Gaggia Titanium Plus

hshortt

THIS IS A PASTE FROM MY THREAD ON CONSUMER ISSUES. It has been cross posted here as recommended.

Gaggia Titanium Plus, a new model, tons of features etc etc etc. Bought online from UK distributor, after calling to verify delivery times, product delivered from Italy. Arrived on Wednesday morning.

Read instructions, connected it all up Wednesday evening, and it's not working properly. Sent email explaining on Thursday morning. Heard nothing back so rang, no answer. Rang again and again no answer.

Friday, sent an email early to the same help address, nothing. Rang again, no answer. Friday afternoon sent another email to the help address and copied it to the info address. I got an autoreply saying store closed till 8th.

Over the weekend, made a small video of the issue and hosted it on youtube to show the dealer the issue. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2CeeVNMxys

Monday morning, sent email with links to video and I've heard nothing back. Rang the number a number of times but it's now directed to a voicemail saying ring later or text. (directed to mobile I expect)

Without response I don't know if I should just repack it and return it, or what.

Rang the Credit Card company to raise the issue, they want an 'expert opinion' to see that it's faulty before they will engage in the process. How can I get an expert opinion on a home coffee machine?

Any suggestions? (please don't tell me to have a coffee!)

UPDATES.
Gaggia contacted me yesterday and asked me to run two more tests. I did that and hosted the clip again on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf6BCQ-LxS8

As this fine forum is full of Coffee Connoisseurs can ye give me an opinion please.

Thanks
Howard

Gran Hermano

I haven't had a chance to watch both clips in full, so apologies
if you've tried this already but my first thought is that the machine
is grinding the coffee beans too fine and this is causing the slow
percolation. (The grind setting required will vary greatly depending
on the freshness and roast of the beans). Too fine a grind will also
give false 'cleaning required' messages as the too fine grounds will
clog the mechanism.

Try adjusting the machine to it's coarsest setting and see
if the espresso dispenses normally - or hopefully too fast.
If the espresso comes through you can rule out the pump part
and it's most likely trial and error to find the correct grind.
Start at the coarsest setting and then gradually adjust by
pulling shots for each setting until you dial in the right
grind for your current beans. It'll be time consuming and require you
to make several espressos.

RE*AC*TOR

The second clip looks more promising. I get that drip drip, when either I grind too fine or tamp too hard.

As I said in the PM, keep trying coarser grinds till you get between 1 and 1.5 US fl oz in 20-30 seconds.

The Titanium Plus almost overloads you with choices. Another possibly important variable is the dosing. Too much coffee in the puck will also cause the water to move too slowly through.

On the consumer side of things - sounds like the retailers are a bunch of cowboys, but I wouldn't worry too much as Gaggia's after-sales service is top-notch.

hshortt

I got some Illy beans with my deal, and I have used two full 250Gram tins on testing this out. I actually drank most of it and felt absolutely terrible for a day.

I'll do some more playing around tonight with the grind settings. Although, why bother including settings that adversely affect the use of the machine? Even the manual suggests that you 'Avoid' settings below 2 in for your grind. Yet the option is there to use.

Anyway, all this talk is making me crave getting home to brew some more. Yesterday on the phone the Gaggia engineer thought the PLUS knob wasn't working correctly, this is supposed to regulate the flow of water through the coffee to produce a stronger or weaker coffee. Doesn't seem to do much to me.

Thanks for the thoughts fellas.

RE*AC*TOR

Let us know how it goes.

rockbeer

I would very much concur with what Gran Hermano and RE*AC*TOR have suggested - It looks exactly like a too-fine-grind or puck overdose problem. Possibly a combination of the two. One of the strange things about bean to cup machines is they purport to remove the element of skill from making good coffee, yet an understanding of the variables is still required in order to get them to work properly. In particular the bean, roast, freshness and humidity all interract to determine the correct grind. There is no 'correct' out-of-the-box setting, it can only be discovered by trial and error for a given bean under any given conditions.

To get the perfect pour I have to make daily minor adjustments to the grind setting, sometimes even more frequently, depite the grinder being broadly dialled in for my usual bean.

In short, as others have said, don't assume machine error until you have fully explored the outcome of playing with the gind settings. You might also like to try a completely different bean just to see what happens.

hshortt wrote:

I got some Illy beans with my deal, and I have used two full 250Gram tins on testing this out. I actually drank most of it and felt absolutely terrible for a day.

I know how that feels - totally ODed when I got my Silvia, then did the same again when I got the Wega. I even ended up researching the lethal caffeine dose just to be sure

When you say 'testing this out' do you mean you've already played around lots with the grind setting control? If so, and without success, that would seem to reduce the chances of all being well. I'm not sure exactly how the 'PLUS' knob is supposed to work on these machines (on most standard machines the pump itself handles water supply regulation) - do you know whether it's supposed to regulate the volume of water, or just the speed of flow? FWIW, I would speculate that if you can't get a decent (or preferably too-fast) pour with both the the grind and this 'PLUS' knob set to max then you definitely have something wrong. Then again this is probably just stating the obvious

As for the recomendation not to use grind settings below 2 (super fine I guess); you might be glad of the option some day when you're stuck using really stale beans

hshortt

Thanks Rockbeer, I've done a lot of adjustments but nothing has been satisfactory in the results, I've never had an even flow into the cup no matter what settings I've established. I will play more tonight, just need to stop into Bewleys for some French Roast beans. Do you have an recommendations for a good bean, I like my coffee strong.

rockbeer wrote:

I know how that feels - totally ODed when I got my Silvia, then did the same again when I got the Wega. I even ended up researching the lethal caffeine dose just to be sure

I'm telling you, I thought I was going to pass-out, I could not think straight, concentrate or eat. Just drank lots of water to get it out of my system. But in case I do it again, is there a lethal dose?

Cheerio and thanks again for the comments and help, I'm still pissed at the retailer but hopefully this will be ok.

Cheerio
Howard

RE*AC*TOR

Hey Howard, Bewleys have some nice beans. And the key is... they're fresh. They have an espresso blend. (I assume you are talking about going into Grafton st and buying at the front counter - not buying prepacked / god knows how old stuff)...

As an alternative consider popping over to M&D in the Georges St Arcade. Very friendly and will be glad to offer you advice on which bean to grab.

hshortt

I'll be nearer Blackrock later this afternoon, and I'll get some new beans. I was previously using a Kenwood Retro and I would buy the French Roast on the finest grind. Produced a really lovely and smooth Espresso. I'm sincerely expecting better results from the Titanium Plus, given the history, brand and expense of the product.

Cheers again,
Howard

Gran Hermano

Howard, set the grind to coarsest setting and leave the plus setting
in the middle. Take a note of how long it takes to get an espresso
- stopwatch at the ready .

Then change it to coarsest grind -1 and repeat.

Keep adjusting the grind down 1 and timing until an espresso shot
takes approx 20 seconds.

Some tips on using the Titanium and Titanium plus here:
http://www.wholelattelove.com/tips.cfm?itemID=699
http://www.wholelattelove.com/tips.cfm?itemID=1288

hshortt

Gran Hermano wrote:

Keep adjusting the grind down 1 and timing until an espresso shot takes approx 20 seconds.

hmmm... twenty possible shots of Espresso then, anyone want some?

Gran Hermano

20 shots, sounds about the number I wasted whilst 'tuning in' my grinder!
You don't have to drink them all you know I also wouldn't be buying
the most expensive beans to use whilst experimenting and setting up,
it'll hopefully be a case that once you get the right setting you'll only
have to move + or - 1 to 2 from that setting depending on the beans.

rockbeer

hshortt wrote:

Do you have an recommendations for a good bean, I like my coffee strong.

I'm quite happy with Bewleys beans. Usually get the espresso roast from Grafton Street which, as RE*AC*TOR says are always fresh-roasted - the most important consideration alongside bean quality IMHO. They will usually have been roasted that day or the day before - don't think you can get fresher in Dublin unless you do it yourself.

I also like Ariosa beans - he has a stall at the Temple Bar 'farmers' market on Saturday mornings. A lot of people round here also recommend the beans from Ristretto @ http://www.ristrettocoffee.com/shop/Scripts/default.asp and I've never been disappointed with those either.

hshortt wrote:

I'm telling you, I thought I was going to pass-out, I could not think straight, concentrate or eat. Just drank lots of water to get it out of my system. But in case I do it again, is there a lethal dose?

Can't remember but it was a hell of a lot! Off the top of my head it was something like 100 cups at a sitting. Any less than that and you'll just feel utterly wretched for a while

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

hshortt

I'm all stacked up now, got a half kilo of Special French, half Kilo of Java and a half kilo of French Espresso roast. I'll probably start with these and hope to resist drinking them all. I'll keep the stopwatch handy and video tape the process when it's close to 20 seconds per shot.
Thanks for all your help.
cheerio
Howard

Mr Magnolia

Hope your winning Howard. Any reports?

I couldn't view the youtube clips this morning.

hshortt

I've not made a new clip yet I'll wait till the kids go off to bed, but I started with the French Espresso Blend. Turned the grind up to 16 (there are actually a total of 18 settings) the doser to middle which is the standard 6 grams of coffee. The water tank full, the dregs drawer empty and the system had completed it's rinse cycle. Pressed the button and .... drip, drip, drip. Very annoying.

Tried again and I got a nice steady flow, but the plus switch didn't do anything no matter what position it was in (this is the difference between the Titanium and the Titanium Plus.)

So, tried again and I get drip, drip, drip. It's completely inconsistent. Then I reduced the grind to 12 and get a steady flow, espresso in 8 seconds.

Reduce again to grind 6 and espresso in 10 seconds. Try again on this grind and it's just driping again. Try again and it's a good flow.

I'll do a couple of new clips tonight, but I really am frustrated, my wife is also annoyed as it's taking so much of my attention, and this is true!

I'll make clips to show the different grinds being selected and the results. Hopefully I can then ask Gaggia to comment. The retailer is a joke, the phone is just ringing out today.

Thanks again for the help guys.
Howard

Mr Magnolia

Thanks for the update Howard. Don't give up on it yet!

RE*AC*TOR

That does sound bad I'm afraid. The inconsistency is really strange. I imagine Gaggia will provide a replacement.

Gran Hermano

Sorry to hear the news Howard, looks like Gaggia will have to have a look at it.
If it was me I'd just mail Gaggia the timings and results you posted above
- will save you having to spend more time with the machine tonight and
having your wife more pee'd off .

I'm wondering if it's something similar to this causing your problem, but
as it's such a new machine I'd recommend leaving the tinkering to the
manufacturer.

hshortt

You know that feeling you get when you've bought something and it completely lets you down? I'll be onto Gaggia again tomorrow, the Irish ditributor is only for commercial machines so I don't expect them to provide assistance. Can't get through to the retailer so going to Gaggia directly is really the only option I have. It's a shame, I've wanted a Gaggia since I got married and always and still do consider them to be amongst the best. I sure hope I get this sorted.

Talk later,
Cheerio
Howard

RE*AC*TOR

Howard, might I offer some friendly advice, super-automatics are not necessarily the best machine for home use. Buying a separate grinder (Gaggia MDF, Rancilio Rocky, Ibertital MC2) and a semi-auto (like a Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia) would offer you a lot more freedom to control your espresso.

Because the superautos are such complicated machines with so many things going on in them, if one part of that chain becomes dodgy the whole system could fall apart.

A fully functioning super-auto could offer you good espresso, probably ahead of the likes of starbucks etc, but if you want great espresso...

The reason I say this, and I really didn't want to, because you've already spent, and I don't want to discourage you. But if you are sending the machine back, there might be a slight possibility to change for a different machine or get a refund. If that happens, I strongly suggest you consider it.

However, I will say, in favour of the super-auto, it can probably do a higher and faster throughput than a standard semi-auto, and the push a button, coffee comes out, might suit those who aren't interested in learning the techniques and finesse involved in the various steps (ie your wife).

hshortt

YUP! I appreciate the advice, bearing in mind that I've just sold on the Retro and a Krupps Burr grinder for the bargin price of 100 euro No matter what happens now this machine has given me a sour taste. I'll progress in the morning with Gaggia and remain hopeful to a good solution, otherwise I'll re-engage the Bank and get them to help me.

Thanks and cheerio
Howard

rockbeer

Hi Howard,
So sorry to hear this doesn't seem to be turning out well. It's fairly grim when a new and expensive purchase lets you down.

However Gaggia by all accounts offer excellent service and support so hopefully they will take care of you as they should and this will turn out to be a temporary disruption to the flow of good coffee for you.

I'd certainly like to hear the outcome, and particularly whether the retailer makes any effort to sort the situation out. It sounds like they may not be the best around, and while i wouldn't want to encourage anyone to badmouth a supplier on Boards, I can't help thinking it might be useful for other potential purchasers to know who these people are. So perhaps when the story reaches a conclusion you will consider letting us know who you bought the machine from.

In the meantime, please tell us how things progress from here.

Cheers for now.

Mr Magnolia

rockbeer wrote:

I'd certainly like to hear the outcome, and particularly whether the retailer makes any effort to sort the situation out. It sounds like they may not be the best around, and while i wouldn't want to encourage anyone to badmouth a supplier on Boards, I can't help thinking it might be useful for other potential purchasers to know who these people are. So perhaps when the story reaches a conclusion you will consider letting us know who you bought the machine from.

I'd also like to hear if they make any effort to sort the situation out. Howard has provided some feedback on the supplier of his machine here in the Online coffee resources thread. This can be updated if they do make an effort.

It's important for everyone to know who will stand over their sales and who won't.

hshortt

I have put details as Mr. Magnolia has mentioned into the Coffee Resources thread. I would say avoid at all costs, no responses what-so-ever.

I've made my final clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAPCrIqiw2Y this shows grinds at level six and then at level 16. I was too tired to be bothered with it really. I'm repacking the box tomorrow and sending it to the Netrade location in Cork. It came from the Netrade location in Italy so I hope this will be ok.

Cheerio and thanks again.
Howard

Mr Magnolia

Try and let us know what the outcome is.

RE*AC*TOR

Having looked at the last video, I don't think the performance is too bad, with the high grind setting. Listening to when the pump kicks in, not the first time, which is preinfusion, but the second time those shots are taking about 30 - 35 seconds. Which is long, but not terrible - I'd certainly prefer a 35 sec to a 6 sec. There are two knobs on top of the bean box, one being the grind setting, what's the other? I'd also be interested to see a shot made into an espresso cup, as its hard to tell the colour and consistency of a shot in a big cup.

Can you put pre-ground coffee in? What's the performance like with that?

hshortt

Hi RE*AC*TOR,
The two knobs in the bean hopper are one for the grind and the other for the amount (adjustable to 9grams of coffee per dose).

I have been onto the Bank and have enlisted their help in the situation. The one thing they are asking me for is a 'second opinion' from a person knowledgeable in such devices. Would any of you guys care to send me an email with your opinions that I could add into the details to back up the reason for return?

When this is all sorted I'll come back here for some advice on a good machine to buy.

Thanks again guys,
Howard

RE*AC*TOR

I have no problem sending you an email if you like.

hshortt

Hi Guys,

RE*AC*TOR, very many thanks for your help and advice, the letter is written and the machine will go back to the Cork address in the morning. The bank say it will be sorted out within a couple of days and that I'll get a credit on my account. Netrade - The company behind the website (www.best-of-italy.co.uk / www.italy-outlet.co.uk) then have 45 days to contest the chargeback. I've provided all the information so hopefully it will all work out.

I'll need some help now picking a new machine, so I'll start a new thread on that.

cheerio
Howard

hshortt

Dragging up the old thread again, I had two mail messages this morning from Netrade asking about the issue and offering to collect the product free of charge from my house.

I sent it back at 09:15 and the mail came in at midday. Could have saved myself 33.50 in shipping, but in my reply I said it had already been shipped, but should it come back to me then I'll contact them again.

Talk about 'too little, too late'

Mr Magnolia

Did you ask them about refunding you your P&P costs? Worth a shot...

Don't worry about dragging up threads, I never see it as a problem once things are relevant.

hshortt

If it comes back to me again I'll ask them to refund the shipping costs to me, and I'll give them what ever opportunities they need to collect it there after.

Cheers
Howard

Gran Hermano

Talk about 'too little, too late'

And I read that as Talk about 'too little, too latte'...
I need another coffee me thinks.

I almost bought a Gaggia MDF grinder from that crowd Howard, but I'd
a hunch they'd be a mare to deal with (maybe it was the website design
that put me off). Luckily there's a good list of decent suppliers out there
we can use without fear. I'd also go after them to refund your postage
costs.

hshortt

Gran Hermano wrote:

And I read that as Talk about 'too little, too latte'...
I need another coffee me thinks.

Plenty at my place!