[rant] Pricing Policies

Fajitas!

A sore point for a lot of us.

I got a letter from Canon HQ Ireland today, listing out their special offers because of the launch of the new MKIII... All fun and games, decided to look through some of these offers... Holy sh*t!

I'm buying goods cheaper than Canon's special deals, I've saved about... 4,000 since November...at least, it could be plenty more. What's going on? Do they not want people to buy from them in Ireland? I mean, the only potential customers I can see left in Ireland are those clueless to the internet, and professionals getting their taxes back.

Jessops closed down a shedload of shops and 'left go' a rake of staff last week because people just ain't buying from them. And why should they?

I said in a thread recently, I'll support our own, when they support us - And I have no problem buying locally, but not at the prices we're being quoted at the moment (And this isn't just a Canon thread, it's all photographic equipment brands). Simon headed a few letter with this in mind last year to Canon Ireland, they reply saying that all of Europe will even out (In marketing language) and prices in Ireland stay about the same, prices accross Europe just go up.

[/rant]

rymus

ahh Jessops.. they've made my list.

I'd echo your sentiment; I'd gladly buy in Ireland from any supplier if pricing was realistic. We haven't had a quality rant in ages, well done old bean.

helios

I agree... especially about the clueless people part. I was at a certain camera shop this evening at the top of Grafton St. and a woman walked in and bought 1GB Fuji CF card for €54. Crazy considering that's how much I paid for my 4GB high speed card...

rymus

where there's idiots, theres profit to be made.

One could setup a small shop in a busy area just selling overpriced memory cards to idiots. You'd be a millionaire within a year.

TelePaul

It's a weird situation, the same thing is happening with musical instruments. It's much ceaper to buy abroad, and obviously an EU purchase clears customs without any hassle whatsoever.

I suppose the thing to remember is that deals straight from canon are there to target the consumer surplus you mentioned - those cluless to the value available online. Bear in mind that Canon distribute to these suppliers and turn a profit in doing so. The online vendors are also turning a profit, though their mark-up is significantly smaller than places like conns cameras as they don't have the same overheads; premises, fixtures, fittings, retail staff etc.

Let's take a practical example. A Canon EF 50mm 1.8 goes for around €130 in Conns. I bought the same lens, including delivery, off ebay for €86 Buy It Now. The e bay seller HAS to be making mney off this transaction; selling for below cost is both stupid and illegal. Which means he must be getting the lens from a canon distributor for less than €86. Which means that Conns are also getting the lens for < €86. How does one account for the €44 discrepancy? Probably rent on the premises in the middle of Dublin city, Whereas Johnny Ebay sells out of his parents basement.

So why are canon doing what they're doing? Well, they're gonna make profits either way: it's all down to how much profit. Even if every one of their products is purchased through an online vendor, they're still making mney - they've included a suitable mark-up on production costs when they supply to a retailer, most likely calculated through a simple break-even analysis.

If they get lucky, and direct sales from Canon account for a meagre 5% of total sales, they're making a larger profit than if their enitre revenues were accounted for by the likes of B & H, etc. Either way, they're making money.

Another thing worth considering is wehther or not the increased sales volume experienced by online-retailers will compensate for the diminished returns per unit: they charge less to sell more in the hopes that he volume sold will make up for their low prices. If it doesn't, and given the increased competition facing online retailers, they've nothing to fall back on. With regards to musical instruments, certain brick and mortar stores are offering to match online prices. Price wars like this are great for the consumer.

TelePaul

magicbastarder wrote:

the case of canon aside, no high street retailer is going to be able to compete with someone operating from a warehouse on the outskirts of singapore/abu dhabi/etc.
taxes aside, they've probably got cheaper rent and fewer staff to pay.

canon (globally) probably don't care where you buy. canon ireland is probably about as important as a regional sub-office in the UK.

Bingo.

magicbastarder

the case of canon aside, no high street retailer is going to be able to compete with someone operating from a warehouse on the outskirts of singapore/abu dhabi/etc.
taxes aside, they've probably got cheaper rent and fewer staff to pay.

canon (globally) probably don't care where you buy. canon ireland is probably about as important as a regional sub-office in the UK.

Fajitas!

Afaik, Kea photo & UrGalaxy run their own stores in Hong Kong. B&H run their own store two. I can't speak for others though. Still, cheapest prices from those three.

Canon Ireland to Canon HQ back in the homeland probably is, but Canon Ireland is still Canon Ireland to themselves, they still have to pull a profit, which I doubt they are doing. Jessops are going down the sh*tter. (That's an i I astrixed, not a u incase someone thought I was trying some elabourate pun)

Of course Canon are making profits either way, but the shops that sell the products are upping them. Even a walk around Dublin shows that - Hell, a Jessops cleaning kit is cheaper in the Camera Exchange than in Jessops.

magicbastarder

i've mentioned before here how canon deliberately screw over the smaller retailers, by setting up pricing structures depending on order volumes, which can see a larger retailer retailing kit for cheaper than smaller retailers can buy wholesale from canon.

prox

I guess you're all lucky you don't work in camera shops.

deRanged

TelePaul wrote:

Let's take a practical example. A Canon EF 50mm 1.8 goes for around €130 in Conns.

try Cork - 150 in three shops, all within about 100 yards of each other.

certain brick and mortar stores are offering to match online prices.

None of these ones do - I've tried that and just hear that they can't match the prices, and mostly they won't even try.

Price wars like this are great for the consumer.

if only!

I'm happy to pay a certain premium to buy locally but you have to draw the line somewhere.

magicbastarder

TelePaul wrote:

A Canon EF 50mm 1.8 goes for around €130 in Conns. I bought the same lens, including delivery, off ebay for €86 Buy It Now. The e bay seller HAS to be making mney off this transaction; selling for below cost is both stupid and illegal. Which means he must be getting the lens from a canon distributor for less than €86.

not necessarily; see my post above.

Fajitas!

magicbastarder wrote:

i've mentioned before here how canon deliberately screw over the smaller retailers, by setting up pricing structures depending on order volumes, which can see a larger retailer retailing kit for cheaper than smaller retailers can buy wholesale from canon.

But that's the same with all retail, buying in bulk always costs less - That's a given.

Prox, I guess we are all lucky we don't work in camera shops. But I'd have to be getting decent prices to buy from them still. I really don't mind who sells me the product as long as I'm getting value at the end of the day. It was mentioned recently that we won't be able to have an intelligent conversation with the staff in photographic stores if we don't buy locally...I can have the same conversation Via email to Albert in HK just as easy, and have done in the past. And in some cases, I'd prefer to, than talk to some of the staff in Irish stores.

TelePaul

magicbastarder wrote:

not necessarily; see my post above.

Yes, volume-based pricing is as old as the hills...but think of the support costs included.You buy more, you have to store more: floor space, warehouse space, stock rooms etc. You also have to sell more: establish a shop in a prime location with large volumes of through traffic, market your products, hire the staff to deal with the customers etc, pay rent, light, heating, insurance etc.....

It all adds up. TBH I think if Canon did engage in price discrimination in favour of brick and mortar outlets, it'd have more of a pronounced knock on effect.

TelePaul

Fajitas! wrote:

Afaik, Kea photo & UrGalaxy run their own stores in Hong Kong. B&H run their own store two. I can't speak for others though. Still, cheapest prices from those three.

I think in these cases, the supplementary cost of establishing a web based component is trivial by comparison to the turnover these stores make, particularly B & H. That place is always jammed, and given it's size and reputation, some form of mail ordering would be expected: developing this into a fully functional website isn't so much of a competitive advantage as it is a necessity these days.

TelePaul

deRanged wrote:

None of these ones do - I've tried that and just hear that they can't match the prices, and mostly they won't even try.

I was referring to musical instruments, it's the same problem there.

deRanged wrote:

I'm happy to pay a certain premium to buy locally but you have to draw the line somewhere.

Damn right, but we didn't join the E.U just for a load of motorways. The open market exists for a reason, as does the ECB. Long term, the rip-off Ireland might be taken down a notch or two with a fall in inflation or interest rates.

311

Would it be possible for a supplier here ,to supply goods from outside the canon distribution network ??

In other words ,they buy their stuff overseas and sell it on here .With an international guarantee.

TelePaul

_Brian_ wrote:

Would it be possible for a supplier here ,to supply goods from outside the canon distribution network ??

In other words ,they buy their stuff overseas and sell it on here .With an international guarantee.

The canon distirbution network will feature somewhere: canon MAKE the goods. So it's a question of which domestic retailer can charge the lowest and still turn a profit.

magicbastarder

Fajitas! wrote:

I really don't mind who sells me the product as long as I'm getting value at the end of the day.

i do mind. the logical conclusion of the 'buy cheapest, no matter where', results in the situation, that since jobs are commodities as much as cameras, that my (and other) employers would up sticks and move, at least partially, to the far east.

i earn enough and i enjoy photography enough that the couple of hundred euro i probably paid extra for my DSLR (the only piece of camera kit over and above a lightmeter i've ever bought new) i regard as money well spent.

Fajitas!

All well and good that you have a job to get you the DSLR, but I only work full time three months of a year, the rest being taken up with college, and the expenses of having to move back to Dublin for it - considering I've got to budget pretty strictly, and only buy new gear out of jobs I do with photography, price is an issue. Especially when the difference I paid for my new DSLR was about €2000 and not a couple of hundred.

311

I know it's not photography but ,someone posted in the motor forum a picture of a car they just bought in the states.
Subaru impreza WRX ,which is 45K here. They got it for about 18K brand new over there:(

We are paying a high amount ,so that the fat get fatter.

magicbastarder

well, since the greens are talking about abolishing VRT, expect to see car prices fall.

TelePaul

I really wonder when some legislation will be implemented to stop this problem. When imports outnumber exports, it hurts GDP per capita. I read a couple of years back about stricter governance of ebay shop fronts with regards to enforcing income tax, but I don't see it happening. I think the Irish shops will have to get smart real fast and either exercise some price restructuring or offer intangible benefits to their customers. I, like Fajitas, am a student who works his ass off during Summer, and I really need to get as much bang for my buck as possible.

311

Is camera equipment cheap in jersey ?

Danbo!

headed into a popular camera shop in dublin in feb to check the price of the new lumix TZ3.. Was told, hasnt been released, but expect to pay €500 minimum when it is available. checked it on the web, got it for €390 including delivery within 2 days. would have liked to support a brick and mortar shop, but not when its 25% more expensive. its just too much.

(great camera by the way)

Fajitas!

Jersey is a mixed bag Brian, I used to visit there quite a bit, but a lot of places have gone just as expensive as the UK just because they can... Then again, you can be quite lucky. (7dayshop.com)

311

There definetly seems to be something fishy about canons pricing here ,keeping it a speciality market is always good ,but our prices :rolleyes:

prox

It's almost like they want to encourage people to be gear nuts. For some reason.

Fenster

Some of us live in the US and are perfectly happy to ship equipment for a very reasonable commission.

leinsterman

Oh dear ... here we go again!!

AS some of you know I bought my first significant item in Ireland last Friday ... it was more a combination of factors ... I wanted ot give Gunns the business ... the mk III is difficult to get online ... the pre-VAT price is less than B&H ...

I paid €4,200 incl VAT (pre VAT was €3,471) ... I knew at the time of my purchase that B&H has it for €3,550 and €3,650 (depending on how you purchase it) ... I also knew it is available in Switzeerland for less than €3,000 ... so I'm guessing the EBAY price will be in this ball park ...

But ... I am not patient and it could take months for the item be available on EBAY ... also in this case the camera may have a flaw necessitating a recall so this was a factor in buying local ...

I guess it was an emotive decision ...

But I do agree we are being ripped off ... even if you do account for 21% being by the government of Ireland ... this does not account for the rest ... but my experience of running the campaign last year is that most people are prepared to rant about it online and vote about it in polls but they will do f**k all else about their situation ... so you get what you deserve ...

Fionn

i think peeps have done something about the situation - they buy elsewhere or maybe don't bother buying at all.
As regards pricing and rip-offs, i think it's an irish reaction - your sales are dwindling or are low! so pump up the price to off-set your low sales. Haven't the publicans been doing it for ages and have in a lot of places priced themselves out of the market. Some of the Irish shops are so pricy that they either don't have web sites or will not put prices on stuff on the sites!
On another note is buying a Nikon online a bit of a prob as regards warranty and support, thought i read someplace that they're not very good when it comes to supporting stuff bought online.
Because our population is so small - the size of a medium size British city we're never going to have much infulence over policies that Canon or any other corporate entity establish. Like id say it would be like a fly against a windshield if everyone in ireland bought no Canon gear for the next year!! :eek:

PaulieC

on the whole I agree that we do pay too much in this country. The EU prices, in general, are over the odds comapred to East Asia and the US, so you can't really blame it all on RipOff Ireland.

I like buying stuff in shops. I like to be able to walk out of a shop with something under my arm and to go home and play with it immediately. On the other hand, I also like knowing that if I buy stuff online, I can save a packet. You don't get the same 'retail therapy' from buying online, but that's almost replaced by the smug feeling of knowing that you put one over on the greedy shopkeepers here.



There are huge differences in prices in shops here too, though. For example, take the Sigma 24-70 f2.8 EX. I priced this in three shops in Dublin City centre - Conn's, The Camera Centre and Berminghams - all within a mile of each other. Perhaps unsurprisingly, Conn's came in dearest at € 599. The Camera Centre was next at € 580 and then Berminghams at € 499. That's a difference of € 100 between the highest and lowest prices, which I found amazing. Obviously, I then went and bought the lens in B&H as a colleague in work was going to New York for a week. It cost me € 400 over there.

On the other hand, I was happy to spend a couple fo hundred quid in Conn's getting started with a Cokin filter set because I had searched around on the web and I found that the price didn't vary too much.



Oh and one last thing. Fajitas, the beal bocht doesn't really wash with me . I really cannot have any sympathy for 'poor' students, especially ones who have got a 5D and a 24-70 L (and whatever else!) recently. Sorry

Fajitas!

Heh, the Beal bocht. I have to work my arse off for three months to afford rent, food etc etc in Dublin (not to mention everything I need for college), I just so happen to be able to get jobs through photography that let me buy more gear - I work my arse off trying to get jobs in photography too, so I can buy more gear. And at the end of the day, buying new equipment is a nessicary evil of photography. I work for what I have

but my experience of running the campaign last year is that most people are prepared to rant about it online and vote about it in polls but they will do f**k all else about their situation ... so you get what you deserve ...

But even after your campaign, (No offence to the campaign, you tried and did a good job, and I appreciate that) there was not much of a difference, and you continued to buy lenses in HK. I don't know if that 'rant about it online and do f**k all else about the situation' was aimed at me, but yes, I am getting what I deserve, better prices from another country.

leinsterman

Fajitas! wrote:

But even after your campaign, (No offence to the campaign, you tried and did a good job, and I appreciate that) there was not much of a difference, and you continued to buy lenses in HK. I don't know if that 'rant about it online and do f**k all else about the situation' was aimed at me, but yes, I am getting what I deserve, better prices from another country.

Not at all aimed at you mate ... more at the fact that I tried to kick the same campaign off in a few other EU wide fora ... since the problem is wider than just us .... and got no support at all ...

I also wrote to a few of the camera clubs around the country ... and with the exception of the Malahide one ... they all replied with universal silence ... so they really get what they deserve ... this was perhaps the most frustrating thing of all ... I'd be willing to bet the same people are cribbing about this at nearly every meeting ... or heading off the EBAY without thinking about the consequences ...

I don't think everyone going to Hong Kong or USA or EBAY to buy gear ... breaking laws and taking risks ... is in anybodies interest ... especially not us, the end consumers ... but we are forced to do this for a variety of reasons including -

• A lack of foresight on the part of vendors ... in particular Canon Europe/Ireland. I believe at the high end of the amateur market they have set their price at the wrong part of the demand curve.
• VAT rates in Ireland give many other countries a head start on us ... especially non EU
• A very big price differential (not all accounted for in VAT) which makes the risks we take acceptable.
• A collective lack of will to take affirmative action against the local vendor offices ... by this I don't mean we need to burn them to the ground ... but if enough of us wrote and complained they would listen ...

leinsterman

lets bear in mind we do have collective buying power ... and we also have the ability to use this by choosing to purchase outside the EU ... but I don't think Canon etc are getting the message ... and this has to be down to the fact that they are either not listening (in which case someone at Canon needs to be taken out and shot) ... or not being told (in which case we are getting what we deserve) ...

... personally I think it is the latter of these two items ...

However in case it isn't the people who need to know are

Jonathon Sultan and Philip Brady
Canon Ireland
Arena Road
Sandyford Ind Est
Dublin 18

... over to the rest you ...

what you gonna do now ?

... how you gonna get others involved ...

lets see if 10 of us write a letter to these two gentlemen ... and get 10 more people to write one ... and they get 10 more ... and they ... well ... you get the idea ... its called a chain letter ... but in this one you lose nothing except the price of some paper, an envelop and a stamp ...

Fajitas!

I'll have no problem writing a letter to the above.

magicbastarder

just don't buy canon. simple.

Fajitas!

But the problem dosn't solely lie in Canon, every company is as bad, Nikon to Sigma to Olympus!

It just so happens that a lot of us here are Canon users, just like I'm sure other forums have a majority of Nikon users.

Paulw

magicbastarder wrote:

just don't buy canon. simple.

Why? Is it different for Nikon or Olympus??

I think not.

leinsterman

To be fair to Nikon their pricing across the globe is a bit more harmonised ... though I have not personal experience of this ... so I'd interested in hearing from Nikonians on this ...

Canon, on the other hand, are all over the place ... we can only deal with this vendor by vendor ... and Canon know that once a person invests a certain amount in their kit then a big barrier appears stopping you from switching vendors (with the possible exception of lenses) ...

... bear in mind, at a guess, I'd estimate that we need at least 2000 - 4000 people to write letters to really get their notice ... so while it is enough to write a letter ... you also need to consider how you can contribute by making sure at least 1 or 2 other persons do also ... and they will have the same responsibility ...

... and if we fail ... well then we no longer need to feel guilty about buying from the likes Albert (if we ever did) ... we know they are treating us with contempt ... and we just get on with it and stop cribbing ... or come up with another approach ...

... which could include writing to the next person up the chain and attachming a copy of the letter the provoked no aciton ...

leinsterman

... I'd be more than happy to request a meeting with Jonothan Sulton for a group of us toe express our concerns ... but who would attend ?

Paulw

I'd certainly attend.

prox

Fajitas! wrote:

And at the end of the day, buying new equipment is a nessicary evil of photography.

No it isn't. It's gear fetishism and it's as old as photography itself.

[if I can only get whiter writing paper and purer salts my calotypes will GLOW!]

311

If canon lenses were faulty ,then they would have to lower their prices:D

I think my newest canon lens is faulty ,it's terrible that they're so expensive:rolleyes:

bp_me

leinsterman wrote:

To be fair to Nikon their pricing across the globe is a bit more harmonised ... though I have not personal experience of this ... so I'd interested in hearing from Nikonians on this ...

Bought a D80 with 18-135 from pixmania earlier in the year. The shop I had bought my last camera from in Midelton would have been paying wholesale what I paid for the camera retail. And I got a 2 year warranty by buying from France. Argos were very close to the pixmania price, but the extra warranty swayed for it for me.

Someone else commented earlier about Nikon service when buying from web. Send it to the UK service centre and there isnt the slightest issue (except that they wont answer the phone or reply to emails).

Paulw

When it comes to prices I vote with my feet.

I've been in to a few stores, priced items, and when I get the price, I comment on how much cheaper it is to buy overseas. I've yet to have any offer to even reduce the price, never mind match what I can get online.

In the last year, I've spent about 3k on Canon lenses. None of these were bought in Ireland. If I was to buy this kit in Ireland (or even UK) then the cost would be at least 5k.

If you just look at the members here on boards, who use/buy Canon, then I'm sure we spend a large amount each year. Mostly, this money is going to the US or HK, unfortunately. This is just because of price.

The items are the same.

Canon prices from shop to shop in Dublin vary so much, but in the same way, the prices online can save you 30% or more. That's just crazy.

Fajitas!

prox wrote:

No it isn't. It's gear fetishism and it's as old as photography itself.

[if I can only get whiter writing paper and purer salts my calotypes will GLOW!]

It is if you want to progress.

prox

Assuming you can't progress until you buy the next five hundred dollar lens will hold you back more than the absence of the lens ever could.

leinsterman

well ... it is true that the gear does not make the photographer but ... have a look at the quality of the images on the current cricket c&c ... and tell me that you can achieve this kind of result with a standard cheapo lens ...

Fajitas!

Tbh, tell me you can achieve macro without a macro lens, extension tubes, or close up filters. (By macro, going be the definition of 1:1)

There are quite a few specialist areas in photography, as I'm well sure you know, and I can argue this with you no problem, but that's for a different thread.

The gear dosn't make the photographer, but if a photographer has a need for the gear, it makes perfect sense to purchase.

mikeanywhere

leinsterman wrote:

... I'd be more than happy to request a meeting with Jonothan Sulton for a group of us toe express our concerns ... but who would attend ?

Me!!

However, would he actually be interested in hearing what we have to say because as much as we can rant and rave, if he isnt going to do anything about it then theres no point??
(Based with the info you provided in the past which had little effect)