Production as a creative process

cornbb

This thread is aimed at generating discussion around what part the production process plays in contributing to the creative, compositional aspects of music as opposed to merely its functional, "tidying up" aspect. I've thought a lot about it after listening to a lot of new types of music in recent years and I'd like to hear other producers' or engineers' thoughts.

To start off with an example, I recall seeing a Bill Bailey sketch where he slagged off U2's The Edge, claiming that he wasn't as great a guitarist as everyone thought because "its all effects". Now I'm not a U2 fan at all but my view is that considerate, consistent and thoughtful use of effects is as valid a form of composition/musicianship as conventional arrangement of notes/chord sequences/phrases or what have you.

Many forms of music (say classical, folk or trad) have no place for such "creative" use of music production techniques or music technology, except as the usual purely functional aspects like instrument separation, clarity, stereo imaging, reverb etc. Rock music (and jazz too, I think) has a limited place for creative production, take The Edge example above. I also noticed a lot of stand-out production in the new Smashing Pumpkins album.

Other genres offer further possibilities. Most electronic music artists take on the entire music production process, from composition to arrangement to mixing to post production to performance. Even the instruments themselves are usually "composed" from scratch! The wonderful thing about this is that anyone without "traditional" musical knowledge (of scales, tonality and all that malarkey) can put minimal effort into writing melodies and such, and create great innovative forms of music through effect automation, splicing, creative arrangement, and other techniques which have traditionally been the reserve of the mixing engineer.

I hope you can see what I'm getting at. What I'm basically saying is that we are in a very exciting era for the mixing engineer/producer; the new tools and techniques at our disposal allow us to move out of merely modifying/perfecting someone else's music and become composers in our own right. And while this is easier for producers of electronic music, it definitely has its place in rock and other types of music too. Its easier in electronic music though, because listeners don't have preconceptions about how a particular instruments should sound, thereby offering the artist more scope to do what s/he thinks is cool

So what are other people's opinions on this? Do you consider your mixes to be purely functional or are they an important part of the creative process when making music? Can you think of examples of music where the production values are so important that they almost outshine the "traditional" songwriting values?

Debate!

pinksoir

i would like to think that production is an art in itself. If you look at, for example, George Martin and Phil Spektor, their production added so much to the music. George Martin pioneered so many new studio techniques that it's unreal. He was also classically trained, and it was this fusion with the Beatles songwriting that pushed them past the rest. Imagine Sgt. Pepper without all that lovely production...Funny to think he started of recording comedy records.

As for now, we have come such a long way production-wise. The very idea of messing around with electronics to create something new dates back to the seventies really. Think along the lines of Stevie Wonder using TONTO in Innervisions. But now with electronic music, whilst there is a load of great stuff, there is too much cack to sift through. It's true when you say that even people with no prior knowledge of music theory or even play an instrument can make music, but is that necessarily a good thing? I don't mean this in an elitist way, but I do know quite a few people who produce electronic music and are adamant about not using real instruments ever because "you can do it better electronically". Meaning that whatever you can play on a real instrument (ie drums) can be reproduced artificially, so what's the point in using real instruments? Now obviously anyone with experience of, or indeed any interest in the traditional instruments would understand that there are the incalculable nuances and subtleties in plaing an instrument that can't be reproduced artificially.

But maybe I am being close-minded and not seeing the bigger picture, that is as you said, truly innovative forms of music can be created.

But like I say, production is an art in itself. I like to look at it as an extra instrument. They didn't call george Martin the 5th Beatle for nothing, eh?

Neurojazz

I think a lot of this comes down to how the person is trained or trains themself... Post production becomes an artform if the producer can pull it off and even though there are tools that can do a lot of work for the producer it comes right back at their ears, experiences and how to apply them.

If someone said to me 'here is some music, go mad' - i would re-write parts that i thought were weak, re-arrange so it flows to how i perceive it to be able to flow and then work on it to make the persons music appeal to many ears from a listeners perspective... all of that is 'pre-production' and then post can be something as subtle as the tonal play of effects on the kinesthetic motion in the music or huge noises added to give the listener the giggles... all this stuff i can spend weeks on making it shine as much as possible...

I apply myself as an artist/businessman - true art - the best of both worlds

I work as hard as i can - give it my all - i'm just a tool that responds to my ears pleasure.

frobisher

I think that writing music has the capacity to be art whereas production/engineering is a craft. Obviously the line can be blurred sometimes but I reckon that's it in a nutshell across most genres. Modern tools have meant that music is sometimes now recorded at the very instant it is written and as a result entire genres have to come to be moulded by the limits and/or freedoms offered by the equipment used. That to me is the art of music mixed in with the craft of production at a deeper level.

Unlike other art forms I beleive the essence of music is something that exists in it's purest form when being listened to rather than when it is being created. Just because something was created with pre made loops and no musical knowledge doesn't mean that it isn't valid. If it sounds good it is good.

Cornbb: I'll totally have to disagree with your point about electronic musicians having it easier with creating sounds because there is less expectation from listeners about how things should sound. I personally make things sound the way I want as much as I can and that is not in any way dictated by wanting to either obey or break any notions of how things should sound to my listeners. But you electronic boys loving rolling out this point, don't you!!?

pinksoir

In relation to your question about production outshining the songwriting, I was listening to the radio the other day and I heard a song by Fiona Apple called 'Tymps'. so I got the album based on the fact that the production was so good. Now I wouldn't really eb a fan of Fiona Apple or indeed any of the loungy ****e she's generally associated with (Nora jones etc) but the album is great. The songwriting is good, but it's really the production that is of note.

Apparently the album was held back by the label because there were no apparent singles on it, and there are leaked copies of the unfinished product floating about the intro-web that do indeed sound lacking.

So I think they got a new producers in and effectively re-recoreded the whol;e thing. The producers are Brian Kehew from Moog Cookbook, and Mike Elizondo. Apparently ?uestlove is associated with it too. The result is an album that marries the best parts of traditional songwriting/instruments and electronic music production. It's a real treat to the ears.

Incidently, it's the best such marriage I have heard since 'Karuki Zemen kuri No Hana' by Shiina Ringo, which you should check out if you have never heard. It's amazing.

On a side not, Ringo means 'apple' in Japanese.

Jimbo808

I think the emphasis on how much work a Producer does is understated here.

Primarily it is a Producers job to come out with a finished product that is of an extremely high standard. That means he is responsible for EVERYTHING on the record. Not just effects, separation, treatment etc. Alot of that is already given and performed by the engineer. Production in itself, in the modern setting has evolved nto a massivly musical role, with the producer taking on an extreme amount of responsibility for the track. Having worked on numerous commercial recordings myself, Iv found the following to be true:

- A Producer MUSt be a skilled songwriter. Anyone who has listened to any of the albums that Quincy Jones has written with Michael Jackson can understand that fact.

- In order to stay relevant, a Producer MUST be technologically skilled and well versed. This point is a matter of taste but personally I don't consider it an option. If you want to be competitive, you better know your stuff.

- Creativity:

1. Having the ability or power to create:
2. Productive; creating.
3. Characterized by originality and expressiveness; imaginative.

Even though it is music we are talking about, the overall product is a result of many different processes, each of which has enormous scope to be created, with the limitations literally being the Producers imagination/ability.

- Style. Producers that hang around and have longevitity are those with a unique sense of style. This usually stems from an originality and creativity which is all their own. Whether its the stripped down simplicity of Rick Rubin, the smoothness and mowtown filled funk of Pharrell or the sheer freshness of Timbaland, one has to admit that style plays a massive part in success.

Really what I'm trying to imply is that modern artists get alot more credit for "creativity" and musicianship than they deserve, with the real hereos sitting proudly behind the desk.

Your thoughts please:

J