KK facing limp-reraise, early in €100 freezeout

CaptainNemo

I have KK on the button on the 2nd level of the Monday night €100 freezeout in the Macau. There are 2 limpers and I raise to 300 (3xBB). The 1st limper, a regular at the Macau who is a good player, and who would probably (and correctly) think I have loose raising requirements in that spot, quickly reraises to about 1800 and the 2nd limper folds. We both have stacks of around 7000-8000.

What to do next? If it's helpful, I thought he looked a little uncomfortable while I was thinking, but this could also quite easily be an act. The options I'm considering are:

1) He doesn't have aces. Shove it!
2) He doesn't have aces. Call and try to trap him for a really big pot.
3) He has aces. Fold!
4) He has aces. Call and reassess after the flop.

El Stuntman

your first raise seems a little low with two limpers but hey you got a dream situation here

shove, bb sticky if he has the bullets

lol at scenario 4 btw

padser

Its not a BB if he has AA.


I don't think you can really fold. You initial raise was too low for him to be re raising with only AA. He could certainly also be doing it with AK KK and QQ. I don't think a fold is realistically an option.

Calling with position and folding if there is an A on the flop is a possibility as it takes away a lot of his value with AK - all in all though I probably think I shove here - if I run into AA - Cest la vie.

padser

double post

padser

triple post.

MacStacked

If u think he will call a shove, get them all in now by all means. If not, call and get them in on any flop.

Moneymaker

Shove. If he has AA its a cold deck and curse your luck.

valor

call to trap

Tar.Aldarion

shove to trap.

BobSloane

Where did he limp from? If it was around MP i would think it less likely that he has AA.
Is he a serial continuation bettor? If I thought calling would almost guarentee that he would shoot 2.5 or 3k more into the pot on the flop then i'd probably just call.

Tar.Aldarion

But if you just call an ace comes on the flop 97% of the time.

BobSloane

Thats a bit high. Its more like 75%.
Perhaps your adding in the % that the flop comes all one suit - a suit that you don't have. That's approx 20% I think

sitout

i had jj. your right i was uncomfortable when you were in the tank i had eaten a large chicken curry before i came in and i needed the toilet bad(lol).only messing. The only thing i would have done differently if i were you in this situation was maybe raise a fraction more pre flop 400/450 as you know the range of hands your going to be called with for 3bb raise when the blinds are so small(in the macau). it was an obvious lay down when you come over the top! how did you finish up btw, i left after being knocked out just to tired to play cash last night!
ps;sound for showing when i asked i never show but i owe you one for that!

CaptainNemo

I was very firmly putting him on QQ here or just possibly JJ. I also thought that if I shoved he would fold those hands and AK suited or unsuited, and only call with aces. So the reason I'm posting this is because I was wondering if in this spot pushing is a bad move because I only get called if I'm beaten.

I don't usually like to trap before the flop with a big pair. I also didn't know what I would do if I called and an ace flopped. I did end up shoving, and he thought for a while and folded his Jacks, but the hand bothered me for a while afterwards and I thought that calling may have been a better option, with the intention of calling any bet after the flop or going all in if it's checked to me.

What I really want is to double up here, if my read is correct and he has a very good underpair. A call probably gives me the best chance of doing that, with an additional risk of having the pot taken away from me if an ace flops.

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

how did you finish up btw, i left after being knocked out just to tired to play cash last night!

I had aces twice and kings twice in the first 3 levels so I was doing great, then I had 3 disasters in a row. I spewed about 3000 chips on a silly bluff against a calling station, then I got bluffed off a pot myself when I had AQ on a K high flop, then I was short-stacked for a while but managed to get myself all-in with 99 against 55 to more than double up, except that the 5 hit on the river and I went out in 9th or something.

I'm telling you, I do much better in tournaments when I'm getting suited connectors, not premium hands!

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

The only thing i would have done differently if i were you in this situation was maybe raise a fraction more pre flop 400/450 as you know the range of hands your going to be called with for 3bb raise when the blinds are so small(in the macau). it was an obvious lay down when you come over the top!

See this is why I started the thread. The way I played it, there's just no way I get paid off, but a reasonable chance I get busted by aces. I think it was a weak play by me.

If I flat call you and the flop comes 459 or something, do you think you go bust?

P.S. you're right the preflop raise is too small. And I guess if the flop comes J high I go bust...so maybe it's better to not overthink this hand...

sitout

CaptainNemo wrote:

If I flat call you and the flop comes 459 or something, do you think you go bust?

its hard to say if i go broke , but you get another bet from me for sure. if i bet the pot,(which i most probally will do on this flop) 2kish your most likley comming over the top yea? then i have to evaluate what kinds of hands your making that move with and tbh there are a good few 10s,qqs,kks,aa,99 and even the other two jacks! so seeing as its still early and if i fold il still have 3500ish (enough to play with still) id like to think i would fold. However the way i was fealing last night(wrecked after a heavy weekend) my grey matter might not have sussed what was going on and you could well have taken it all! who knows!

CaptainNemo

sitout wrote:

its hard to say if i go broke , but you get another bet from me for sure. if i bet the pot,(which i most probally will do on this flop) 2kish your most likley comming over the top yea? then i have to evaluate what kinds of hands your making that move with and tbh there are a good few 10s,qqs,kks,aa,99 and even the other two jacks! so seeing as its still early and if i fold il still have 3500ish (enough to play with still) id like to think i would fold. However the way i was fealing last night(wrecked after a heavy weekend) my grey matter might not have sussed what was going on and you could well have taken it all! who knows!

I think the most likely scenario is that we get all in, you go runner-runner straight, and I get berated by a couple of others at the table..."That's what yeh get for slowplaying them kings lad!"

sitout

wishfull thinking on my behalf! lol

cardshark202

Call and shove over a bet on the flop

yahoo_moe

CaptainNemo wrote:

What I really want is to double up here, if my read is correct and he has a very good underpair. A call probably gives me the best chance of doing that, with an additional risk of having the pot taken away from me if an ace flops.

yeah, i probably call here too, pretty much for this reason - you've got position, a hand that doesn't scare too easy and you'll get more chips more often... you'll often pick up at least another biggish bet on the flop and i think shoving PF makes it a lot less likely that you pick up all his chips

phantom_lord

cardshark202 wrote:

Call and shove over a bet on the flop

yeah.

Moro Man

sitout wrote:

your right i was uncomfortable when you were in the tank i had eaten a large chicken curry before i came in and i needed the toilet bad......


How Uncomfortable do you think the rest of the table felt.....:p

CaptainNemo

I'm glad people seem to be agreeing that calling is a much stronger move here. I felt as soon as I'd stuck in my chips that it was an overexcited, donkey play and it bothered me for about 10 minutes afterwards while I tried to think what the best thing to do was.

Ironically about half an hour later I felted a guy with AA when he had KK and instapushed over the top of my big reraise preflop.

valor

your first raise is too small too, i would make it $450

CaptainNemo

valor wrote:

your first raise is too small too, i would make it $450

Yep, I was lucky that sitout had such a strong hand and came over the top. If he flat calls and the other limper calls then I can't feel too comfortable with my hand if I'm getting a lot of action after any flop without a K on it.

The reason I did it was for deception purposes. 3xBB is my standard opening raise whether I have a huge hand or a pile of crap and I wanted it to look like I was making a standard aggressive play on the button without much of a hand.

HUSH HUSH

CaptainNemo wrote:

Yep, I was lucky that sitout had such a strong hand and came over the top. If he flat calls and the other limper calls then I can't feel too comfortable with my hand if I'm getting a lot of action after any flop without a K on it.

The reason I did it was for deception purposes. 3xBB is my standard opening raise whether I have a huge hand or a pile of crap and I wanted it to look like I was making a standard aggressive play on the button without much of a hand.

Most players I think would accept any flop like Q94 with KK..... AQ being the original sucker raise calling hand. Any flop that doesn't include an ace is all most would be praying for.

If you start raising more the better the hand pre flop it won't take too long for players to notice the pattern

CaptainNemo

HUSH HUSH wrote:

Most players I think would accept any flop like Q94 with KK..... AQ being the original sucker raise calling hand. Any flop that doesn't include an ace is all most would be praying for.

If you start raising more the better the hand pre flop it won't take too long for players to notice the pattern

That's my thinking about raises. I think you should pick a standard PF raise and stick with it - I think it's more important not to give away information than it is to bet the mathematically optimal amount for the kind of hand you're playing.

For instance many people will bet 3xBB with AA or KK in 1st position, but will raise 4 or 5xBB with JJ, TT, or other hands that want to discourage too much action. It's very easy to read hand strength from these bets and therefore you might be able to do things like call the bet with an otherwise foldable hand like KQ, figuring to have 2 overcards - or maybe even come over the top with that hand! That's why when people like Dan Harrington talk about bet sizes in different positions they say you should mix it up a certain % of the time.

I don't know about anyone else, but I have too much to think about already at the poker table without trying to work out some game theory methodoligy by which I ensure that I raise 5xBB with Jacks in 1st position 60% of the time, 4xBB 20% of the time and 3xBB 20% of the time. This kind of advice strikes me as purely theoretical. If you want your raises to be unreadable, I think it's far more practical to have a standard raising amount and then play well after the flop.