bubble in WSOP ME

oooops

Just to get a feel for what some of youse boyes would do here......

Ok you are mid position on the table at the WSOP ME bubble. It's 20K if you get into the money. 5 to go to the money...

You get JJ, you are sitting on 25 or so big blinds, many more shorter stacks than you....What do you do?

It cost you 10K to enter so you've a chance to double your money if you fold and stay out of hands until the bubble is burst..20K is not exactly nothing to you..

A. FOLD

B Fk it ALL IN.

C. There is no other option other than A or B So ignore C.


Rgds
~

Ste05

With 25BB's I'd just raise it 2.5BB's. Open pushing 25BB's would be mental, and folding would be plain idiotic!!

Hitman Actual

oooops wrote:

C. There is no other option other than A or B So ignore C.



~

With 25BBs left, you have more options than push or fold. It's not really a valid question. And do the players behind you have the ability to knock you out? i.e. are they all shorter stacks than you?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

valor

raise to around 14BB

oooops

What constitutes a valid question?
it's a totally valid question, you are on the bubble FULL STOP, you have JJ in mid Position FULL STOP. The money is 20K which you will receive if you fold your way past the bubble as there are many shorter stacks in the competition.... The question is really about balls.

If you raise 2.5 BBs for example AKQ on the flop and you are probably fkd. What's the point in playing for set value for 10% of your stack.? If it comes out low you will probably have to bet agian and maybe you are then comitted..... If you raise 10BBs you are really comitting yourself and risking 20K. . At 25 BBs in the ME you should really consider yourself in a vunerable position. ..think of the position here. It's not so stragiht forward.

I'm trying to generate a mini debate on the subject as JJ is such a vunerable hand and you are in a tricky situation......I won't add more to the debate as I'd like to see other opinions ans why? The ALL in or FOLD options are really my thoughts with JJ so late in the day. ...
.(I don't think a fold can be described as IDIOTIC here we are talking 20K)


One guy in this situation actually pushed with his JJ and it held up, and so he doubled.

Hitman Actual

Pushing 25BBs to win ~3BBs on the bubble isn't +$EV.

Mr E

Raise and see a flop. All In with 5 to the money is ridiculous.

oooops

LuckyLloyd wrote:

What Ste said. Ugh if you think folding or going all - in are your only two options.

Please tell me what you'd do here and explain your reasons...

lloyd you have studied English and you use words like Ugh?
BTW. Just wondering why a lot of ye are not playing in the ME. I ain't becuase I have a fear of flying. (and JJ)


rgds

~

DeVore

I want to limp, see a flop, hit a set or no over cards and play the hand from there. Any serious action behind me and I throw them.

Critiscise at will...
DeV.

Tar.Aldarion

I would raise a couple of blinds and probably fold to a shove by somebody that covers me. It would also depend on the shover, but only short stacks would be likely to. I don't limp letting the bb in for nothing.


EDIT: somebody removed my pokerireland sig, wtf.

careca

oooops wrote:

lloyd you have studied English and you use words like Ugh?

Meow

Fcuking pc, just typed up a long reply again, only to lose it.

I would (needing the cash) raise it 3Xbb and fold to a reraise and only play AA, KK, maybe QQ (and thats a big maybe) until the bubble burst.

If you raise 3/4/5 BBs, a big stack could easily come over top, knowing bubble is near and playing it accordingly.

If you go all in, it looks like you don't want a caller, so AK, AQ will probably call, even AJ, A10.

Tricky all around.

Ste05

valor wrote:

raise to around 14BB

Interesting line, I think my 2.5BB raise might have been a bit weak, if we are raised it's more likely to be a bluff and so I would have to instantly call the all-in, but if I take your line then there's no way someone is going to bluff, so I can get away from the hand knowing I was beaten.... nh wp

oooops

I'm just jesting with Lloyd.....ugh is a perfect word . It describe all 4 of my teenage girlfriends.


Do I know you oooops...YeS you do..

Ste05

Also oooops,

I would be raising loads of hands around this bubble hand trying to exploit players such as your friend who think it's All-In or fold time with ~25BB's trying to creep into the money, and I'll tell you one thing all those raises wouldn't be All-In and therefore neither is this one. JJ is the 4th or 5th best hand there is, after you raise, you just play Poker from then on.

Ste05

DeVore wrote:

I want to limp, see a flop, hit a set or no over cards and play the hand from there. Any serious action behind me and I throw them.

Critiscise at will...
DeV.

Again, I'd never ever be limping around this time, so I wouldn't do it with JJ either. Abuse the bubble people!!

cooker3

I would raise and pray for some aggro scandi to try to bully me and come over the top of me and ship it!

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

oooops

Ste05 wrote:

Also oooops,

I would be raising loads of hands around this bubble hand trying to exploit players such as your friend who think it's All-In or fold time with ~25BB's trying to creep into the money, and I'll tell you one thing all those raises wouldn't be All-In and therefore neither is this one. JJ is the 4th or 5th best hand there is, after you raise, you just play Poker from then on.

He's no friend of mine, I hate americans they are mostly fat and loud and if they find someoone intelligent they usher them away from politics in case they do any good. I love Britney though she wear no underwear and torments my nights.

I'd like the 20k myself so I'd fold me Js seen as there are only 4 or 5 left. When I've got my hard earned 25 BBs under my belt and my 20k post bubble.
I'm going hunting. Exploiting the bubble with 25 bbs is kinda laughable as the big stacks are already doing that. Your 25Bb would soon whittle away.

I think it's kinda like the who wants to be a millionaire quiz, we all think we know what we'd do until we are in the situation......

I more scared of hooks than Peter Pan.

Tar.Aldarion

If I was scared of raising here, I would not be playing the ME and would have sold my ticket.

oooops

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

If I was scared of raising here, I would not be playing the ME and would have sold my ticket.

bully for you, ya made 10k....

think you missed the whole point of this. It's really all about timing isn't it.

20 from the bubble, this is an insta raise, here you are 4/5 away, ejits are folding AA , but you have JJ. I think people throing this away are not so foolish....JJ may be the 5th best hand but it's all relative.

I find some of the views intersting and some a bit ego centric. (as expected)

Remember you've played 3 days to get here and you must have raised with sht at some stage to survive (normally) so a JJ fold here is notz so crazy..

Having said all that I can only guess what I'd do as I won't be WSOPin until next year..(if I don't sell my ticket, cluck, cluck)

careca

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

If I was scared of raising here, I would not be playing the ME and would have sold my ticket.

Its too easy to say that. Ya we all want to say "I'm only playing for the win, scared money, etc etc". But lots of people find themselves in this position in tournaments every day. Whilst we all would like to win and ultimately play to win, there are situations where we might slow down to give us a cushion in case we don't win.

Lets say you won a FPP sat in the Sunday million on Stars and its bubble time for 2 or 3 grand (I know this wouldn't be the amount) and then the situation came up. Some people sit out until the bubble has broken, its common.

strewelpeter

valor wrote:

raise to around 14BB

Interesting reply. What do you do then if a big stack re raises you PF ?

The OP says that getting the 20K is important.

Tar.Aldarion

Well yeah, I don't think a fold is that bad., I just would never ever do it. If somebody comes over the top of you or there is a scary board, by all means fold. It's not like I am advertising going all in.
You don't give an option C, which is the best option. Let people fold aces all day if they want.
That said, last time I plyed a multiday tournament I lost following my own advice 10 from the money with 1010. :-)

cooker3

careca wrote:

Its too easy to say that. Ya we all want to say "I'm only playing for the win, scared money, etc etc". But lots of people find themselves in this position in tournaments every day. Whilst we all would like to win and ultimately play to win, there are situations where we might slow down to give us a cushion in case we don't win.

Lets say you won a FPP sat in the Sunday million on Stars and its bubble time for 2 or 3 grand (I know this wouldn't be the amount) and then the situation came up. Some people sit out until the bubble has broken, its common.

That doesn't make it the correct and optimal play though because others are doing it.
Lol @ open folding this

careca

A good example of this is the final table last year, when down to three.

Gold reraised and all in player, going all in himself and Wasicke (sp??) folded a huge hand (draw) because it was worth 2m to him if the first player gets knocked out.

Now I think everyone agrees he made the wrong decision and IMO I reckon he now knows that also. but at the time it was the big jump from third place to second that made him fold, no doubt about that. 95% of people criticised him for folding, but I reckon if we were in his shoes it would be a lot different.


/off to play astro in this fine weather
/awaits a storm of criticism on return

careca

cooker3 wrote:

That doesn't make it the correct and optimal play though because others are doing it.
Lol @ open folding this

Correct.

Although I never said it was the correct play, I said for some the cash will come into it more than others.

And I didn't advocate open folding this, but again lots would in this situation.

Lafortezza

If I was playing the WSOP I don't think I'd be trying to limp past the bubble to get 2x my money back. Why play the tournament if you're not going to shoot for the bigger prizes?
If you want to fold JJ in this position then just use your $10k entry fee to play loads of smaller tournaments.
I'd make a standard pf raise like Ste and others said, and just play poker from there.

Edit: lol you'll never guess who's back, modutilities for the win.

Hitman Actual

I'm really rusty on this stuff, but I think the best $EV way to play this is to raise a normal amount (taking into account the antes), folding to a shove by a big stack, but calling a small stack shove. I'm not sure what the cut-off point is for the size of the small stack, but having to call any more than 10BBs more off your stack sounds marginal.

I'd love to hear RoundTowers view on this; he played a great bubble game last year in the ME, iirc.

oooops wrote:

I find some of the views intersting and some a bit ego centric. (as expected)

I sense a couple of thinly-veiled 'stabs' in your posts.

bops

if you want to cash - fold or limp for nutley value
if you want to win - standard raise and call AI PF against SS or Aggro Player

it's a great time to build a stack, it's also a great time to go elbusto!

I was UTG in a big live sat (EPT) a while back when close to the bubble - i just had moved tables and it was my 1st hand - I had 8 BB's...

I look down at AKs and push - the table laughs and say i'm only gonna get called by AA - they don't know me etc...

Fold fold fold fold fold fold fold
...then the BB says well i gotta call

:mad: :eek: mutta****a

oooops

Only one person said LIMP, interesting. I should have done a poll.

ok thanks all.

btw
Antesup boyos, enjoying you coverage of the Irish laddies.

oooops

I sense a couple of thinly-veiled 'stabs' in your posts.[/QUOTE]

ooh don't say the word stabbed on Friday the 13th, I still haven't got over those movies.

LOL, I didn't think it was veiled at all.

oooops

hehehe!

Looks like I lost a fiver bet.. I said I'd last until Monday.....




OOOOOPPSolks

Hitman Actual

oooops wrote:

hehehe!

Looks like I lost a fiver bet.. I said I'd last until Monday.....




OOOOOPPSolks

lol, 24 posts was a damn fine achievement though! And I'd even go so far as to say that you're missed around here.

oooops

lafortezza wrote:

If I was playing the WSOP I don't think I'd be trying to limp past the bubble to get 2x my money back. Why play the tournament if you're not going to shoot for the bigger prizes?
If you want to fold JJ in this position then just use your $10k entry fee to play loads of smaller tournaments.
I'd make a standard pf raise like Ste and others said, and just play poker from there.

Edit: lol you'll never guess who's back, modutilities for the win.

25 BBS can turn into 50 BBS and the confidence from already winning 20K can take you to bigger things.....most guys who limp into 20k win their initial entry fee anyway so it's a big amount of dosh to them.
btw. knew you'd be the one to catch on LAF. cost me a fiver.

Lafortezza

But JJ is too strong a hand to fold even if it is on the bubble.
Alot of players will be playing very tight anyway when there's only a few hands before the money, so if a tight player reraises your 3xBB bet then you can be fairly sure he has you beat, so then you can fold.

It gets trickier if a loose and aggro big stack decides to reraise you, or if a shortstack with say 18BB goes all in.

Ace2007

Are u there to win the ME or just to get in the money?

oooops

Ace2007 wrote:

Are u there to win the ME or just to get in the money?

I'm in the ME to win as much as possible. I'm 5 from the bubble to get in the moeny. When I'm heads up with Jamie gold for 12 million, I usllay fold when he says he has the nuts.
I'm mostly though in the mood for dancing and drinking so the beer will have clouded any thoughts I have right now.

What would you do here?

oooops

lenny_leonard wrote:

lol, 24 posts was a damn fine achievement though! And I'd even go so far as to say that you're missed around here.

awww thanks Lenny, I'm filling up like Michael Landon did after he left Bonanza.


and now I'm off to see the matinnee of Die Harder 73 or something this afternoon.

Ace2007

oooops wrote:

I'm in the ME to win as much as possible. I'm 5 from the bubble to get in the moeny. When I'm heads up with Jamie gold for 12 million, I usllay fold when he says he has the nuts.
I'm mostly though in the mood for dancing and drinking so the beer will have clouded any thoughts I have right now.

What would you do here?

well i never raise preflop anyway no matter what i have - therefore limping in and seeing what happens..would be my aim- any over cards and any bets and i fold, if a low flop comes, bet - if ur reraised - then fold, if u just want to get in the money...

cooker3

Ace2007 wrote:

well i never raise preflop anyway no matter what i have - therefore limping in and seeing what happens..would be my aim- any over cards and any bets and i fold, if a low flop comes, bet - if ur reraised - then fold, if u just want to get in the money...

Are you trying to level us or something by posting the worse advice possible in every thread, I mean really?

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Ace2007

cooker3 wrote:

Are you trying to level us or something by posting the worse advice possible in every thread, I mean really?

ah come on - not the worse advice... he didn't seem as if he wanted to play that hand... and therefore would you not limp in that position???

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Ace2007

LuckyLloyd wrote:

what

just the way i seem to by playin these days, and working well at the moment..

cooker3

Ace2007 wrote:

ah come on - not the worse advice... he didn't seem as if he wanted to play that hand... and therefore would you not limp in that position???

Well no I never limp there, I either fold or raise and in this situation I always raise if it's folded round to me or if someone limped.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

Ace2007

cooker3 wrote:

Well no I never limp there, I either fold or raise and in this situation I always raise if it's folded round to me or if someone limped.

was just lookin back at previous posts... and i think Dev, says pretty much the same as me- so cooker3 - i take ur going to make a comment about his comment as well?

Four-Too

You aren't going to win many tournaments if you're struggling with this situation, there are far more difficult spots in poker, after the turn, river etc.
If you have 25bb's and your REALLY worried bout not making the money, I would just fold every hand and be blinded away, maby even leave the table, and just watch everyone else. Mathematically the odds are good that someone will be k.o.'d before you are blinded away. This is good because even if you only play AA/KK, you could get it all in on a low flop, and run into a set.

Ace2007

LuckyLloyd wrote:

I would love you at my table every time I play. Seriously. Though you can't actually play along the lines of your posts? I mean, can you?

u play in the fitz at all??

if you do, most ppl there will back me up on what i say - about how i play in tournaments. i'm a VERY tight player (in freezeouts, or tournments with one rebuy/top up)

if i have AA or KK, i'm more than happy to limp in, even flat call a raise, and see what happens on the flop.

O and i hate AQ - so i nearly always fold that.

cooker3

Ace2007 wrote:

was just lookin back at previous posts... and i think Dev, says pretty much the same as me- so cooker3 - i take ur going to make a comment about his comment as well?

I disagree with dev, how about that.