Is this common?

pid()

Hi guys/gals,
I recently graduated with a BSc Honours degree in Software Development with Applied Mathematics with a 2.1 grade, so recently I have been applying for software related roles. The most recent one I am applying for is a graduate position, and it's just some c# gig that doesn't require any commercial experience but does require a degree.

What I find extremely strange is this: I was asked what I got in Maths for my leaving cert. I told them I got an A in ordinary level maths, and they refused my application for the job based on this, even though I studied applied maths in college - and they knew this. I got a B+ in applied maths, and an A in the regular maths module that I took. They wanted higher level maths for the leaving cert.

I was certain that my leaving cert did not matter anymore, now that I have a degree. Should I expect this sort of thing in the future?

I ask this in the Programming forum, and not postgrads for instance because I hope a lot of people who view this forum are either in college or have degrees so hopefully it will prove beneficial. I'll understand if the moderator wishes to move this elsewhere.

Thanks,
Dave.

Evil Phil

It does seem quite strange to me and I wouldn't consider it the norm.

eve

I wasn't asked about my Leaving Cert Maths when I went for interviews after college. But my marks were on my CV so I guess its possible that they had already screened me using it? Still seems a strange thing when you did it in college and got good marks

pid()

Evil Phil wrote:

It does seem quite strange to me and I wouldn't consider it the norm.

Thanks Phil. I hadn't encountered it before so I was hoping it was just the company being a bit anal. They can do without me I guess.

information

A lot of software people who graduated in the 90s think that modern
computer degrees are crap and don't teach graduates the thinking
about how to master programming languages and techniques.

These people are now the managers of software companies and their
thinking is if you have good maths they will be able to pick up computing
concepts better.

I have seen it a lot is the hiring of graduates, graduates might not
even be aware that it could be the reason why they did or didn't
get a job.

markf909

information wrote:

A lot of software people who graduated in the 90s think that modern computer degrees are crap and don't teach graduates the thinking
about how to master programming languages and techniques.

I would tend to agree with this assertion, however I wouldn't place so much faith in the ability of LC honours maths to dictate how good a programmer one is.

pid()

information wrote:

A lot of software people who graduated in the 90s think that modern
computer degrees are crap and don't teach graduates the thinking
about how to master programming languages and techniques.

These people are now the managers of software companies and their
thinking is if you have good maths they will be able to pick up computing
concepts better.

I have seen it a lot is the hiring of graduates, graduates might not
even be aware that it could be the reason why they did or didn't
get a job.

I see where you're coming from, but in fairness Applied Maths in college is a lot more difficult and indepth than Honours Maths for the Leaving Cert, or so I would have thought. I guess I should let it go now, but it did dishearten me a small bit.

Evil Phil

What kind of position was it pid()? Without telling us who with please

pid()

It was a graduate c# developer position. The ideal candidate would be writing c# code for e-commerce websites (using web services and the like), with MSSQL as the back end database. I won't go into any more detail as it's advertised on a lot of recruitment sites and as it would be easy to figure out who it is, I don't want to blacken their name either!

professore

pid() wrote:

Hi guys/gals,
I recently graduated with a BSc Honours degree in Software Development with Applied Mathematics with a 2.1 grade, so recently I have been applying for software related roles. The most recent one I am applying for is a graduate position, and it's just some c# gig that doesn't require any commercial experience but does require a degree.

What I find extremely strange is this: I was asked what I got in Maths for my leaving cert. I told them I got an A in ordinary level maths, and they refused my application for the job based on this, even though I studied applied maths in college - and they knew this. I got a B+ in applied maths, and an A in the regular maths module that I took. They wanted higher level maths for the leaving cert.

I was certain that my leaving cert did not matter anymore, now that I have a degree. Should I expect this sort of thing in the future?

I ask this in the Programming forum, and not postgrads for instance because I hope a lot of people who view this forum are either in college or have degrees so hopefully it will prove beneficial. I'll understand if the moderator wishes to move this elsewhere.

Thanks,
Dave.

That company sound like idiots. LC maths often depends on the teacher being unwilling to teach all but the best students - or their perception of the best students - it happened to me as well, and after went on to get a 2.1 in Maths and Physics. Just shows you.

damnyanks

You see HR were involved in the recruitment process. Thats where everything automatically falls apart

leeroybrown

I reckon we'll start seeing this kind of comment/rejection more often now. The percentage of people sitting HL Maths appears to have dropped off quite a bit so perhaps some companies are becoming more conscious of it.

Some companies are quite touchy about employing people who don't meet their perceived educational standards as they like to think they have a high quality workforce. The kind of 'all our staff have a 1:1 degree or postgradute qualification' bull. Contrary to this, based on what I have seen in the graduate employment market the possession of a degree often doesn't tell you very much about qualtiy of the candidate the candidate.

Cake Fiend

pid() wrote:

I don't want to blacken their name either!

Why not? They sound like morons. I'd imagine quite a few of the people on this board would rather not work for a company blinkered enough to hire based on LC results.

Ginger

Strange.. tho i got rejected from a couple of jobs based on my degree and the fact that it was a pass. Even tho I had a lot more commercial experience then my counterparts at the time. I had been contracting during my college time to pay for it and also keep my skills current.

Funny thing was a couple of years later, I got headhunted by one of the companies that rejected my grad application. Took great pleasure in saying no. They asked why and I said well, you know I only have a pass degree

Anyways back to your issue Seems strange to reject you on that. Its likes saying did you do computers for the leaving, no??? Oh well sorry we cant give you that job. But I have a degree in computing!!! Strange company.. bt then again you can never trust HR hiring for tech jobs

Evil Phil

Cake Fiend wrote:

Why not? They sound like morons. I'd imagine quite a few of the people on this board would rather not work for a company blinkered enough to hire based on LC results.

I would prefer if they weren't named as it may have legal connotations.

Hobbes

It is possible that someone did something stupid and asked someone else what their LC was and told them they couldn't have the job based on that. To avoid getting the asses sued they have to ask and reject all similar candidates.

For example if someone asked "Are you single?" they would have to ask everyone.

Sounds more like they didn't want to hire you and were just looking for some excuse. Most likely they have someone picked already.

You should of asked them though. I mean after 5 years your LC is meaningless to your CV unless you have never worked during that time. IMHO it would be meaningless to any college degree you might have.

CreepingDeath

pid() wrote:

I told them I got an A in ordinary level maths

Well, at least you know to lie about your leaving cert in future, if some interviewer is dumb enough to ask.

Was it a technical interview, or a human resources interview ?
I ask, because the morons on HR could have a list of requirements, and follow it religiously. Whereas a technical interviewer would know that a third level qualification supercedes the LC.

It could've been a company that requires strong maths skills, eg. games development, analytics, physics modeling, encryption etc.

Normal programming rarely requires strong maths skills.
In my 13+ years in the industry, I've only ever had one interview that required
good math skills, and they were developing physics engines for games.

pid()

CreepingDeath wrote:

Well, at least you know to lie about your leaving cert in future, if some interviewer is dumb enough to ask.

Was it a technical interview, or a human resources interview ?
I ask, because the morons on HR could have a list of requirements, and follow it religiously. Whereas a technical interviewer would know that a third level qualification supercedes the LC.

It could've been a company that requires strong maths skills, eg. games development, analytics, physics modeling, encryption etc.

Normal programming rarely requires strong maths skills.
In my 13+ years in the industry, I've only ever had one interview that required
good math skills, and they were developing physics engines for games.

Yeah it was a HR interview. I even stated that I have three years games development under my belt, have written my own 3rd person shooter in OpenGL and explained how difficult the Math is for games development (physics etc) but they weren't interested.

Tom Dunne

pid() wrote:

but they weren't interested.

They weren't interested, or is it a case of all they heard was "Blah, blah, blah, blah, Pass Maths, Blah, blah"?

I think it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the job by HR. They had a checklist to adhere to, and they did. Obviously any kind of deviation from the script was a no-no, irrespective of the quality of the candidate.

Their loss, tbh.

Evil Phil

Yeah their loss. You could write to them asking why ordinary level maths prevented you from getting the job when you have a degree in mathematics (ish) and plenty of work experience. The worst they can do is ignore you - it might even educate them a little bit about their interviewing process.

pid()

Cheers lads.

Evil Phil wrote:

Yeah their loss. You could write to them asking why ordinary level maths prevented you from getting the job when you have a degree in mathematics (ish) and plenty of work experience. The worst they can do is ignore you - it might even educate them a little bit about their interviewing process.

Yeah I think I'll do that. I'm not bitter about this, not by any means. I was hoping it wasn't something I should expect when applying for a job and from the replies here it looks like it's a rare enough occurance. I can totally understand people being skeptical of a graduates abilities. I know a few people who graduated with me that shouldn't have been given a degree at all. If I was recruiting I would want someone with their own motivation. I know lots of people with jobs in software development who never sat their leaving and have progressed their careers by experience and determination. They are self motivated. That's the kind of person I would be looking for, so at times having a degree can be a bit annoying too! I guess once you get your foot on the ladder and have that bit of experience the rest of your career is about building up your experience and you go from there.

The Corinthian

I've never had much time for HR departments. They serve three main functions in a company; keeping up moral, hiring and (legal) firing. The first I've never seen them do much, if anything, in any of the numerous companies I've worked in and in the last they can however be useful if you want to avoid lawsuits.

As for hiring, they are frankly as hit and miss as anyone else. The quality of hires through HR is no different those that are hired directly by a prospective line manager. Of course HR departments need to justify their existence, which is why they come up with these various tests and criteria.

You got shafted by one of these criteria, which is, IMHO, more designed to validate the role of HR than actually do anything to do with resource management. I do think it's an unusual thing to be asked, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Drakar

Just move on, there's lots more jobs out there and unless this is one that was really attractive to you, I wouldn't bother writing letters etc. You don't get paid anything for educating HR (good luck with that btw :P). There's lots of companies out there looking for talented graduates, just find one where the job sounds interesting and where they'll value you.

Hobbes

I find in Job interviews HR are not tech minded and shouldn't be treated as such. Nearly always they appear to be checking the personality or any "holes" in your CV. In some cases will intentionally try to provoke a response to see how you handle being put on the spot or insulted.

It is possible you did something that HR flagged as not acceptable.

sailorfoley

Hey pid(),

Is it possible that the company didn't know what applied maths was? I did higher level maths and applied maths for the leaving cert and a few interviews i have gone to, the employer asked me why i did 2 levels of maths. They were getting applied maths confused with foundation maths. I had to explain that applied maths was like mathematical physics.

pid()

Hobbes wrote:

It is possible you did something that HR flagged as not acceptable.

Not that I'm aware of to be honest. I don't have their checklist but the interview went great.

sailorfoley wrote:

Hey pid(),

Is it possible that the company didn't know what applied maths was? I did higher level maths and applied maths for the leaving cert and a few interviews i have gone to, the employer asked me why i did 2 levels of maths. They were getting applied maths confused with foundation maths. I had to explain that applied maths was like mathematical physics.

That could be it, but I don't think so. The more likely story which has been mentioned already is that they just had it as part of their checklist, and when I didn't have it that was it. The more I think about it the more it makes sense, it really did seem like no matter how qualified I was, if I didn't have that one requirement then I was a no go. I mean they even commented on how impressed they were during the interview, and how they liked my drive and enthusiasm... until the leaving cert maths thing.

I've let it go now anyway, and it's not bothering me anymore. I'll keep this experience in the back of my head though.

Does anyone else have any similar stories from interviews / recruitment?

hardCopy

I think in a lot of cases the first round of interviews are just used to screen candidates before sending a group in to be interviewed by the people who actually have the power to hire.

The person who interviewed you probably just didn't have the authority to make exceptions to the "Must have honours maths" rule they were told to follow.

Don't take it to heart, when you do get an interview with someone who understands the value of your experience you'll probably get a much nicer job out of it.

mmccarthy

I've been self employed now for a few years but I do remember what interviews were like. Being interviewed by HR can be a disaster. They do operate only on a checklist. They are given a spec of the job and the companies requirements for that job. They are just there to screen applicants on that checklist.

I agree they probably had no idea what applied maths was. Their checklist said hons. LC maths and they didn't realise that applied maths superceded it.

I think you should send a very polite, very formal letter to the company asking why they would reject an applicant for having Lower level LC maths when the same applicant has applied maths in college.

The only way companies will change their policies on using hr to screen technical hires is if the problems are pointed out to them. Getting one company to change their policy is a step in the right direction.

Malice

mmccarthy wrote:

I've been self employed now for a few years but I do remember what interviews were like. Being interviewed by HR can be a disaster. They do operate only on a checklist. They are given a spec of the job and the companies requirements for that job. They are just there to screen applicants on that checklist.

I agree they probably had no idea what applied maths was. Their checklist said hons. LC maths and they didn't realise that applied maths superceded it.

I think you should send a very polite, very formal letter to the company asking why they would reject an applicant for having Lower level LC maths when the same applicant has applied maths in college.

The only way companies will change their policies on using hr to screen technical hires is if the problems are pointed out to them. Getting one company to change their policy is a step in the right direction.

I would agree with this. In various jobs that I have interviewed for and not been offered or not taken it has usually been down to missing skills, insufficient experience or the company making a a bad impression on me. I have never come across interviewer asking for my Leaving Cert results.

It's definitely just a checklist for the interviewer and you shouldn't take it as a negative reflection on yourself.

MOH

I once had to wait two weeks to start a new job until I could produce a copy of my leaving cert.

Despite having a B.Sc. in Computer Applications, and 7 years experience, the previous 4 doing almost exactly what the new job entailed, and getting through a fairly technical interview.

It was in June and when I phoned my old school to see if they could dig it out, they were initially responsive when I mentioned "leaving cert" - a lot less so when they realised I was talking about one from 12 years before!

Eventually got it off the department of education, but meant I spent two weeks sitting at home instead of working (a world cup year so I didn't really mind!)

Malice

MOH wrote:

I once had to wait two weeks to start a new job until I could produce a copy of my leaving cert.

Despite having a B.Sc. in Computer Applications, and 7 years experience, the previous 4 doing almost exactly what the new job entailed, and getting through a fairly technical interview.

That's daft! Were you paid for the two weeks? Did you ever raise the issue with management or anything? I bet the results were tossed into a filing cabinet and never thought of again

Kattyboy25

pid() wrote:

Hi guys/gals,
I recently graduated with a BSc Honours degree in Software Development with Applied Mathematics with a 2.1 grade, so recently I have been applying for software related roles. The most recent one I am applying for is a graduate position, and it's just some c# gig that doesn't require any commercial experience but does require a degree.

What I find extremely strange is this: I was asked what I got in Maths for my leaving cert. I told them I got an A in ordinary level maths, and they refused my application for the job based on this, even though I studied applied maths in college - and they knew this. I got a B+ in applied maths, and an A in the regular maths module that I took. They wanted higher level maths for the leaving cert.

I was certain that my leaving cert did not matter anymore, now that I have a degree. Should I expect this sort of thing in the future?

I ask this in the Programming forum, and not postgrads for instance because I hope a lot of people who view this forum are either in college or have degrees so hopefully it will prove beneficial. I'll understand if the moderator wishes to move this elsewhere.

Thanks,
Dave.

This is the problem with HR or recruitment people that don't have technical degrees or experience, they still measure mathematical intelligence by a level they last experienced, i.e. their leaving cert. Leaving cert maths is a balls anyway, university maths is more applied and specific to the field your in. In your case your leaving cert results are irrelevant for the position you were applying for.

CelloPoint

Kattyboy25 wrote:

This is the problem with HR or recruitment people that don't have technical degrees or experience, they still measure mathematical intelligence by a level they last experienced, i.e. their leaving cert. Leaving cert maths is a balls anyway, university maths is more applied and specific to the field your in. In your case your leaving cert results are irrelevant for the position you were applying for.

In fairness to HR, why should they take that risk? It costs a heck of a lot more money that 30k salary to recruit, train and facilitate a new employee. Someone with a solid and consistent background with good interpersonal skills is what they're looking for. There are plently of graduates (both Irish and foreign) who will work for less than €30k per annum on the graduate techie gravy train.

MOH

malice_ wrote:

That's daft! Were you paid for the two weeks? Did you ever raise the issue with management or anything? I bet the results were tossed into a filing cabinet and never thought of again

I'm sure they were.

I couldn't really raise the issue - I was free to walk away and take another job if I wanted to.

Heard a rumour after that they'd been stung a few years before by someone claiming to have a load of qualifications which were a sham.

Malice

MOH wrote:

I couldn't really raise the issue - I was free to walk away and take another job if I wanted to.

That's true but I wouldn't like to have two weeks without wages through no fault of my own.

MOH wrote:

Heard a rumour after that they'd been stung a few years before by someone claiming to have a load of qualifications which were a sham.

That explains their thoroughness to a certain extent but still, sham qualifications are a bit different to Leaving Cert results aren't they?

Khannie

Absolutely ridiculous tbh. I didn't even include my LC grades on my CV with my last application (my 2nd job out of college). Leaving cert = basically irrelevant IMO. Nobody gets a 2.1 comp sci degree in any university that I'm aware of without slog / brains. Both of which are worth hiring for.

MOH

malice_ wrote:

That's true but I wouldn't like to have two weeks without wages through no fault of my own.

That explains their thoroughness to a certain extent but still, sham qualifications are a bit different to Leaving Cert results aren't they?

Yeah, but I think they'd lied about their L Cert or something.

Don't see either why it's relevant in the first place, but hey, who understands HR departments?