books. Its being a long time since any marine or army shooter won the national match rifle comp or the Wimbledon or the leech trophy.

I don’t know what comps the military shoot in Perry with a Remmie 700?

I think Mr. Tubb would be really p***ed of alright, 11 or 12 times I think he’s won it.... Some shooter:)

bernard93

Clare Gunner,

I think Maglite was referring to standard marksmanship training in the Marine Corp, they don’t use standard bulls eye targets any more, much like the British Army they are use falling plates and ETR out to around 300 to 400 yards.

True there are different positions that a sniper has to learn to shoot at, but there not going to use them in a combat situation, because every sniper will use a prone position for a shot. There not going to shoot offhand at a target 500 yards away....

The guys you see at Camp Perry are part of the Marine Corp Rifle Team or the Army Marksmanship Unit. Now these boys are permanently attached to the rifle team or marksmanship unit. They do not see action. they train 6 days a week in whatever discipline they are shooting in (high-power service rifle usually, match rifle, 300m Issf, 50m small-bore or pistol) So they shoot a hell of a lot more than any civie out there.... They do well at Perry in any service rifle comp because of it.

Check your record books. Its being a long time since any marine or army shooter won the national match rifle comp or the Wimbledon or the leech trophy.

I don’t know what comps the military shoot in Perry with a Remmie 700?

I think Mr. Tubb would be really p***ed of alright, 11 or 12 times I think he’s won it.... Some shooter:)

Sputnik

Bear in mind there's a hell of a lot more to being a sniper then just the shooting. You might be able to hit a pimple on a fleas ass with your weapon of choice at a 1000 meters but if that's all you can bring to a snipers course you will fail.

The likes of fieldcraft and camouflage & concealment are heavily emphasised.

dimebag249

Could I back-track here a second guys, Clare Gunner posted that a body needs a semi automatic for practical rifle, would you be allowed to use a pump? Looking at those 7615 .223 Remmy pumps, can take an ar15 magazine (maybe even a beta-C... ), fast enough follow up shots. Wouldn't it get the job done, and would one be allowed to use it in a practical match? Also does anybody know are such weapons accurate? My point is they're cheap any easier to licence. Thanks.

Clare gunner

Question is Dimebag,how long will a Remmy pump hold together?
It is a hunting rifle,and not really designed for huge amount of ammo shovelling,that is common in PR.Never heard of one in 223???
There are freaks out there based on the AR system,even is a clever lever action made in the UK,by using the pistol grip as a lever.All well and good,but try using one in a prone position or running.Yes practical shotgun uses pumps as well,but the operative word is shotgun.More pellets rather than one single bullet going down range.Would it be allowed to use?Dont see why not,if you want to suffer a disadvantage in time from recovering from shots. Cant see it being any easier to liscense than a semi as it will have idonlikedelokodat features as well.You would be better off getting a lever action cowboy style rifle with a quick detach box mag[does exist,was made in the UK for practical rifle awhile ago].
Getting back to the Sniper useage of semis vs bolt actions.It might be truer to say that the AR 15 style rifles are used by the "designated unit marksman",a new thing.This is usually the unit,squad best shot who has been issued a AR15/10 with all the bits added onto it.
Rather than a true sniper,who is a semi self autonomous two man fighting unit.They are bolt action men.BUT the spotter is still armed with either a target model M1a or tricked outCAR/M4 style weapon.Lets not forget Warsaw Pact issued all their snipers with semis ,the dragunov 7.62.Ok different tactical doctrine of sniper useage,but still no slouches out to 800/1000 meters with this inaccurate[by West stds] semi rifle.
Sputnick
Agreed 100%.But we were on about wether a sniper could hold their own against a civvie target shooter,and wether sniping equipment was better than civvie equipment[not at all].As such newby 204 wanted to know what was a better rifle for shooting a BA or semi depends on what type of shooting you want to do.If it is practical rifle a semi if it is target shooting/hunting boltaction.All I am saying is if you want a good semi look at what the US army is doing and adding onto with theirs for sniping useage.
They are using that stuff in a life or death situation.So junk isnt going to make it.

Clare gunner

True there are different positions that a sniper has to learn to shoot at, but there not going to use them in a combat situation, because every sniper will use a prone position for a shot. There not going to shoot offhand at a target 500 yards away....

BUT you are still taught to do it in case that time comes that you must do that shot.And you will qualify with it as well.True prone supported is best,but you might not have that opportunity every time.

The guys you see at Camp Perry are part of the Marine Corp Rifle Team or the Army Marksmanship Unit. Now these boys are permanently attached to the rifle team or marksmanship unit. They do not see action. they train 6 days a week in whatever discipline they are shooting in (high-power service rifle usually, match rifle, 300m Issf, 50m small-bore or pistol) So they shoot a hell of a lot more than any civie out there.... They do well at Perry in any service rifle comp because of it.

The saying in the Corps is you are a rifleman first,everything else second.
[although the Corps training in basic marksmanship was sadly lacking for a good long while].These guys will have done basic,and will have had some combat stint,as they are either long term or lifers,not your std 5 year cannon fodder.Same as the USAF Blue Angels or T birds.You wont be invited unles you have x amount of hours or flown x amount of combat missions.
So they will have seen combat,or that somone there is a REMF[Rear Echelon Mutha FKer] who has managed to pull easy duty.ASFIK ,selection is based on the best shots per unit,battalion,and then inter corps.[Have to dig out my copy of White feather.]

I don’t know what comps the military shoot in Perry with a Remmie 700

?

Sorry..my mistake.:o
Thinking of another competition.run by a crowd in Texas called Rifles only.Hosting a all comers sniper rifle competition.If anyone is intrested maybe we could try an irish team for it?
www.riflesonly.com

Sputnik

Agreed 100%.But we were on about wether a sniper could hold their own against a civvie target shooter,and wether sniping equipment was better than civvie equipment[not at all].

Oh i know, what i ment was that shooting isn't all a sniper does, whereas a civvie shooter practices nothing else, hence I wouldn't be surprised if target shooters are better at the high end.

Remmy

bernard93 wrote:

Remmy,

The vast majority or TR shooters used issued Military ball ammo, AND they still shoot great scores. Compared to a sniper who uses military match ammo which is made specifically for there rifles.

Bernard
I dont know if you are talking about the past or present but modern target rifle shooters who shoot competitively certainly dont use issued military ball ammo. Whatever made you think that?

Even if someone threw 2k into a BR machine how are they supposed to hit the v bull at 600 with military surplus ammo.It would be a major weak link since most other's would be using reloads. Why do you think anyone who is interested in consistent accuracy spends so much time refining ammunition variations?

Remmy

bernard93

Remmy,

The imperial and queen’s prize in bisley (going on at the moment) and the vast majority of Commonwealth TR shoots take place with Rg or equivalent military ammo... the Palma comp takes place with military ammo from that county.

The reason behind it is that no competitor has an edge over somebody else.

Even if you shoot the Irish open in Ballykindler you will be issued Rg brown box ammo which is what they use in Gpmg's and such.

jaycee

bernard93 wrote:

Remmy,

Even if you shoot the Irish open in Ballykindler

Always sounds funny to me that the "Irish Open" isn't shot at a range in the Republic of Ireland.
You'd imagine that would be it's natural home. :rolleyes:

BTW...I thought I'd heard that BallyK was going to be closed down..
Something to do with local zoning issues ..?

Gerri

jaycee wrote:

Always sounds funny to me that the "Irish Open" isn't shot at a range in the Republic of Ireland.
You'd imagine that would be it's natural home. :rolleyes:

BTW...I thought I'd heard that BallyK was going to be closed down..
Something to do with local zoning issues ..?

Why funny? Why would the Republic of Ireland be it's natural home? It's the Irish Open not the Republic of Ireland Open!!!

Sparks

It's funny because it's a British Army base Gerri. The country it's in isn't really the point, though it does show up licencing laws in both the ROI and NI in that the competitors going to an all-Ireland Open can't just go there, as some will have a licence that's recognised and sufficient, and others need to arrange further paperwork. You'd imagine that there'd be a special arrangement made (and we've actually asked for that from the DoJ, but I'm not holding my breath).

(And shouldn't the location for the Irish Open be in the ROI at least every other year until that gets sorted out?)

Manic Moran

they are operating under totally different requirements and cant really be compared to one another.

Best answer so far. Take a competition shooter and a sniper on a known-distance range with all the appropriate conditions such as (generally) a dry, flat place to shoot from, stationary target, and often a flag to show you windspeed and direction, the competition shooter will likely win.

Put the two on the side of a sloped hill, probably in the rain with lots of undergrowth, point to a random moving target 'out thataway' and tell them to hit on the first try (No adjusting for fall of shot!), my money's on the military (or police) sniper.

if memory serves in USMC they take there final assesment shots at about 300yrds

If not closer. The trick with the final assessment isn't hitting the target, it's getting to within 300 yards to take the shot in the first place!

NTM