Grounds tips?

__Black_Tiger__

Hello fo*****s, this is my first post.

I've been doing martial arts for a few years but recently discovered I have one horrible flaw that I'm not entirely sure how to address quickly.

I spar some of my friends and usually I win. However, I am well more or less horrible at ground-fighting and grappling compared to take-down defence and fighting upright.

I know I could enrol in jujuitsu classes and all but I'm not a fan of grappling. Any ideas on any easy moves? Usually, I am put into a rear-naked choke and have problems getting out of it. Any ideas?:(

Subbway

Unfortunately it's impossible to learn grappling just by tips. It's done by drilling and free rolling. If the other guy is better grappler there is no tips that could save you pretty much. There is no fast ways. If good grappler has put down time 3-4 times a week for year, two or more wouldn't it be bit wierd if few tips could save you?

And is there winners in sparring?

arybvtcw0eolkf

I also don't think your going to learn too many tips here which you can put into your game.

If you don't want to get into Jiu Jitsu because its complicated or takes time to learn I'd recommend trying a Judo class in that case.

Although both styles are opposite sides of the same coin, Judo is broken down into less techniques and will give you a good basis for your ground game

Of course, not all Judo clubs concentrate alot of their time on ground fighting but if you ask you'll find most guys there are only too willing o teach you.

Of course most of the guys here on this forum are learning Brazillian JJ with a great deal of success and they can point you to your nearest club if the interest takes you.

Btw, I can understand where your coming from.

My background is kickboxing, and I thought I had it all. That was until a mate I was working with pestered me into going to a Judo class with him. I couldn't believe how limited my grappling skills were and was hooked straight away.

Best of luck with whatever you decide.

Clank

__Black_Tiger__ wrote:

I know I could enrol in jujuitsu classes and all but I'm not a fan of grappling. Any ideas on any easy moves? Usually, I am put into a rear-naked choke and have problems getting out of it. Any ideas?:(

Dont get into a rnc in the first place.

HammerHeadGym

Subbway wrote:

And is there winners in sparring?

Yes, the one who hits most often is the winner.

David Jones

However, I am well more or less horrible at ground-fighting and grappling compared to take-down defence and fighting upright.

I know I could enrol in jujuitsu classes and all but I'm not a fan of grappling. Any ideas on any easy moves?

So you want to be better at grappling without actually having to practice it?

Are you serious? :rolleyes:

dlofnep

If you're not willing to train, don't bother.

waterford mma

hit the weights, then if he takes you down you can just bench press him off you

Valmont

waterford mma wrote:

hit the weights, then if he takes you down you can just bench press him off you

ha:D

Gorman

"I spar some of my friends and usually I win"

Have you tried some eye strikes against your friends, that'll teach em.

David Jones

David Jones wrote:

So you want to be better at grappling without actually having to practice it?

Are you serious? :rolleyes:

Pretty much what I was gonna say.



IF u are too lazy to go and spend 6-12 months learning basic sub defence then I suggest u develop some sick takedown defence. Judo and wrestling classes. But trust me, u can have awesome takedown defence and you're still gonne be on your back sooner or later.


Go and learn Jiu Jitsu. Do it even once a week.

crazy monkey

Hello

If you are unwilling to train in grappling you will never develop a good grappling/anti-grappling game so you have only two realistic options.

Wins by KO or else quit fighting.

It's blunt, it's obvious and it's the truth...

Best of luck.

droc

The guys are right, you need to learn grappling. You can learn a good bit by sparring with your friends, and even by checking out techniques on instructional DVD's, in magazines and on the net, but that will only take you so far.

Some of the more important things to think about are...

Top position: it's easier to spoil and to not get caught when you have top position and when there's strikes involved you're always better to have top position.

Balance: make sure you have a good base and you keep your bodyweight grounded as much as possible to avoid getting turned over.

Elbows in: Keep your elbows close to your body to avoid your opponent isolating your arms. If someone isolates a limb they've a fairly good chance of submitting you.

Chin down: Even if someone takes your back you can defend the rear naked choke, the first thing is to keep your chin down to stop him getting the choke in. Afterwards you need to get rid of at least one of his hooks and turn to face him but that's a bit hard to explain in text.

Hope this helps, good luck

DROC

Marathon Man

I've found this site to be useful:

http://www.lockflow.com/

But looking at how techniques are done can only take one so far. You need to take up some jiu jitsu or judo to become properly proficient.

Pride Fighter

I have a tip for you to use against grapplers, grab the persons balls and squeeze til they give up:)

robric

I look at it two ways....

first for self defence in unavoidable "live" situations, almost every fight ends up on the ground, if you know what to do there you will be in control

second for sport/fitness/competition you can compete/train/roll in bjj and not have your face lumpy the next day and its savage workout that gives a very functional body

Its just another aspect of MA, and if you havent tried it you have nothing to loose, you see peoples in classes one week and never again, they tried it but it wasnt for them, give if a few classes I find it unreal how in a short time the basics make such a difference

robric

Pride Fighter wrote:

I have a tip for you to use against grapplers, grab the persons balls and squeeze til they give up:)

and if your rolling with a woman........

Clive

Grab her by the flaps and twist, I'd imagine.

robric

__Black_Tiger__ wrote:

...... Usually, I am put into a rear-naked choke and have problems getting out of it. Any ideas?:(

heres and idea.......... dont get into it, but if you avoid giving a grappler your back he wont get the choke on you, but he will get you with something else, for sure.

robric

robric wrote:

heres and idea.......... dont get into it, but if you avoid giving a grappler your back he wont get the choke on you, but he will get you with something else, for sure.

Normally inexperienced grapplers do it when they get mount and pounded.........thats why he needs to learn it

HammerHeadGym

robric wrote:

...almost every fight ends up on the ground...

No it doesn't. This is absolute garbage. I have had hundreds of 'real', 'live' 'street fights', in over a decade on the door and less than half a dozen ended up on the ground.

waterford mma

Clive wrote:

Grab her by the flaps and twist, I'd imagine.

bwhahahaha

arybvtcw0eolkf

HammerHeadGym wrote:

No it doesn't. This is absolute garbage. I have had hundreds of 'real', 'live' 'street fights', in over a decade on the door and less than half a dozen ended up on the ground.

Thank god at least someone else said that.

Its BS when people say "nearly all fights end up on the ground".

In my experience the closest you come to going to the ground is to clinch, and which stage both people are usually pulled apart.

For me, the average person can easily be turned and choked in the clinch without going to the ground.

cowzerp

HammerHeadGym wrote:

No it doesn't. This is absolute garbage. I have had hundreds of 'real', 'live' 'street fights', in over a decade on the door and less than half a dozen ended up on the ground.

It does in gracie land-there mad into there crappy propaganda that all street fights go to ground-yeah obviously when the fighters are trained ground fighters but not when its just lads having a fight, stand up all the way unless someone gets put down..

Subbway

Yeah. It stays standing if neither wants to bring it down. Because your average person got some basic idea how to throw a punch but not much idea on what to do on the ground. Well other than squeeze head... and then squeeze it some more. And the other guy is trying to get standing then.

I have seen people gotten taken down hard on concrete on "street fights". But the other guy fighting was really good greco-roman wrestler. So i guess the correct way on this myth would be "90% of fights go to ground if either guys is experienced grappler "

waterford mma

why bother learning groundfighting, there's too many broken bottles, razors, used needles and boards with nails in them on the ground. or so i heard. yawn

cowzerp

waterford mma wrote:

why bother learning groundfighting, there's too many broken bottles, razors, used needles and boards with nails in them on the ground. or so i heard. yawn

imagine trying a takedown on concrete-you'd injure your knees worse than an opponent could hurt you, the ground fighting is great to know if it goes to ground but should not be used as a tactic as its too dangerous in loads of ways-the biggest been kicked and stomped by other people and been stuck on the ground..in a 1 on 1 ground fighting gives me an advantage but not if its gangs involved-also a good solid punch will end most street fights anyway..

dunkamania

I have seen alot less incidents than other contributors,but I think many fights do go to the ground.
Ignoring all incidents that I have seen that were shoving matches broken up by friends in seconds etc,any fight I have seen were two people who were seriously trying to hurt each other and werent interupted,has ended up on the ground.

Subbway

cowzerp wrote:

imagine trying a takedown on concrete-you'd injure your knees worse than an opponent could hurt you.

Well on concrete shootbased takedown is no good ofc but good grecoroman or judo throw you don't injure anything and throws from clinch to concrete really HURT. Like i said seen really good greco roman guy really hurt people with high elevation head and arm throw where he slammed guy from really high to concrete.

droc

cowzerp wrote:

imagine trying a takedown on concrete-you'd injure your knees worse than an opponent could hurt you,

Bwahahaaahhaahaaaa, cuz shooting is the only way to take someone down and you have to do a knee tap to shoot properly.... of course!

the ground fighting is great to know if it goes to ground but should not be used as a tactic as its too dangerous in loads of ways-the biggest been kicked and stomped by other people and been stuck on the ground..

If you're stupid enough to get in a street fight with a guy who has friends with him while you're on your own, you deserve to get penalty kicked in the dome.

in a 1 on 1 ground fighting gives me an advantage but not if its gangs involved-also a good solid punch will end most street fights anyway..

And what if the solid punch doesn't end the street fight? Or if the other guy knows how to throw a solid punch aswell (which is much more common than him knowing how to ground fight).
Ground fighting can give lots of advantages in street fights, whether it be the element of surprise, the possibility of ending a fight definitively without damaging the guy, therefore less risk of jail time.
You can use ground fighting against multiple people if you have a bit of intelligence.
JK told me about taking a guy down, taking his back, sinking in the choke and telling his friends that if they didn't back off he'd choke him unconscious or bite his ear off.
I heelhooked a guy in a street fight and when he started screaming all of his friends backed off with shocked looks on his face, I'm not as nice as John.

DROC

cowzerp

Droc stop talking dung, next time your in a street fight use your ground game and i'll use my stand up game-you will get bashed and learn the hard way..
i've a couple of gracie propaganda dvd's you would love! 1 simple question-have you ever used bjj in a street fight? im aware that you can take someone down by judo throws or greco roman takedowns but you also have to take a few smacks to get into this position, also fight almost always happen outside pubs where there will be gangs of lads and even though you can fight 3-4 opponents on the ground! you'll get stomped-and if you where choking my mate and told me to back off or else-i would hospitilise you before your choke done anything. life is cruel droc and not like the movies or like in the gracie dvd's.oh and if 1 solid punch did not work then the 50 that follow will hopefully work and if necessary ground fighting will be used-i actually doubt you where ever in a street fight.

Yo lads keep the striking vs grappling sh1t down will ya!!! THis isnt a streetfightin forum!!


In 1 on 1 competition u have to have both. Look at the first UFCs, the strikers did sweet **** all. If u dont know how to defend a takedown then a guy can shoot from way outside and he doesnt have to eat a few to land a double leg takedown.


On the flipside look at modern UFC. Strikers now know how to defend (those who trained it do should I say, if u havent trained it then go back to my first point) takedowns and its a whole different ballgame

cowzerp

Neill i agree but street fights are rarely 1 on 1 in the real world-i respect bjj-thats why i train for it.

cowzerp

cowzerp wrote:

Neill i agree but street fights are rarely 1 on 1 in the real world-i respect bjj-thats why i train for it.

I completely agree. But imo streetfights are for insecure dip****s who need a gang of mates cos theyre too scared to go it alone one on one. I view MA as a sport thats why I get antsy when streetfighting comes up!

droc

cowzerp wrote:

Droc stop talking dung, next time your in a street fight use your ground game and i'll use my stand up game-you will get bashed and learn the hard way..

Been there done that, but don't imagine for a moment I used only my ground game.

i've a couple of gracie propaganda dvd's you would love!

Look at you jumping to conclusions, where did I say that ground fighting was the only way? I didn't I just said that it was nonsense that ground fighting is useless in a street fight.

1 simple question-have you ever used bjj in a street fight?

Yup, I used it when I got sucker punched by two people and ended up on my arse, while they were stomping on me I took one down with an ankle pick, mounted and started punching the **** out of him while my mate fought the other one.

im aware that you can take someone down by judo throws or greco roman takedowns but you also have to take a few smacks to get into this position,

Are you trying to suggest that you can stand and trade with someone without taking any punches? The guys you fight must be really crap!

also fight almost always happen outside pubs where there will be gangs of lads

And in pubs, down alleys, walking down O Connell street, they happen everywhere.

and even though you can fight 3-4 opponents on the ground! you'll get stomped

You can, but it's ill advised

-and if you where choking my mate and told me to back off or else-i would hospitilise you before your choke done anything.

How would you do that? It only takes a few seconds from someone to go unconscious from a sunk in choke

life is cruel droc and not like the movies or like in the gracie dvd's.

There you go making assumptions about me again, I find the Gracie DVD's hilarious

oh and if 1 solid punch did not work then the 50 that follow will hopefully work

What would the guy you're fighting be doing at the time? Standing watching you punch him?

What about all of his friends who'd be stomping you if you're on the ground? If you're standing do they just stand back and watch?

and if necessary ground fighting will be used

Something we can agree on.

[/QUOTE]
-i actually doubt you where ever in a street fight.[/QUOTE]

Doubt whatever you want, I grew up in Finglas, I drank in town, I lived for 6 years in a part of Paris where I was the only white person.

I also have a brother who happens to have a big mouth and be a bit stupid when he was drunk. I have'nt gotten in many fights these last few years, but the last one ended with a few broken noses and a lot of blood... I was fine, thanks.

DROC

I know i said streetfighting is for twats, and well i think it is but i got in a fight in Asia last year believe it or not with another Irish guy, threatened to hit me with a brick, u cant exactly lie down either when these things happen....anyway I shot in for a single leg takedown, slammed him on his back and roughed him up with some elbows and punches before i got up and cool as a cucumber walked away!!

cowzerp

droc wrote:

Are you trying to suggest that you can stand and trade with someone without taking any punches? The guys you fight must be really crap!
DROC

YES-especially if there untrained and or drunk as most fella's who start street fights are. and twice i've been attacked by a gang and both times the only hit i got was the 1st 1 and cant say the same for the gangs. im not trying to sound tough but most street fighters throw really bad easy to avoid punches and are easier to hit than punch bags, ps. i also agree that street fighting is for idiots unless its defending yourself or yours.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I'll bleed'n batter yiz all if yiz don't cut de crap.

GufuuByThePound

When it comes down to it, whether fighting 1 on 1 or for self-defence in the street, you need to know both how to fight and defend standing and on the ground.

When fighting 1 vs 1 with rules (i.e. UFC), if you have good takedown defence you may be able to deal enough hard hits to get out of the possible takedown and then deal a few more just for a nice knockout.

However, as many previous posts said, in the street it is unrealistic for it to be a 1 vs 1 fight unless it's in a tussel with a drunk or fight with your friend, it may end up on the ground or it may not.

In the street when it's several vs 1, then it doesn't matter if it goes to the ground or not since you'd be taking many hits either way. If it goes on the ground, even if you are a very good grappler, it's unlikely you'd get out of it.

From reading the various posts, most people agree street fights go to the ground or in some clinch that may or may not go to the ground. It only goes to the ground when someone wants it to go to the ground.

What does all this talk mean?

It means that to answer your question __Black_Tiger__, from how you wrote it, yes you should learn grappling. Is there any easy way to learn it? Sure there is. You can learn only 1 technique, say full nelson choke. Will it help you? Probably not. Not only do you need to learn the chokes, but you need to practice over and over. I've been doing martial arts for over 10 years and it doesn't get easier when you just started to doing it for 50 years.

Now, taking into consideration the fact that you want a short-cut there's an easy way. So easy, you can do it here and now:
Google various choke diagrams and I guaruntee in less than 10 minutes you'll know in theory how to do several grappling moves. Learning to apply it however, either by Judo, JJ or BJJ is a whole different story.

Some tips on not getting on your back in a 1 vs 1 fight with rules:
I) Don't go about and strike carelessly. It's a very easy way for an arm, leg or some other body part (or gi if you're wearing it) to be grabbed and on the ground you go.
II) Understand that a grappler can and will try another technqiue if you escape one. Grapplers don't simply say "Oh bollocks he got away" and let you up.
III) Grapplers (good ones at least) can submit not only from top mounts but also from bottom mounts. Getting the top mount of a grappler allows a good way for some strikes to the head but also presents risks of arm-bars and possibly triangle chokes if you're not careful.

My tip:
- LEARN GROUNDWORK. Here are 3 popular martial arts that incorporate ground work:

Judo, a Japanese martial art from Jujutsu does have some techniques removed but has excellent throws, chokes, etc...
Jujutsu, also a Japanese martial art is much older than Judo and is a martial art mainly for ground-defence or attack.
Brazillian Jujutsu (BJJ) is a must-have in MMA. It addresses close combat toe-to-toe as well as ground work. It has some long combat but mainly close.

What To Learn In Your Case?

any of them

What Most Learn

any of them or more

Since peope are on the topic of street fighting theres a crazy story on youtube, where Urijah Faber (WEC Bantamweight Champ and future UFC BW div fighter) talks about a crazy fight he got in with locals in Bali. Easy to find on youtube.

dunkamania

GufuuByThePound wrote:

III) Grapplers (good ones at least) can submit not only from top mounts but also from bottom mounts. Getting the top mount of a grappler allows a good way for some strikes to the head but also presents risks of arm-bars and possibly triangle chokes if you're not careful.

I think you are a little confused here.......;)

robric

Deleted User wrote:

Since peope are on the topic of street fighting theres a crazy story on youtube, where Urijah Faber (WEC Bantamweight Champ and future UFC BW div fighter) talks about a crazy fight he got in with locals in Bali. Easy to find on youtube.

yea just watched it, typical stupid yank getting into fight that he could have avoided, dont they all know that most of the world hates them for one reason or another

droc

dunkamania wrote:

I think you are a little confused here.......;)

Only in the language/terminology, what he's saying is true.

DROC

dlofnep

robric wrote:

yea just watched it, typical stupid yank getting into fight that he could have avoided, dont they all know that most of the world hates them for one reason or another

easy on the prejudice there..

robric

robric wrote:

yea just watched it, typical stupid yank getting into fight that he could have avoided, dont they all know that most of the world hates them for one reason or another

Hmmmmmm Im sure we've all been in fights that we could have avoided one way or another.


What I wanna know is why in the world a Balinese would start a fight with a pro fighter!! Im sure he hadnt a clue who he was. Plus he got blindsided afterwards. Think ur bein a bit hard here

robric

Deleted User wrote:

Hmmmmmm Im sure we've all been in fights that we could have avoided one way or another.


What I wanna know is why in the world a Balinese would start a fight with a pro fighter!! Im sure he hadnt a clue who he was. Plus he got blindsided afterwards. Think ur bein a bit hard here

he made no effort to walk away from the fight, hes in a foreign country with people he knows nothing about, culture traditions and local gangs that he hasnt a clue about and he still goes head on into it.

what would you say if a yank picked a fight with a traveller and got a hiding from 9 of them, tough ****, you should have known

robric

Deleted User wrote:

Hmmmmmm Im sure we've all been in fights that we could have avoided one way or another.


What I wanna know is why in the world a Balinese would start a fight with a pro fighter!! Im sure he hadnt a clue who he was. Plus he got blindsided afterwards. Think ur bein a bit hard here

he made no effort to walk away from the fight, hes in a foreign country with people he knows nothing about, culture traditions and local gangs that he hasnt a clue about and he still goes head on into it.

what would you say if a yank picked a fight with a traveller and got a hiding from 9 of them, tough ****, you should have known

vasch_ro

Deleted User wrote:

Hmmmmmm Im sure we've all been in fights that we could have avoided one way or another.


What I wanna know is why in the world a Balinese would start a fight with a pro fighter!! Im sure he hadnt a clue who he was. Plus he got blindsided afterwards. Think ur bein a bit hard here

I believe you gave an example of one fight that you could have avoided yourself !!!;)