omaha hand.... back in the day

dougee19

okay, i am actually unsure as to the exact cards i have, but this is more or less what happened
went into the casino that night with €200, was only going to lose that because my roll was tiny, around 1k, hadnt been introduced to online poker yet so this was my only game available.
started off with €1/€2 texas, bought in for 50 and lost, re-bought for €100 and was on 650 when the table decided to go to a round of each, after about 2 hours had my stack built to 1600, by this stage it was all omaha, still 1/2 though. This hand has been in my head a lot lately, dont know why since it happened months back.
Let me know what you would do here


FORGET BANKROLL IN YOUR COMMENT, JUST GO BY THE HAND!!!


These are roughly the stacks, giving them names cause dont like player 2 etc.
Hopefully isnt too confusing

Seat 1: Me €1600
Seat 2: Tom 550
Seat 3: Andy 800
Seat 4: Ger 2100
Seat 5: Ken 150
Seat 6(button): Roger 1100
Seat 7: Louise 65
Seat 8: Paul 140
Seat 9: Gillian 700

my hand is 8s-8c-Jd-4d
9 handed table, im middle position
Gillian limps before me, i call 2, Tom and Andy call behind me and then Roger(button) raises to 15, Gillian calls and then i call followed by Andy.
5 to the flop

Flop come 8d-10s-5c
im going to be coming out strong, would have gone for check raise but couldnt see button betting when its checked around so just going to come straight out and bet it
check, i bet pot of 65, call, call, fold


Turn comes 7d
giving me a jack high flush draw along with middle set....
still a worrying card though as straight is filler, i check, check, Roger bets pot of 260, i call, Andy then re-raises all in, Roger then re-raises all in...



what is the correct play in your opinion?
the two of them have been tight, only get their hands in with monsters, took ages on this decision, eventually got clock called on me for the first time ever.
Comments would be greatly appreciated

valor

given a roll of 1k cash out way before you are playing this deep

max_power

Let's make this one simple, fold preflop, your hand is a bag of ass tbh. Since you have called, fold now. Your behind.

Marq

fold preflop. fold the turn. you should have gone for the check-raise on the flop.

CaptainNemo

Easy fold. You are definitely against at least 1 straight and you're not even guaranteed to win if the board pairs.

Also a good point by Valor. At the point this hand happens you've got 2/3 of your entire bankroll on the table - you're playing Omaha, and by the sound of it quite a wild game - and there are other big stacks at the table, 1 of whom has you covered.

Cash out and count your blessings, I hope you didn't call all-in on this one.

dougee19

valor wrote:

given a roll of 1k cash out way before you are playing this deep

forgot to mention, since ye dont know me and all. dont care whats happens with money really, just dont like making stupid mistakes in big pots.
whether i win or lose this money that didnt bother me, had a lot of money saved away already from poker so this was just to play with.
i just find this a tough spot and would like constructive criticism

CaptainNemo

dougee19 wrote:

i just find this a tough spot and would like constructive criticism

I'm curious as to what you find tough about this. What are you expecting to be up against here?

FWIW I would expect the other two players to both turn over straights, oen of them with the nut flush draw to go with it.

dougee19

if im against 2 straights and no redraws then i have and diamond or board pairing to take down the pot, my memory is bad and the hand is a bit off but that was more or less it, might have had second set instead of 3rd but nothing major

possible 9 diamonds and 10 cards to pair the board and not getting that bad odds

BigCityBanker

dougee19 wrote:

if

very important part of your sentence

dougee19

BigCityBanker wrote:

very important part of your sentence

i know... i eventually folded the hand
only reason was because i was afraid higher flush draw was out there and my diamonds were dead.
turned out they were live and i would have hit the river, wasnt too upset with it, thought it was a decent fold
then turned over my cards to other players, every single one of them said they'd have called. was thinking that was because of the fact they had a smaller stack but just always had it in my mind that i maybe should have called

CaptainNemo

dougee19 wrote:

i know... i eventually folded the hand
only reason was because i was afraid higher flush draw was out there and my diamonds were dead.
turned out they were live and i would have hit the river, wasnt too upset with it, thought it was a decent fold
then turned over my cards to other players, every single one of them said they'd have called. was thinking that was because of the fact they had a smaller stack but just always had it in my mind that i maybe should have called

I think it was a good fold. Hindsight is a terrible thing in poker! Must have been hard knowing you could have taken down a 3k pot but I'd make that fold every time. You're have no draws to the nuts except for the last 8 in the deck.

sitout

valor wrote:

given a roll of 1k cash out way before you are playing this deep

could not agree more

kryogen

its a stupid hand, fold pre flop, your hand is trash..absolute dirt, how often are you gonna make the nuts here?? i really dont see wat ur decision is, fold, you getting no odds on a call to draw, you have a J high flush draw! even if you make that crappy draw it may be dead, and you have middle set and are prepared to call hoping the board will pair? i really hope you folded as this is a shocking call if made. and i find it hard to believe you actually make money at poker.

CaptainNemo

kryogen wrote:

its a stupid hand, fold pre flop, your hand is trash..absolute dirt, how often are you gonna make the nuts here?? i really dont see wat ur decision is, fold, you getting no odds on a call to draw, you have a J high flush draw! even if you make that crappy draw it may be dead, and you have middle set and are prepared to call hoping the board will pair? i really hope you folded as this is a shocking call if made. and i find it hard to believe you actually make money at poker.

Somewhat harsh. Your analysis of the hand is right but what's the point of acting like a d**k towards someone who's posted this thread because they're trying to learn about the game?

Also if you'd read the full thread you'd see that he did fold - correctly - but has been bothered by the hand since then because he would have taken it down and was berated by all the other players for not calling.

Captain Tom

kryogen that does seem unneccessarily harsh. a lot of dougee's threads on boards are probably just to get a reaction and mess with peoples heads a bit but he does seem genuinely interested in the correct line in this hand.

and douglas, you obviously should have called. you run sick good in macau.

kryogen

i do not wish to offend, i am just blunt!! i prefer direct honesty. i did not insult dougie personally anywhere in my post did i?? i critiqued the hand i thought. the only part that may be interpreted as persnonal is the last sentence, and that is meant in a general tone also, if a player is calling there they cannot be a winning player. lol cant believe i explained myself!

dougee19

correction in stacks, wrote number in wrong place, button also had 800 ish, all i can remember is that it was something like 460 to call into a pot of roughly 2000, maybe more

and i still think it wouldnt have been too bad of a call, not sure what the right move was though


also correction to captain's post

Captain Tom wrote:

kryogen that does seem unneccessarily harsh. a lot of dougee's threads on boards are probably just to get a reaction and mess with peoples heads a bit but he does seem genuinely interested in the correct line in this hand.

and douglas, you obviously should have called. you ran sick good in macau.

:D:D:D:D:D:D

CaptainNemo

dougee19 wrote:

and i still think it wouldnt have been too bad of a call, not sure what the right move was though

I really think it would have been a very bad call. The fact that your jack high flush would have taken down this monster pot indicates to me that maybe the people you were playing with were not very good, and maybe that comes into your calculations here.

The reason I think they weren't very good is that you clearly had 2 people in there drawing to the straight on the flop when there was a flush draw out there; and the fact that a J high flush would have won it indicates that no one had the nut flush redraw or anything close to it. For this to be the case when people are playing for stacks of 20 times the minimum buy-in is suicidal.

I would seriously consider folding the nuts on the turn there without a flush redraw if I had to put an entire €1000+ stack on the line. It would depend on the player(s) who were in before me. If they're fishy I wouldn't be so worried, but if a good player had stuck his entire stack in I'd expect to see the nuts with a high flush draw.

If you knew for sure that your diamonds AND your boat draw were live then yes, you are getting good odds for the call. I haven't worked out the figures but I presume that your 17 outs make it a +EV call given how much has gone into the pot. However, EVEN THEN there is a good case for folding based on what you said about your bankroll. It would be a conservative but not at all a bad move, in keeping with the comments about how you should cash out when you're sitting at a table with such a large % of your BR.

RoundTower

I think this is pretty close actually, I don't know why everyone says insta fold. They probably both have the straight made, there is no reason to believe there is a bigger flush draw out as you have the J and there was no fd on the flop, also a bigger set is highly unlikely. I doubt either player is tight enough to need a redraw to push here. It is 840 to call and there will be 3k+ in the pots which is a nice price.

Also it's nice to say play within your roll and so on, but if you spin up €150 to €3000 even one time then you will have a much bigger roll and be able to play bigger games and win money faster -- if you are going to have such a big amount of your roll on the table you have to be prepared to gamble with it.

Oh also you have two gutshots, there's a good chance a nine is good to split.

I could fold preflop but I've played much worse hands before.

dougee19

RoundTower wrote:

I think this is pretty close actually, I don't know why everyone says insta fold. They probably both have the straight made, there is no reason to believe there is a bigger flush draw out as you have the J and there was no fd on the flop, also a bigger set is highly unlikely. I doubt either player is tight enough to need a redraw to push here. It is 840 to call and there will be 3k+ in the pots which is a nice price.

Also it's nice to say play within your roll and so on, but if you spin up €150 to €3000 even one time then you will have a much bigger roll and be able to play bigger games and win money faster -- if you are going to have such a big amount of your roll on the table you have to be prepared to gamble with it.

Oh also you have two gutshots, there's a good chance a nine is good to split.

I could fold preflop but I've played much worse hands before.

thanks for the comment roundtower, first bit of constructive criticism ive gotten from this site.
i was actually shocked so many said fold so fast on here and was wondering why i was thinking a call wasnt such a bad idea, i am totally up for gambling in situations where i think my odds are big and its the right call, bankroll management aside for this hand i find it a tough hand and noone aside from you has noticed it which makes me question the omaha skills on this site

kryogen

dougee19 wrote:

thanks for the comment roundtower, first bit of constructive criticism ive gotten from this site.i was actually shocked so many said fold so fast on here and was wondering why i was thinking a call wasnt such a bad idea, i am totally up for gambling in situations where i think my odds are big and its the right call, bankroll management aside for this hand i find it a tough hand and noone aside from you has noticed it which makes me question the omaha skills on this site

really?? are you sure? do you actually want any constructive critiscim or do you just want people to make you feel better about decisions you make? which im sure is what roundtowers post made you feel. you got plenty of constructive critiscism and you will get plenty more im sure

dougee19

dude, dont post under my threads from now on please...

the fact is that i folded the hand, and im wondering if it was the corect move or not, get ur facts straight before u post cause ur always writing s*** like this under my threads. now please leave it at that and let people comment on the hand

kryogen

my facts are fine,you folded,great,i read that. but you seem to like to ignore someones opinion unless it validates you feelings. hey if you post here i may reply,dont read it if you dont wanna.

yada yada
B

............

RedJoker

If you didn't want comments on your bankroll management then you probably shouldn't have included it in the first paragraph, that was kinda asking for it.

How are you getting on anyway?

Hectorjelly

I would definitely call. Very unlikely either has top set and coupled with the flush draw I would call pretty quickly.

dougee19

RedJoker wrote:

If you didn't want comments on your bankroll management then you probably shouldn't have included it in the first paragraph, that was kinda asking for it.

How are you getting on anyway?

i know and i regretted it after just like writing the full stories, stressed the whole forget the bankroll thing but some people cant get over that and try and take it to a personal level..
just like the last time i posted, lol

and havent been doing too bad, didnt play in a month and trying to get back on terms with things, thinking back on old hands and where i went wrong,
went broke on full tilt almost, was down to 1200 and now back up to 16k
also managed to get my freeroll challenge most of the way done,
one site got to 1200 from 0 and another 280, so just one more site to go and get to 500, and then have to get the money on full tilt up, need to improve a little to go up stakes, not playing as good as i used to and need to think more and all that.
what u think of the hand??

dougee19

Hectorjelly wrote:

I would definitely call. Very unlikely either has top set and coupled with the flush draw I would call pretty quickly.

thanks for the comment, to be honest regretted straight after i folded and think the lack of sleep influenced me.
good to see im not the only one who would call here

RedJoker

dougee19 wrote:

and havent been doing too bad, didnt play in a month and trying to get back on terms with things, thinking back on old hands and where i went wrong,
went broke on full tilt almost, was down to 1200 and now back up to 16k
also managed to get my freeroll challenge most of the way done,
one site got to 1200 from 0 and another 280, so just one more site to go and get to 500, and then have to get the money on full tilt up, need to improve a little to go up stakes, not playing as good as i used to and need to think more and all that.
what u think of the hand??

My omaha is fairly rusty, it's been a while since I played so I won't try to comment on the hand.

Good stuff, slumming it up at small stakes eh? Probably couldn't hurt. You move house yet?

dougee19

yeah just trying to get a proper state of mind before i attack higher stakes, getting sick outdraws on pp right now though so head is all over the place, check the bad beat thing tomorrow for the worst one, whenver i get a link to change it to graphic stuff, i'll pm u there, dont want thread locked over non poker talk etc

RedJoker

ok, i'm redjoker1986@hotmail.com on MSN.