Some Vegas $5/$10 Hands

BigCityBanker

#1 - 5/10$ in the Bellagio. Ive noted that the table has begun to play quite tight and even somewhat passive. As a consequence I open Js10s to 40 in MP the next 4 call and then the SB raises to $100 (WTF?). Folded to me and I make it $320. Any reason why I shouldnt?

#2 - 5/10 in the Bellagio. I limp 44 from EP and after its folded to the CO he makes it 60 to play. Im the only caller.
Flop KQ4r - I check he bets 120 and I make it 320.
Turn 8x - I bet 300, he calls whilst looking uneasy.
River 10x - I shove for the rest of my stack c. 600. He covers and folds.

#3 - 5/10 in the Bellagio. I pick up KK in LP and after 1 limper I make it 60 to go. Both blinds call (190).
Flop Jd9d6x - He SB leads for 50, I make it 220, he calls.
Turn 8x - He leads for 160 leaving 240 behind. fold or shove?
SB seems to be a bad player - probably the worst one at the table.

all comments appreciated

valor

#1 because you can call and play a 4 way pot with a great hand for that against a probable monster, and because he probably has AA and will shove

#2 w/e

#3 shove

bops

#1 - maybe because your behind!! - TJs is a lovely drawing hand, not a hand to get it all in PF if your deep - just call the 60 imo

#2 - fine

#3 - > 2.5/1 yep but dont be surprised to see a straight or 2 pair

El Stuntman

Hand 1 - I hate this, yes his bet sizing is wierd but imo that's usually indicative of a monster. flat call and play a big multi-way pot with a nice hand to bust somebody.

Hand 2 - I would lead the flop for ~2/3 pot and then CRAI on turn. Surprised you got to the turn here with the line taken

Hand 3 - I am considering getting a tattoo done on the back of hand that says 'don't go broke with overpairs' (maybe inside a skull and crossbones). lol, he's bad and has feck all left behind - awwween. AJ best case here

HeeHawsCantona

I like your play on hand 2.
I dont really like hand 1 - I probably call (would like to fold in ep but for table image I call) - need relative stacks to make any sensible comment on the reraise but basically in EP and with 10Js you can only be looking for a fold unless you hit a miracle flop.
Hand 3 - the fooker could have made a hand but I probably shove regardless - i dont think i call only but it could be an option

HeeHawsCantona

I like your play on hand 2.
I dont really like hand 1 - I probably call (would like to fold in ep but for table image I call) - need relative stacks to make any sensible comment on the reraise but basically in EP and with 10Js you can only be looking for a fold unless you hit a miracle flop.
Hand 3 - the fooker could have made a hand but I probably shove regardless - i dont think i call only but it could be an option

pumpkinpints

BCB wrote:

Any reason why I shouldnt?

BCB wrote:

#the table has begun to play quite tight and even somewhat passive.

.

Mr.Plough

hand 1 - as already stated i would just call and try to hit. 4betting is fine with a different table dynamic but you just stated that the table is tight and passive so i don't like investing so much pf when you know you have to hit big.

hand 2 - i raise this pf. your hand is really transparent.

hand 3 - i stick it in hoping he has a bare jack

BigCityBanker

#1 - do you expect any of the guys behind me who called the 40 have a hand with which they can realistically call the 320? What sort of a hand can the SB call with once ive raised? What sort of a hand do you think he is raising to 100 with? What likely objective do you imagine he has when he makes it 100? If he has AA/KK and I call then each one in turn should call surely! Does he want to play a multiway pot oop with AA or KK? Pumpkinpints I dont see your point? Tight and passive doesnt mean they wont 3 bet QQ/KK/AA/AK in position.

# 2 - In this game raising 44 from EP was not an option. They were 3 and 4 betting for sport at this table. It doesnt matter if your hand is transparent to a good player. Dont forget the large majority of players just play their own hand.

NickyOD

Hand 1: I really like the way you played this hand. I probably make it a nice round 350 though.

Hand 2: I think there's lots of ways to play this hand but if you check raise the flop raise more. If he calls 320 he'll call 380 but then there'll be $120 more in the pot on the flop making it harder for him to fold to your inevatable river push.

Hand 3: I hate the flop raise. Cold call and see what he does on the turn that is unless your sure he only leads out so weak with top pair here and you're not.

MrPillowTalk

BigCityBanker wrote:

#1 - 5/10$ in the Bellagio. Ive noted that the table has begun to play quite tight and even somewhat passive. As a consequence I open Js10s to 40 in MP the next 4 call and then the SB raises to $100 (WTF?). Folded to me and I make it $320. Any reason why I shouldnt?

#2 - 5/10 in the Bellagio. I limp 44 from EP and after its folded to the CO he makes it 60 to play. Im the only caller.
Flop KQ4r - I check he bets 120 and I make it 320.
Turn 8x - I bet 300, he calls whilst looking uneasy.
River 10x - I shove for the rest of my stack c. 600. He covers and folds.

#3 - 5/10 in the Bellagio. I pick up KK in LP and after 1 limper I make it 60 to go. Both blinds call (190).
Flop Jd9d6x - He SB leads for 50, I make it 220, he calls.
Turn 8x - He leads for 160 leaving 240 behind. fold or shove?
SB seems to be a bad player - probably the worst one at the table.

all comments appreciated

1) I dont like it, I see bad players make this 100 bet often and its nearly allways AA - JJ, call and funk for a A K Q flop.

2) Mostly fine, I would be inclined to bet 300 on the river, you get paid by every hand that would call the 300 on the turn. The 600 might get rid of the Kx who should have quit on the turn.

3) I think I might find a fold here, but it really depends on what Ive seen the opponent show down.

BigCityBanker

#1 - Im surprised I got such a negative reaction to this hand. I actually thought (hence i put it up here to be corrected) it was a near perfect spot to take down $270 without having to see a flop. If I call the $60 preflop I have $100 invested and may have to C/F the flop more often than not. If I flop a draw I could easily invest another $220 without success so I figured I might as well try take it down preflop. The raise from the SB made no sense and I reckoned it was best just to treat it as a donkey play. I figured it as the sort of hand that a guy feels he is obliged to raise with AJ/AQ/99-JJ and did so not considering the previous actions at the table or his position. I reckon he raises with more venom and exciteent with AA/KK/AK. Everyone insta folded and the SB tabled AQo when folding - I told them I probably overplayed my AA a little! Im still out on this one but notable players have told me its bad so i suppose I have to listen.

Hand 2 - As the overcards came I figured he was closer and closer to having a set. I still didnt want to slow down though as I feared losing value on my holding. I was principally concerned with my river bet. I couldnt understand why he could fold after getting that far. I regretted not betting 300/350 to ensure I got called but i wasnt sure if this would be appropriate.

Hand 3 - I was in the tank for a couple of mins on this hand. I just couldnt figure it out. What was he donk betting for? And again on the turn? Nicky mentioned that he hated my flop raise? I dont understand this. It is a pretty drawy board and I really think I need to protect my hand. If you have reasoning as to why I should not raise here please tell me why. Anyway I figured i was getting a decent price against somebody I considered to be the worst player at the table. Against a player I had morre respect for I reckoned I would have laid it down. I shoved and he insta called and tabled K 9. Unbelieveable stuff!!

thanks for the replies.

kryogen

1. Its a good strong play,they need a very big hand to be playing after your re raise here, but the reasons why you maybe shouldnt are that you said the table was tight/passive, so surely if a player is re raising pre flop then e has a big hand?? is it really a tight/passive table?

2. Seems fine,maybe just try get a little more in on the flop so that he has to call your river push? or maybe bet less on the river to ensure a call.

3. I dont have much of a problem with your play here, you have shown strength pre flop, you are following through post flop, you need to raise here anyway! if he is a bad player in your opinion and you have seen him do stupid things then he could be leading with TP,straight draw, flush draw, and considering what he has behind on the turn i just set him in if i dont respect his play that much, i could obviously find a fold if i thought he was a batter player. but if you think hes dirt, collect his chips!

Ace2007

hand 1 - would have just flat called his raise

hand 2 - played fine -

hand 3 - would have reraised him all in on the turn - if he is as you say "probably the worst one at the table"

cardshark202

Your thinking is way way off in hand 1. You should call here because you want to play this hand multiway with a lot of money behind as opposed to HU vs AA with little behind. Also reasoning that you will probably miss the flop or flop a draw and miss is a terrible excuse for 4betting here. You said the table was playing quite tight and passive, then suddenly a guy 3 bets small in a multiway pot and you think its a good idea to 4bet?

Hand 2 I dont like your betsizing. I prefer to raise more on the flop, make it like 400 and shove the turn.

Hand 3 shove is good if hes that bad.

insafehands

Hand 1, whether or not this is +EV move, I like it a lot.

BigCityBanker

cardshark202 wrote:

Your thinking is way way off in hand 1. You should call here because you want to play this hand multiway with a lot of money behind as opposed to HU vs AA with little behind.

I dont remember saying anywhere that the SB was a bad player or that I hd previously seen him make poor 3 bets, but his pansy raise leads me to believe he isnt much good. He has done nothing to suggest that he has any of the 3 hands that at a stretch should be willing to call my 4 bet. likewise none of the players behind have done anything to suggest that they have one of those 3 hands (maybe AK calls behind but should fold now). Im still not saying my move was a good one but i feel ppl are only reading and interpreting the parts they feel like.

I dont understand how it is preferable to play a multiway pot with J10 rather than try take it down preflop, this actually makes little or no sense to me as im gonna be oop to up to 4 players (maybe less) and have position on 1 - the 3 bettor. The table is playing tight as hell and they have done nothing to suggest they have one of the select hands they require to play for $320. On the other hand I have. What range of hands can they reasonably assign to me based on my actions? On that basis there should only be one hand they call with = AA. They should believe that AK is likely drawing all but dead on my actions or at best drawing to 3 outs. KK should feel he is behind but will surely call anyway. Tight players dont call 4 bets with QQ or worse unless they have a sick sick read.

When in doubt I feel its best to assume he is a donkey and thats what I went with.

320 to win 270 (or considering i have 40 in the pot already should that be a further 280 to win 310? Im not sure on this? Anybody?) - I need to be correct a little more than 50% of the time to make this play profitable. I felt at the time table conditions and the dynamic of the hand dictated that I would be correct more than 50% of the time in this spot.

sikes

how deep are you in hand1? If you are deep enough calling >>> than raising, as JTs is one of the best hands to take in a multiway pot against any players. In saying that, if we know AQ is in his range, the raise could be +EV but you need him to be raising and folding some pairs too.

EDIT: you ignore the money in that you have already put in the pot, its part of the pot you are now fighting for.

BigCityBanker

sikes wrote:

how deep are you in hand1? If you are deep enough calling >>> than raising, as JTs is one of the best hands to take in a multiway pot against bad players. In saying that, if we know AQ is in his range, the raise could be +EV but you need him to be raising and folding some pairs too.

Hand 1 - Im playing c.1600, SB playing c.1100, Im cant remember others.

How often am i likely to flop a draw I can continue with profitably oop to multiple players.

As for raising and folding some pairs? JJ and QQ have been folded face up at the table within the past hour or so. The only 4 bet hand involved KK v AA after the KK limp raised and then the AA shoved and was called by the KK.

sikes

you will flop a very strong hand 27% of the time, ie enough to get the stack in the middle with loads of FE and loads of pot equity. Thats 2pair+/straight draw/flush draw.

22% of the time you will flop a straight or a flush draw.

Lazare

BigCityBanker wrote:

I dont understand how it is preferable to play a multiway pot with J10 rather than try take it down preflop, this actually makes little or no sense to me as im gonna be oop to up to 4 players (maybe less) and have position on 1 .

I would much rather see a multi way flop with Js10s than take it preflop (even OOP), with J10 your guaranteed action when you do hit a big draw, so not only are you likely going to get 9/1 pre flop, your implied odds are generally huge too.

If your read is you'll take it preflop (and your reads are usually very good) why waste this opportunity, use any two.

cardshark202

Lol donkeys dont fold any sort of decent pair or big ace preflop.

You can call the 60 with some great implied odds, something i feel you have ignored here. Calling is far superior here, especially vs bad players.

phantom_lord

yeah, taking a flop in a multi-way (no ones gonna be folding for 60) with j10s deep is way better than taking this down preflop. looking at that action 4betting looks really ugly to me anyway.

cardshark202

Just seen that he folded AQ in hand 1. I think you got so lucky and given your original post there is no way in hell we can assume he ever has AQ there.

phantom_lord

yeah, what range did u put him on after he 3bets from the sb after all those callers when the table's playing tight?

fuzzbox

I would bet more on the turn in hand 2

There is 120 + 640 in the middle (760) and you only bet 300 of your 900.
If you bet 450 there, and he calls, he will find it really hard to fold the remaining 450 on the river with a 1660 pot before your bet - making a 2k total.

BigCityBanker

sikes wrote:

you will flop a very strong hand 27% of the time, ie enough to get the stack in the middle with loads of FE and loads of pot equity. Thats 2pair+/straight draw/flush draw.

22% of the time you will flop a straight or a flush draw.

Thanks Sikes – I actually underestimated this.

cardshark202 wrote:

Lol donkeys dont fold any sort of decent pair or big ace preflop. .

I don’t know what 5/10 game you were playing in Vegas but the one you talk of was not the one I was playing and didn’t exist there from my limited experience in a small sample of card rooms. I have said the table was playing tight but you seem to have skipped over that point, JJ and QQ has been folded face up with alarming regularity at this table. I was all but certain that only 2 hands called me at this table. I fully expected AK to be folded.

In another 5/10 game I 3 bet a guy holding AJ and he folded AK face up and he was only playing 30BB’s.

cardshark202 wrote:

You can call the 60 with some great implied odds, something i feel you have ignored here. .

yeah, I certainly underestimated this at the time.

cardshark202 wrote:

Calling is far superior here, especially vs bad players.

Im still not buying that it is far superior to play a marginal hand multiway oop irrespective of opponents. All I can assume is that your post flop play is better than mine. At best I would think it is marginally preferable rather than far superior and even at that it is subject to the individuals at hand.

phantom_lord wrote:

looking at that action 4betting looks really ugly to me anyway.

Can you elaborate as to why you view it as really ugly?

phantom_lord wrote:

yeah, what range did u put him on after he 3bets from the sb after all those callers when the table's playing tight?

As stated above in a random game you can expect players to do something out of habit rather than with good reason. I actually thought he had what you might class as pretty cards 99-JJ, AQ/AJ formed a large part of his range for me. Hands that a random player feels obliged to raise with as a matter of course rather than stepping back and analysing the situation. Obviously all the premium hands are within that range also. But once I 4bet his calling range has narrowed drastically.

To me his raise from the SB was akin to a donk bet on the flop and should be treated as same. In a random live game how often is the raise to 100 a cunning raise from a good player hoping that I come over the top vis a vis a donk raise from a bad player who raises out of habit with selected hands?

fuzzbox wrote:

I would bet more on the turn in hand 2

There is 120 + 640 in the middle (760) and you only bet 300 of your 900.
If you bet 450 there, and he calls, he will find it really hard to fold the remaining 450 on the river with a 1660 pot before your bet - making a 2k total.

Thanks Fuzz. My bet sizing is something im constantly trying to work on. I think its due to the large number of Pot Limit games I play in town where the default is to generally bet the max or close to it.

Van Dice

#1 I want to play this multiway rather than go for a bluff. I think your hand has way more equity in a multiway flop rather than 4betting. Anyone who makes a 3-bet to 100 after the previous action is a donkey, and donkeys cannot be relied upon to fold ATo+ to a 4-bet.

#2 Lead. Lead for 120, and then your read on the player and your previous play determine whether to shove over a raise, or to call and CRAI on turn. If he's seen you be very aggressive with draws then i try to get it all in on the flop, it being rainbow is unlucky. Reasoning here is that unless he is retarded he sees your hand as 44 or JT. Very little else you can have, and the way you played it, I don't think he can expect to see anything other than 44 here almost always.
I prefer raising this preflop too, if you get 3-bet, see if you have implied odds. Limping only small pairs is bad imo.

#3

BigCityBanker wrote:

SB seems to be a bad player - probably the worst one at the table.

This + him playing shortstacked means this shouldn't even be a question. Shortstackers are donks. Shove, and wait for pot to be shipped in your direction 100% of the time.

cardshark202

BigCityBanker wrote:

Thanks Fuzz. My bet sizing is something im constantly trying to work on. I think its due to the large number of Pot Limit games I play in town where the default is to generally bet the max or close to it.

So you decide to bet nowhere near the pot in a no limit game?


Also do you think most bad players will fold jacks to a 4 bet when they have money behind? And try to include all the info like the table had suddenly been folding queens and jacks face up preflop loads. Also at a table where players will 3 bet with 99 and AJ as standard is not what i think of when i think of a tight live cash game table.

BigCityBanker

cardshark202 wrote:

So you decide to bet nowhere near the pot in a no limit game?.

cardshark202 wrote:

Also at a table where players will 3 bet with 99 and AJ as standard

Where did I say either of the above things?

cardshark202 wrote:

Also do you think most bad players will fold jacks to a 4 bet when they have money behind?

You are assuming that the table is full of bad players. Ive not said that this was my impression. And yes I do expect that most players in this game will fold JJ to a 4 bet. The 4 bet is the shot of realisation they require to understand that they are fooked. Do you expect a table which has been playing "quite tight" to call a 4bet with JJ preflop? My game selection over there was obviously pants.

cardshark202 wrote:

And try to include all the info like the table had suddenly been folding queens and jacks face up preflop loads.

I have said I have seen it folded face up with alarming regularity. The default amount of times I expect to see this happen in a 5/6 hour session is 0. So when it happens maybe 3 times in that period I count that as alarming regularity and not "loads" as you put it.

Hectorjelly

I like the play in hand 1 and I think people are vastly estimating how profitable it is to play TJs in a multiway raised pot. (Not saying it isnt profitable, but id much rather take down the 260 preflop). In fact with 1k stacks theres no way you have that much equity anyway

hand 2 the bet sizing is really bad. turn bet is less than half what it should be. You want to get the money in fast

hand 3 easy shove vs a bad player

NickyOD

The criticism of hand 1 is ridiculously harsh. If BCB has enough certainty a 4 bet preflop will win the pot then that's what he should do regardlass of his cards. His read of the numpty in the BB is spot on and he should get a lot of credit for it.

BigCityBanker

HectorJelly wrote:

I think people are vastly estimating how profitable it is to play TJs in a multiway raised pot..

Im guessing you mean vastly overestimating?

NickyOD wrote:

His read of the numpty in the BB is spot on and he should get a lot of credit for it.

Im not looking for credit Nicky - I put the hand up for objective comment. As I said I thought the play was fine but often plays I think are fine are absolute pants. I have taken all comments on board. Maybe I should put the hand up on a scandanavian poker forum :eek: they might fall in love with the agression

FWIW, I think people are failing to recognise that if a player is bad enough to betsize that poorly from the SB in a multiway pot then they are also bad enough to do it with a range of hands that should, even by a donkey, be autofolded to a 4 bet from the only person at the table who has taken a really strong line.

cardshark202

HJ, you read the first post and expected the the BB to be raising and folding AQ there? I expected him to have a monster there given the table description, hence why I believe the 4bet is awful play.

Hectorjelly

Id expect him to have something like JJ to AK, which by Fitz standards may be a monster (!) but a lot of players will fold even queens. Whatever it is we are clearly representing AA and at a tight table with a good image against a tight moron this is a perfect spot to 4bet

edit yes thats what I meant bcb

cardshark202

I'm not convinced. I also doubt that a lot of players will just fold QQ here. Most players will at least see a flop. Same goes for JJ imo. And once these players see a flop, they usually end up getting the rest in if its a low board.

CaptainNemo

I find hand 1 interesting as it seems like basically a gamble that the opponent a) Doesn't have aces or kings, and b) Can fold queens or lower. In this case the hand you're holding (J10s) is irrelevant. You are purely acting on a read of a player that their hand is strong but not super-strong, and that they are capable of folding it.

It's also dependent on your table image. Have you been very aggressive, or have you shown down non-premium hands that you raised strongly with preflop? Or is this the first time they have seen you make a move like this?

It's a strong move and if backed up by a good read I'd say it will work. Some people are treating the discussion as if it was relevant that you have J10s as opposed to any other hand but clearly it has nothing to do with hole cards and everything to do with your read of the player in this particular situation at this exact time. I don't think you're inquiring as to whether this should be a standard +EV play with J10s!?

Lazare wrote:

If your read is you'll take it preflop (and your reads are usually very good) why waste this opportunity, use any two.

This is exactly what I mean. J10 is a decent hand, this move would be better with a trash hand that you otherwise would not be looking to play.