Ahern disgraces himself with ''suicide'' comment

Jonny Arson

Ahern apologises for suicide remark Wednesday, 4 July 2007 13:06

Taoiseach Bertie Ahern has apologised for comments he made in a speech this morning in which he suggested that he did not know how people who engaged in moaning about the economy did not commit suicide.

Mr Ahern had been speaking about people who talk down the economy duringhis speech to the Irish Congress of Trade Unions conference.

'Sitting on the sidelines, cribbing and moaning is a lost opportunity. I don't know how people who engage in that don't commit suicide because frankly the only thing that motivates me is being able to actively change something'.

He subsequently apologised for what he described as a bad choice of words, saying he had not meant it that way.

The Taoiseach also told the ICTU that while Ireland has every reason to be confident about the economy, there are no grounds for complacency.

Mr Ahern said recent economic achievements were the outcome of good policy decisions by stakeholders in Irish society, mediated in many cases through social partnership.

He denied that the Government sought an opt out from the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights and said he wants the charter to apply as agreed in 2004.

He said the Government has merely wished to study the implications of the last minute opt out sought by the UK.

He also announced a new initiative to alleviate fees for part-time students in Third Level public institutions who have not previously pursued a Third Level qualification.

The new initiative is part of the Government's strategy to improve the skills of the workface and boost competitiveness.

The Government has also commissioned research into the impact on the economy of employment agencies.

Unions fear that the use of agency workers is undermining terms and conditions for permanent employees and is facilitating exploitations of migrant workers.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0704/economy.html

Unacceptable for a leader of this country to be making such harsh and immensely sensitive comments.

Spud83

So he made a gaf, that will have offended some people not everyone. Thats the problem with politics people focus attention on stupid comments like this instead of dealing with actual issues. Que the outrage from the opposition and more wasted time.

mike65

Oh please not more of this shi1te, Eamon Keane on Newstalk got 20 mins out of this then RTE does likewise.

Its a non-story, move along.

Mike.

gbh

I'd get more upset about a bad choice of policy than a bad choice of words.

Gone West

mike65 wrote:

Its a non-story, move along.

Mike.

`QFE

Lemming

"A gaff"? Noooo .. that was a bit more vindictive than a gaff, but it gives us a valuable insight into the current mindset of the "beloved" Beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeertie.

A man who is feeling very much under-siege, isolated, in denial that there are *any* problems, and quite possibly getting very paranoid of long knives in the night ....

Incidentally, his assertion of social partnership being a success are idiotic. The social partnership deals have brought this country to its knees competitively by creating an insane distortion between public & private sector pay.

He also engaged in double-speak with the whole "be confident but not complacent", which to me reads, "we're in trouble lads so please keep an eye out so that you'll bail me out".

CiaranC

Does the media in this country live on a different planet than the rest of us? Honestly, who cares.

Jonny Arson

LOL @ the Bertie sympathizers desperately trying sweep his astonishing comments under the carpet

Bertie has been rattled for the past few days attempting to drown out the realism that our economy is up the sh!t creek. Firstly, if we aren't buying 500k shoeboxes in Leitrim were are not patriotic and now if any of us have an iota of realism by voicing our criticisms on the appalling state our economy is in we will inevitably commit suicide. Also, lets not forget, him and his Fianna Fáil government have disgracefully neglected mental health services in this country, for him to be using suicide remarks with his track record on this sensitive issues is appalling.

As Lemming said, his comments of recent days are a genuine reflection of the mentality behind good aul' Bertie.

How some people can have confidence in this man running our country is beyond me.

Fratton Fred

more pressure for Bertie will only increase his popularity, isn't that how it works?

storm in a teacup and a pointless one at that.

DadaKopf

Very divisive way of putting things, Bertie.

"Either trade away your social and economic rights, or die."

While the gaff is a minor incident in the grand scheme of things, it's very indicative of the grand scheme of things.

Akrasia

DadaKopf wrote:

Very divisive way of putting things, Bertie.

"Either trade away your social and economic rights, or die."

While the gaff is a minor incident in the grand scheme of things, it's very indicative of the grand scheme of things.

And how ironic it is that during the 'boom' years, Ireland's rate of Suicide has been increasing even over the dark days of the 80's

DadaKopf

Very interesting. Have you figures for that?

Giblet

Akrasia wrote:

And how ironic it is that during the 'boom' years, Ireland's rate of Suicide has been increasing even over the dark days of the 80's

Maybe from the resulting pressure to succeed? I'm sure there are a number of causes.

mike65

I'd look at the demographics, which age group kills themselves quickest and are there alot of them over the last decade?

Mike.

Executive Steve

in fairness, i'm a rabid anti bertie type of guy, i eat whole organic foods, protest against roads and used to have a nose ring, but for god's sake, of ALL the things they could (and should) be screaming for his head on a plate over this is simply MORONIC.

and i have lost 5 friends to suicide in the last decade too.


[edit - i wasn't calling bertie moronic, i was calling anyone who calls this a "disgrace" moronic while presumably sitting on the sidelines on issues that are actually, you know, important ]

themurt

According to the news page on eircom.net, Mr. Ahern made the remarks going "off script" in a speech he was giving to the ICTU. As an off the cuff aside a comment like this is pretty insensitive but nothing you wouldn't hear down the pub or elsewhere. But to say something like that as part of a speech you are delivering as Taoiseach, deviating from prepared remarks, is a little harder to forgive, especially considering the nature of the issue and the number of families it effects in Ireland.

Akrasia

DadaKopf wrote:

Very interesting. Have you figures for that?

I had detailed figures somewhere but I've misplaced them at the moment

According to this story, Suicide had increased 7 fold since 1980 http://www.breakingnews.ie/2006/04/05/story252615.html

DadaKopf

1985 being the big economic policy shift associated with the 'Celtic Tiger'.

mike65

“In 1998 we recorded the highest rate of suicide ever in this country – 514 people died by suicide. This was the height of the Celtic Tiger and there was huge economic growth,” said Ms Cox, whose book tells the tales of the families affected by suicide.

The Celtic 'Tigger' was about 2 years old in 1998 so are we saying that in the space of 2 years people started to feel so useless they started topping themsleves en masse?

Mike.

Jackie laughlin

Bertie may have talents but speaking isn't one of them.

DadaKopf

mike65 wrote:

The Celtic 'Tigger' was about 2 years old in 1998 so are we saying that in the space of 2 years people started to feel so useless they started topping themsleves en masse?

Mike.

I think you know the answer to that.

This is a correlation, which requires explanation. But the question is still valid: why, at a time of economic growth rather than decline, did suicides go up?

Either way, it's a dumb thing for Bertie to say - clearly a rhetorical device to cloud over the legitimate issue of social and economic rights in Ireland, post-Celtic Tiger.

SkepticOne

A pretty moronic way to put things but I think more worrying is his attitude to those who might feel that the economy has been mismanaged.

I wonder who exactly the comments are aimed at. In the recent election not one of political parties suggested that the economy was on anything but a sure footing. Their criticism, if any, was more focused on the way wealth was shared out. Possibly he meant the ESRI who have come out with a few slightly less than euphoric reports about the economy recently.

MooseJam

Bertie is fantastic, the economy is in great shape, anyone disagreeing is just sour grapes because Bertie is still in charge - ie Fine Gael supporters, seriously lads get over it, you will have another opportunity in five or six years

mike65

This is a correlation, which requires explanation. But the question is still valid: why, at a time of economic growth rather than decline, did suicides go up?

I suspect its about the perception of failure, when we're all in the ****e no-one is expected to succeed, when the good times roll you are expected to have a job and make something of yourself and I guess some think expectations of ones parents/friends are actually important and have little 'imagination/independant thinking' so can't see past that.

As for the notion of an almost expedential rise, clearly that tosh, I'm old enough to remember suicide not being mentioned in polite society, when the Theme From Mash (Suicide is Painless) was released in 1980 it caused some
controversy. Media reporting of death back then used ambigious langauge but I think folk knew what they reading about.

Someone may know better but I'm not sure the state even kept offical records compiled from coroners offices.

You can see the change when people are described as "Suicideologists" imagine such a term 20-30 years back.

Mike.

DadaKopf

I suspect its about the perception of failure, when we're all in the ****e no-one is expected to succeed, when the good times roll you are expected to have a job and make something of yourself and I guess some think expectations of ones parents/friends are actually important and have little 'imagination/independant thinking' so can't see past that.

Well, in the absence of facts and robust theories explaining the rise in Ireland, it's generally a point that this has something to do with the rise in suicide rates in Europe since the 1550s.

Akrasia

mike65 wrote:

You can see the change when people are described as "Suicideologists" imagine such a term 20-30 years back.

Mike.

Emile Durkheim wrote his Book Suicide in 1897 and most modern 'suicidology' is based on his ideas.

The central point he discovered was that Suicide was highest in groups of people suffering alienation.

In terms of Capitalism, we have been 'closer to Boston than Berlin' for 20 years now (at least) and (along with the U.K.) individualist capitalism is eroding society and increasing exclusion and marginalisation.

By pursuing individualism almost as a religion it is inevitable that many people will be lost along the way.

Liam Byrne

SkepticOne wrote:

A pretty moronic way to put things but I think more worrying is his attitude to those who might feel that the economy has been mismanaged.

I think SkepticOne has hit the nail on the head; the media latched on to the wording, whereas it's the content of the speech that should be called into question.

According to Bertie in the speech, we're doing great and suggesting otherwise is the sign that you are pessimistic and depressed, i.e. forget the rising prices, sickening house prices, ****e healthcare, chronic quality of life, crap infrastructure, tribunals, money-wasting and scandals and look at what we have achieved.

While he does have a partial point, in that all success is relative and we are "better off" than before in lots of ways, his arrogant dismissal of those who disagree with him (or even those who point out that there are lots of OTHER things we should focus on in order to improve life overall) is VERY worrying.....he's almost doing a George Bush: "if you don't agree with me 100%, you're wrong/deluded/pessimistic"

The actual truth lies somewhere in between, but implying that people who point that out are mentally ill or so pessimistic that they're probably suicidal is the sign of a complete and utter out of touch arrogant asshole!

Maybe he's planning on getting kicked out before the tribunal kicks in, so that any findings won't reflect on Fianna Failure ?

Prick!

The other worrying aspect is that the media DID focus on the words instead of the content......shows how brain-dead we are getting.....

InFront

A pretty silly thing to say, but his Government's record on mental health, particularly in relation to young men, is worse, and that's what he should be criticised over.
I get the feeling that a reasonable amount of the criticism being directed at him is not coming from genuine injury from the insensitivity of his comment, but cheap political point scoring.
There's no place in politics for cheap point scoring by riding on the back of suicide or grieving families to get one over on the opposition. We should be criticising him on the real issues for the right reasons.

His Government deserved to get the sack over, among other things, their complete failure on mental health, a national emergency. A stupid comment in an insignificant speech to the ICTU that means approximately nothing is a far lesser and less serious charge.

galwayrush

MooseJam wrote:

Bertie is fantastic, the economy is in great shape, anyone disagreeing is just sour grapes because Bertie is still in charge - ie Fine Gael supporters, seriously lads get over it, you will have another opportunity in five or six years

What Planet are you living on? The success of the economy has been on the back of the building boom, which is starting to slow down big time.Thousands of jobs are on the line, Health service is a joke, I have a very ill wife, but we can't get health insurance so the choice is, wait 8 months in which time she would be dead or go private. Every budget claws back any concession to the taxpayer with stealth taxes.Our roads are a discrace, the new Motorways are years behind. Every project run by the Goverment comes in late, if at all, and always way over budget.
Bertie knows the good times are over, he has presided over the greatest economic boom the country ever experienced, and his Goverment managed to squander it.

Collie D

galwayrush wrote:

What Planet are you living on? The success of the economy has been on the back of the building boom, which is starting to slow down big time.Thousands of jobs are on the line, Health service is a joke, I have a very ill wife, but we can't get health insurance so the choice is, wait 8 months in which time she would be dead or go private. Every budget claws back any concession to the taxpayer with stealth taxes.Our roads are a discrace, the new Motorways are years behind. Every project run by the Goverment comes in late, if at all, and always way over budget.
Bertie knows the good times are over, he has presided over the greatest economic boom the country ever experienced, and his Goverment managed to squander it.

Your first sentence was exactly what I was gonna write. Anybody who has sick relatives in the public health system will agree with that. But Bertie's a great auld man altogether :rolleyes:

Drax

All blown out of proportional as usual. He meant it as a joke relative to the context of what he was saying. However what an unbelievable choice of words from our very own Bertie 'Dubya' Ahern.

Dacelonid

Drax wrote:

All blown out of proportional as usual. He meant it as a joke relative to the context of that he was saying. However what an unbelievable choice of words from our very own Bertie 'Dubya' Ahern.

I couldn't agree more. To me he had illustrated a point in a great way, ie if all these naysayers are so depressed about the economy how have they not ended it all.
Typical Irish media though to blow the whole thing out of proportion. All the radio shows have people who attempted suicide on them, all the talk is of suicide. Granted it is a big problem, and raising public awareness and the breaking of the taboo around talking about suicide are laudable goals, but why make such a big deal about what Bertie said as a joke. Why not actually have programmes on the TV and Radio about suicide and raise awareness of the problem? Because it is easier to sensentionalise a nothing story than to actually do something useful
Well thats me 0.02c anyway

jmayo

Liam Byrne wrote:

I think SkepticOne has hit the nail on the head; the media latched on to the wording, whereas it's the content of the speech that should be called into question.

According to Bertie in the speech, we're doing great and suggesting otherwise is the sign that you are pessimistic and depressed, i.e. forget the rising prices, sickening house prices, ****e healthcare, chronic quality of life, crap infrastructure, tribunals, money-wasting and scandals and look at what we have achieved.

While he does have a partial point, in that all success is relative and we are "better off" than before in lots of ways, his arrogant dismissal of those who disagree with him (or even those who point out that there are lots of OTHER things we should focus on in order to improve life overall) is VERY worrying.....he's almost doing a George Bush: "if you don't agree with me 100%, you're wrong/deluded/pessimistic"

The actual truth lies somewhere in between, but implying that people who point that out are mentally ill or so pessimistic that they're probably suicidal is the sign of a complete and utter out of touch arrogant asshole!

Yes of course he has to maintain the economy is going great, otherwise how will his government try and convince the gullible masses that they should fork out a load of borrowed money, that will be paying back well into what would be their pension age, for an overpriced badly built box in the ars*hole of nowhere, with no amenities close to hand.
How would his building buddies fare if we didn't keep them in the style they are now accustomed.

According to bertie and his cronies, anybody that doesn't agree that our economy will head south farily soon should end it all.
Yes that really shows a great level of intelligence and also illustrates how those in power and building trade view anyone that doesn't keep their gravy train on the tracks.

I think his choice of words were as usual ill conceived just like most of his plans. What really pis**s me off is his supposed explanation and apology to those affected by suicide, that he later gave to reporters.

He smirked and laughed his way through it.
It just displayed his contempt and arrogance for people.

Villain

Bertie's comment was stupid and insulting but he has aploligised for it even if badly, so its not much of an issue really, its interesting to see how many people are interested in the topic though compared to the number who were interested in the topic about the tribunal and how Bertie (IMO) lied to the nation before the election.

You know I think FG might look back on the past election and think they were lucky not to win it because people are starting to talk about a crash in the ecomony and thats all its takes in a small nation like ours to actually get a crash i.e. people stop buying houses and stop spending money and FF will be the party that were in power when it happened.

jmayo

irish1 wrote:

...
You know I think FG might look back on the past election and think they were lucky not to win it because people are starting to talk about a crash in the ecomony and thats all its takes in a small nation like ours to actually get a crash i.e. people stop buying houses and stop spending money and FF will be the party that were in power when it happened.

FF will also be the party that drove us into the recession.

Some people have been talking about how the construction industry was allowed take over the economy for the last five years. Some people have also been complaining about house prices and quality of houses, lack of planning etc.
Lots of people did not care since they were doing alright, property was rising and everything was hunky dory with low interest rates.
There are still some of those people around, sure property will never crash, our bubble is different.
You find them on every forum, some are in the building industry, some work for estate agents, some work for banks. Some just do not want to believe they will be staring at negative equity, be stuck in their shack for many years to come, in some commutter town. Worse still they may lose that shack and possibly have to emmigrate like their ancestors before them.

There are a couple of things that have made more people cop on to what a great econmomy we have and how it is overhyped.
The biggest thing is the increasing interest rates. It means that the huge mortgages are begining to hurt, that new builds are not selling and that some of the eejits that bought property for investment are seeing that not alone won't the rents cover the mortgage but that they will not get the promised capital appreciation.
Another thing is we are heamoraging jobs in non-construction, retail and public sector areas.
This last point is something someone from Carlow should only know too well about.

The line that "we will talk ourselves into a depression/recessionor crash" is pure cra*.
Outside forces will cause the economy to contract and lead to collapse, we ourselves in our panic may decide how fast this happens.

Villain

I agree 100% jmayo I wasn't trying to say we alone by simply talking will cause a crash, my point was if things continue to slow down and people start to panic and stop spending any disposal income or taking out huge loans we will make the slow down and eventually the crash much worse.

As you say being from Carlow I am only too well aware of the job losses and we actually are starting to see job losses in construction now too, developers have a huge amount of land with planning permission around carlow that is either for sale becasue the developers want to make some money rather than take the risk of building and not getting a return or they are just sitting on the land waiting to see what will happen.

Carlow has seen a very large influx of people from surrounding areas due the house prices been much lower than those towns closer to Dublin, but Carlow prices have caught up now and the sale of houses has slowed down and I know 2 Civil Engineer's that have been let off sites in the past month.

simu

Akrasia wrote:

Emile Durkheim wrote his Book Suicide in 1897 and most modern 'suicidology' is based on his ideas.

The central point he discovered was that Suicide was highest in groups of people suffering alienation.

In terms of Capitalism, we have been 'closer to Boston than Berlin' for 20 years now (at least) and (along with the U.K.) individualist capitalism is eroding society and increasing exclusion and marginalisation.

By pursuing individualism almost as a religion it is inevitable that many people will be lost along the way.

Looking at the wiki entry for Dukheim's book (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_%28Durkheim%29), it mentions that he had a theory that Catholics had a lower suicide rate than Protestants due to the Catholic concept of suicide as sin and the closer family ties typical of CAtholic countries. Maybe the decline of religion in Ireland is a factor (there must e more than one factor, though)? Although I don't buy the idea that we've swapped Catholicism for consumerism directly - I think Catholicism was damaged more by the actions of the Church itself - although maybe you could say a focus on consuming has replaced religion for some. (Note: I don't trust wiki that much - not sure if that article reflects the ideas of the book well).

However, I wish that people would criticise Bertie for concrete things like any policies or statements of his they disagree with rather than jumping to take offense at his words.

walshb

Jackie laughlin wrote:

Bertie may have talents but speaking isn't one of them.

If ever a truer word was said....

He's laughable at times, but obviously very likeable.
The more he lets himself down, the more the people like him.
It' strange really...

I listened to him. He couldn't even pronounce the 'ing' in the words
cribbing and moaning....."cribbin an moanin"

He's just plain funny

MooseJam

walshb wrote:

If ever a truer word was said....

He's laughable at times, but obviously very likeable.
The more he lets himself down, the more the people like him.
It' strange really...

I listened to him. He couldn't even pronounce the 'ing' in the words
cribbing and moaning....."cribbin an moanin"

He's just plain funny

it's called an accent, I'm sure you have the perfect D4 accent though right :rolleyes:

Dave!

If that's not a reason to hang him, I don't know what is! On a serious note, move along.

fly_agaric

walshb wrote:

I listened to him. He couldn't even pronounce the 'ing' in the words
cribbing and moaning....."cribbin an moanin"

He's just plain funny

I think his Dublin accent comes out a bit stronger in moments of stress/irritation/excitement.

As for Berties bad-taste comment, I suppose the fact that himself/FF generally are cock-a-the-whoop/feeling bulletproof after the election explains it.
Anytime I see/hear an FF minister on the box at the moment the cat that got the cream comes to mind.

Lemming

fly_agaric wrote:

Anytime I see/hear an FF minister on the box at the moment the cat that got the cream comes to mind.

Someone should have told them the cream's nearing its expiry date and set to sour quickly ...

walshb

MooseJam wrote:

it's called an accent, I'm sure you have the perfect D4 accent though right :rolleyes:

Accent my ar**....it's called executing proper diction!!!

Well I'm a DUB and I too have an accent. However I do speak a little clearer and do try to pronounce words properly. He is after all the head of our state.
Can we not expect a little better. He's not some DUB football yob, he's the Taoiseach. As one poster said, when he's rattled and excited, he always lets himself down.

As for D4, sure most of the time folk from there are so preoccupied with speaking properly, that they actually try too hard and end up speaking improperly....It's a funny old world!!!