Legal Costs. Am I been stitched

ArthurJ

I have just had a claim settled under the PIAB scheme. I was awarded €13,000 plus €1,000 expenses.

My solicitor is demanding a fee of €3,100 in total.

I’ve had two meetings with him. The initial one lasted about fifteen minutes and the second, to discuss an offer, about five. He has written to me on nine occasions.
There were no courts or meetings with other parties involved.

The charges seem excessive to me. Anyone got rough guidelines as to what the cost should be.

mikemac

Was the €1,000 expenses set aside to cover legal fees or is that for something else?

Besides, I thought you didn't need a solicitor for a PIAB case and going by your meetings, maybe you didn't need to employ the solicitor in the first place.

Iago

it cost me 1200 for one meeting, 30 minutes discussion and two letters regarding an employment issue...licence to print money!!

dats_right

OP, you say that your solicitor is charging you €3,100 "in total", so you presumably mean including Vat and Outlay. So the total figure is somewhat misleading as the solicitor obviously does not receive the Vat or Outlay(i.e. Medical reports, etc.), so perhaps you could tell us what the actual Professional fee charged is? My guess is that the actual fee received by the solicitor is considerably less than the amount you state.

Secondly, what would you prefer, pointless meetings with your solicitor for PR purposes costing you money or a solicitor who behind the scenes gets on with the job in hand? (evidently keeping you regularly updated by virtue of the 9 letters he sent you). I can assure you that if he sent you nine letters then there were multiples of that amount sent out [and received]on your behalf. All of which takes time and consideration.

Finally, it is very hard to give any reasonable estimate of fees in the absence of knowing exactly the complexity of the matter and the work involved, but, if I were really pushed, I would have thought that a Professional fee in the region of €1,500-€2,000 + VAT (at 21%) + OUTLAY would be sort of ball park.

ArthurJ

dats_right wrote:

OP, you say that your solicitor is charging you €3,100 "in total", so you presumably mean including Vat and Outlay. So the total figure is somewhat misleading as the solicitor obviously does not receive the Vat or Outlay(i.e. Medical reports, etc.), so perhaps you could tell us what the actual Professional fee charged is? My guess is that the actual fee received by the solicitor is considerably less than the amount you state.

Secondly, what would you prefer, pointless meetings with your solicitor for PR purposes costing you money or a solicitor who behind the scenes gets on with the job in hand? (evidently keeping you regularly updated by virtue of the 9 letters he sent you). I can assure you that if he sent you nine letters then there were multiples of that amount sent out [and received]on your behalf. All of which takes time and consideration.

Finally, it is very hard to give any reasonable estimate of fees in the absence of knowing exactly the complexity of the matter and the work involved, but, if I were really pushed, I would have thought that a Professional fee in the region of €1,500-€2,000 + VAT (at 21%) + OUTLAY would be sort of ball park.

Firstly, I'm not a solicitor so I would not try to mislead anyone. Secondly, I do understand how the VAT system works.

The sum of €31000 is the vat inclusive Professional fee. There was no outlay of any kind on his part.

Your upper limit of €2420 inc. VAT, for Professional fees, confirms what I'm thinking.

Hobart

ArthurJ wrote:

Firstly, I'm not a solicitor so I would not try to mislead anyone. Secondly, I do understand how the VAT system works.

The sum of €31000 is the vat inclusive Professional fee. There was no outlay of any kind on his part.

Your upper limit of €2420 inc. VAT, for Professional fees, confirms what I'm thinking.

My non-legal advice is this:


Firstly you should (will) get an invoice from your solicitor. Multiply the bottom line by 1.21 and that will negate the vat. Vat should be specifically listed on the invoice at a 21% rate.

Secondly dats_right seems to assume that your action involved "Medical Reports etc..." this may not have been the case (the use of the plural in "Reports" may have been erroneous).

Every outlay should be itemised on your final bill/invoice. If you have a dispute with your solicitor wrt the charges, bring it up with him. Nine times out of ten they will be resolved on the spot.

If you are still unhappy with the charges being levied, contact the Law Society for advice.

As an aside micmclo the PIAB does not preclude the need for legal advice or the use of a solicitor.

templetonpeck

ArthurJ wrote:

I have just had a claim settled under the PIAB scheme. I was awarded €13,000 plus €1,000 expenses.

My solicitor is demanding a fee of €3,100 in total.

I’ve had two meetings with him. The initial one lasted about fifteen minutes and the second, to discuss an offer, about five. He has written to me on nine occasions.
There were no courts or meetings with other parties involved.

The charges seem excessive to me. Anyone got rough guidelines as to what the cost should be.

You need to get a break down from your solicitor of what costs were involved and find out exactly what his fee is. I would imagine it's not as high as you think. As some one else said to make a PIAB claim, you need at least one medical report, which are expensive.

Your solicitor should have written to you at the beginning of your case detailing the costs and his fee, if he did this, you should not be surprised by the final invoice.

Finally, there is a lot of background work that your solicitor does on your behalf before presenting a case to PIAB, even if you don't see it or don't hear from him. You say your case settled, which means it didn't go to a full PIAB hearing, but your solicitor negotiated a settlement for you. This again would have been a round of behind the scenes work that he would have done for you that you may not have been aware of.

Apologies in advance for assuming your solicitor is male! It was just easier to post that way!

PeakOutput

i didnt read the entire thread but i used to work in claims and if i remember correctly the piab scheme was set up with the purpose of stopping the solicitors making huge if any money from personal injuries. i know in our claims department if something went to piab we would be very reluctant to pay solicitor fees on top of it

my point is he may be charging you his standard rate(i honestl dont know) but piab have awarded what they think he should be charging you for the amount of work a solicitor has to do for a piab case which is not alot

ArthurJ

Thank's for the input lads'/ladette's

I paid for my own medical reports and treatment.

A friend of mine summed it up for me today like this " count yourself lucky, look what they did to the abuse victims and how many were arrested"

So with that in mind I'll move on.

dats_right

OP, it is unusual that a claimant would pay for his own medical reports up-front usually a solicitor will pay for these and then seek re-imbursement on the succesful conclusion of your case. But even in the event that there was no medical outlay, maybe there was Counsel's Opinion (i.e. a specailist barrister) sought and obtained? As might often be the case if the solicitor is in any doubt regarding certain issues e.g such as liability or maybe joining third parties. But it is possible that you also had to pay for Counsel's Opinion.

I have to say that it is most unusual that a case would have absolutely no outlay whatsoever. You don't appear to have received a VAT Invoice yet, so it's hard to be sure. But if that is indeed the position, then the professional fee would have to be in the region of €2,600.00. Which is above my rough 'ball-park' figure, but could well be explained by many factors that might have been present in your case. Examples might include, increased work, complexity of the matters (what seems straightforward to the layman isn't always as straightforward to the experienced, professional lawyer).

What ever the case maybe, I would certainly advise you to open your mouth and seek and explanation from your solicitor regarding his fees. You are well within your rights to negotiate regarding the fees charged, your solicitor might as a gesture of goodwill or in an effort to keep you happy and hopefully win any repeat business agree to a lower fee.

Finally, what utter nonesense your friend talks about solicitors and residential abuse victims. Firstly, no solicitors were arrested and secondly only a very small percentage of firms or individual solicitors actually overcharged their clients. Before everybody jumps on my case here, I like the law society condemn those who deliberately overcharged their clients and in particular, I would be fully behind the disciplinary action taken against those small number of solicitors involved in this scandal. But let's not run away with ourselves here, we are literally talking about a handful of solicitors out of a profession of about 7,000. In common with all professions, trades and jobs there will inevitably be a few bad apples but it is wholly unfair to tar all solicitors with the same brush. So OP, use the mouth you were born with and hold your solicitor to account over his fees rather than moaning about them on this site.

ArthurJ

dats_right wrote:

Firstly, no solicitors were arrested...

Thats the point:D

dats_right wrote:

..actually overcharged their clients..

I see where I went wrong, I thought they stole from their clients. Damn it's hard being a layman.

dats_right wrote:

So OP, use the mouth you were born with ...

Thats why I hired him. He's a professional mouthpiece.

dats_right wrote:

rather than moaning about them on this site.

It's called democracy and it's here to stay. So learn to deal with it.:p

MrPudding

dats_right wrote:

OP, it is unusual that a claimant would pay for his own medical reports up-front usually a solicitor will pay for these and then seek re-imbursement on the succesful conclusion of your case.

I was also under the impressio that PIAB was supposed to do away withthe need for solicitors.

My GF was involved in an incident and tried to go the PIAB route. She did not contact a solicitor and her own GP and PIAB themselves advised on medical reports and such. We paid for these ourselves and informed PIAB of the costs and provided receipts.

It was looking good until the person the GF was looking for money off was advised by his solicitor not to use PIAB. I wonder why that was? Ideas on a postcard.

MrP

dats_right

OP, fair enough you hired your solicitor to represent your best interests and you haven't said that you are unhappy with his work just his fee. So really it boils down to the simple fact, that moaning on this site will do nothing whatsoever to reduce your bill, whilst opening your mouth and discussing it with your solicitor may well result in him lowering his fee.

I don't really want to get embroiled into a debate on the pro's and cons of PIAB. Nonetheless, PIAB is not equipped nor is it empowered to deal with issues of concurrent (i.e. more than one party is negligent) or indeed contributory negligence (i.e. where you are partly responsible for your own injury e.g. not wearing a seatbelt in an RTA), nor can it deal with cases were liability is contested.

So, Mr Pudding my postcard suggestion would be one of the above reasons. Most likely, however is that they don't concede liability (they don't think it's legally their fault) or they feel that your gf was partly the author of her own misfortune (they don't think they should have to pay the full % award as she is % partly to blame for her own injuries) or a mixture of both. If they were of the opinion it was their fault or if they felt that a court would inevitably find against them, you can rest assured they would have definitely agreed to the Assessement by PIAB, as PIAB is loved by Insurance companies and Respondents. I would think that your GF would be well advised to get a solicitor of her own, as she might well have a weaker case than you first thought. And remember there are strict time limits for the institution of proceedings, but if you she does have a sound case, then she has nothing to worry about and her legal costs will be paid by the other side if she is succesful.

johnnyskeleton

MrPudding wrote:

I was also under the impressio that PIAB was supposed to do away withthe need for solicitors.

My GF was involved in an incident and tried to go the PIAB route. She did not contact a solicitor and her own GP and PIAB themselves advised on medical reports and such. We paid for these ourselves and informed PIAB of the costs and provided receipts.

It was looking good until the person the GF was looking for money off was advised by his solicitor not to use PIAB. I wonder why that was? Ideas on a postcard.

MrP

The idea was to stop insurance companies paying claimants fees on top of the payouts. If you use PIAB you must do so either without legal representation or else pay your solicitor's fees out of your award. It was, as far as I recall, a PD initiative, and they are not exactly the champions of the ordinary citizen.

In addition to the complications that dats_right has highlighted, many people feel that PIAB do not award high enough damages and so go to court to get a higher settlement.

OP, if you are really unhappy with your solicitor's costs, after exhausting all the other avenues above, you could seek advice from an independant legal costs accountant (albeit for another fee) or go to the taxing master. The taxing master has the power to reduce the fees, but if the fees are not reduced or not reduced sufficiently (I think it is 1/3 or more) then you pay the cost of taxation.

ArthurJ

johnnyskeleton wrote:

OP, if you are really unhappy with your solicitor's costs, after exhausting all the other avenues above, you could seek advice from an independant legal costs accountant (albeit for another fee) or go to the taxing master. The taxing master has the power to reduce the fees, but if the fees are not reduced or not reduced sufficiently (I think it is 1/3 or more) then you pay the cost of taxation.

Thanks for the input.

The truth is I don’t know if his charges are excessive, it just appears to me that they are.

So rather than going in and “mouthing off” at him without any basis, which would be stupid as well as wrong, I’m attempting to canvass the opinion of board members on the charges.

Personally I don’t tolerate people who shoot their mouths of and I would not expect anyone else to

dats_right

ArthurJ wrote:

Thanks for the input.

So rather than going in and “mouthing off” at him without any basis, which would be stupid as well as wrong, I’m attempting to canvass the opinion of board members on the charges.

Presumably that comment was aimed at me. It's your money and your decision so you can do what you like. But let me be clear, I did not suggest that you 'mouth off' at your solicitor, what I said was:

"opening your mouth and discussing it with your solicitor may well result in him lowering his fee." and

"I would certainly advise you to open your mouth and seek and explanation from your solicitor regarding his fees. You are well within your rights to negotiate regarding the fees charged, your solicitor might as a gesture of goodwill or in an effort to keep you happy and hopefully win any repeat business agree to a lower fee."

My terminology clearly does not equate with the emotive terminology you so eloqountly use. OP, you came on this site looking for advice and that's what I attempted to do. Of course you don't have to listen to me, you are entitled to walk away feeling that you have been "excessively charged" without any explanation from your solicitor, but if it was me I would simply ask him, "can you explain your fees to me, please". I can assure you that, when clients ask me to do this, I never think that it is "stupid or wrong", I just explain the basis of the fee, outlay, etc and sometimes might even reduce the fee:D

I can assure you that all solicitors would prefer a chance to explain themselves, rather than have an unsatisfied client (who will probably tell friends and family as well) and may well bad mouth said solicitor (note not saying OP will do this).

MrPudding

dats_right wrote:

So, Mr Pudding my postcard suggestion would be one of the above reasons. Most likely, however is that they don't concede liability (they don't think it's legally their fault) or they feel that your gf was partly the author of her own misfortune (they don't think they should have to pay the full % award as she is % partly to blame for her own injuries) or a mixture of both. If they were of the opinion it was their fault or if they felt that a court would inevitably find against them, you can rest assured they would have definitely agreed to the Assessement by PIAB, as PIAB is loved by Insurance companies and Respondents. I would think that your GF would be well advised to get a solicitor of her own, as she might well have a weaker case than you first thought. And remember there are strict time limits for the institution of proceedings, but if you she does have a sound case, then she has nothing to worry about and her legal costs will be paid by the other side if she is succesful.

She did go to a solicitor. The solicitor is rather confused as are we. The guy drove into the back of her as she was pulling away from a set of traffic lights. Judging from the damage caused, the final resting places of both cars and the injuries the GF sustained, it appears he was travelling wellin excess of the speed limit.

The gf's solicitor cannot understand what the other guy or the insurance company were thinking when they turned down PIAB. She thinks it is open and shut.

MrP

ArthurJ

dats_right wrote:

Presumably that comment was aimed at me.

Yes it was.

dats_right wrote:

But let me be clear, I did not suggest that you 'mouth off' at your solicitor

You’re clearly trying to back peddle. Just up the page you said:

“use the mouth you were born with and hold your solicitor to account over his fees rather than moaning about them on this site.”

I don’t see “discuss” or “seek an explanation” in there. What I do see is a mixture of arrogance and ignorance.

The use of language like that is unnecessary, inappropriate, offensive and reflects badly on your profession.

dats_right wrote:

Of course you don't have to listen to me,

Trust me, I won't.

johnnyskeleton

ArthurJ wrote:

I’m attempting to canvass the opinion of board members on the charges.

Unfortunately it would be hard for us to give much concrete information without knowing the particulars of the case, and even still there is a lot we wouldn't know.

Although it might not be helpful to you now, you are entitled to a letter from your solicitor at the start and this letter, as templetonpeck points out, should give an estimate of the likely costs of his or her services. You are perfectly entitled to arrange a different price at this stage, but most people don't.

I suppose it is a lot of money in relation to the award you received, but then again you have to remember that engaging a professional will always be expensive. Also, if you had received a higher award, the solicitor might have charged you the same amount (because they would have done the same amount of work).

dats_right

OP, I'm not certainly not trying to back peddle. All my comments are now on public record and people are free to draw their own conclusions from all of my posts. "Discuss" and seek an "explanation" are in my other posts and my posts should be read collectively in order to gain a fair reflection of the central theme of my advice.

OP, I fail to see what the point of your original post was if you aren't going to do anything anyway. Regardless, I think it somewhat unfair and a little unbecoming that you accuse me of arrogance and ignorance. You don't know me and all I have attempted to do on this thread is offer you advice. To be honest, I think such a statement reflects more on you than me.

I'm not going to loose any sleep that you are willing to allow your solicitor charge whatever he wants without asking him to explain or justify his fees, in circumstances where you feel that you have been "excessively" charged. It is your prerogative to pay any amount you like for whatever service you like (and indeed moan about it too- as you put it that's democracy!).

Anyway enough of that. Mr Pudding, if the facts are as clear cut as you state then your gf has absolutely nothing to worry about. In fact, she should be quite happy that the other party has declined PIAB's assessement, as generally speaking the courts award higher damages and she will also have her legal costs covered by the defendant's insurance company(rather than have to pay them herself as would be the case with a PIAB award), so she really has nothing to worry about.

ArthurJ

johnnyskeleton wrote:

Unfortunately it would be hard for us to give much concrete information without knowing the particulars of the case, and even still there is a lot we wouldn't know.

Although it might not be helpful to you now, you are entitled to a letter from your solicitor at the start and this letter, as templetonpeck points out, should give an estimate of the likely costs of his or her services. You are perfectly entitled to arrange a different price at this stage, but most people don't.

I suppose it is a lot of money in relation to the award you received, but then again you have to remember that engaging a professional will always be expensive. Also, if you had received a higher award, the solicitor might have charged you the same amount (because they would have done the same amount of work).

Thanks for the input.

I think I’ll let the matter lie and should a similar matter arise in the future, I will at least have an idea on how to handle it from the outset.

Thanks to all who provided a useful input.

templetonpeck

dats_right wrote:

OP, I'm not certainly not trying to back peddle. All my comments are now on public record and people are free to draw their own conclusions from all of my posts. "Discuss" and seek an "explanation" are in my other posts and my posts should be read collectively in order to gain a fair reflection of the central theme of my advice.

OP, I fail to see what the point of your original post was if you aren't going to do anything anyway. Regardless, I think it somewhat unfair and a little unbecoming that you accuse me of arrogance and ignorance. You don't know me and all I have attempted to do on this thread is offer you advice. To be honest, I think such a statement reflects more on you than me.

I'm not going to loose any sleep that you are willing to allow your solicitor charge whatever he wants without asking him to explain or justify his fees, in circumstances where you feel that you have been "excessively" charged. It is your prerogative to pay any amount you like for whatever service you like (and indeed moan about it too- as you put it that's democracy!).

Anyway enough of that. Mr Pudding, if the facts are as clear cut as you state then your gf has absolutely nothing to worry about. In fact, she should be quite happy that the other party has declined PIAB's assessement, as generally speaking the courts award higher damages and she will also have her legal costs covered by the defendant's insurance company(rather than have to pay them herself as would be the case with a PIAB award), so she really has nothing to worry about.

Dat's, I've read all your posts on here and you're exactly right in everything you've said. I think you've been baited here so someone could have a go at the profession and their costs. I don't believe the OP every had an issue with their solicitor.

You're posts were extremely clear and to the point, despite being goaded at every turn.

Amazotheamazing

Just to echo Templeton's above point, the OP may dislike what Dat's Right is saying, but Dat's Right is absolutely correct in what he (or she) has said.

If you have a problem with a fee, then query it. How do you expect us to draw a conclusion when we've no idea of the complexity of your case? If you want a shoulder to cry on go somewhere else.