Reloading Survey

DJKH

Reloading present and future

Folks a frequent question arises with respect to reloading:

What are the potential numbers of people who would reload if all the barriers were removed.

I would like to get an idea of how many people currently reload, mindful of the fact that even under current legislation it is not unlawful to reload ammunition as long as you have a firearms certificate for the ammunition being reloaded.

1) If you do not currently reload, would you do so given the opportunity
2) Do you currently reload

Answers to these questions would be much appreciated, if you presently reload and do not wish to make it known please answer that you would reload given the opportunity.

Thank you.

If the stats are good it may help move the reloading issue along more quickly than the present pace.

I am unaware of how to set this up as a poll perhaps the moderators might help.

newby.204

Given the oppurtunity to get a .308, i would reload but im a couple of years off that yet!!

Vegeta

would definitely reload if i could

tikkamark

I would love to reload if it was legal here but i would want a spell with someone who knew what they were at before i would fire a reloaded round in my .223 but it must be very satisfying to nail a fox or deer with something you personally made:)

Hezz700

Definately would.

johngalway

I'd reload for accuracy and consistancy for my rifle. It would however be dependent on the cost of gear and licences and most importantly the inevitable hoops I'd be made jump through in order to be let do it.

Vegeta

johngalway wrote:

I'd reload for accuracy and consistancy for my rifle. It would however be dependent on the cost of gear and licences and most importantly the inevitable hoops I'd be made jump through in order to be let do it.

From my limited research

gear is pretty cheap, get a good starters kit for 200 euro

brass is about 52 cent a go but you could use it 10 times (Lapua stuff) so really about 5.2 cent a round. Also if you have any hornady empties lying around they make good quality brass so keep that or beg for it off someone who isn't reloading. Never just throw it away anyway

Good match grade bullet is about 20 cent a round
Powder works out at (for .223) 660 (hot) loads per kg so about 20 cent a round aswell I think.
Primers are about 3 cents.

So for 50 cents hell lets say 65 cents a round (rip off Ireland and all) and you have a constant supply of decent ammo (compared to over 1 euro a round for anything decent). I am sure if you loaded the rounds a little lighter on the powder and got cheaper heads then you'd make even better savings.

If you are into your target shooting its a no brainer but I'd say purely for a hunter with American eagle or remington cheapy ammo then you'd want to do the math first

johngalway

Vegeta wrote:

purely for a hunter with American eagle or remington cheapy ammo then you'd want to do the math first

That's why I'd be getting my calculator out alright Consistantly getting under an inch at 100 with AE, best being 5/8th, usually around 3/4" soooo.......... Have a box of UMC to try out yet, no rush.

I was also thinking what part of the house would they prefer it in, alarm, monitored, etc. etc. Which would be the single biggest cost.

Vegeta

johngalway wrote:

I was also thinking what part of the house would they prefer it in, alarm, monitored, etc. etc. Which would be the single biggest cost.

They're decent groups for cheap ammo, 3 or 5 shot. What weight (length really) are those bullets John. Find it very tough to get the heavier stuff for the .223. Met Kramer (top top bloke by the way) from on here the other day and nearly wet myself when I saw he had 75grn hornady ammo

But why should there be any more security needed. Ok so a kg is about 660 rounds.

Hands up who has more than this on theie license but didn't need additional security to get the license limit increased. Brother has 500 on his license.

So I suppose the question is, what is more dangerous 500 rounds or the powder for 500 rounds?

johngalway

Three shot groups You know how it is, you get a nice three shot group then get cocky and wonder what a five shot group will be like, feck that done it enough times lol. The AE's are 50grn hollow points in the small white box 12 Euro a box.

I've gotten 75grn hornadys from Galway and in Athlone before, they didn't shoot well at all in my rifle, probably the worst round I tried infact. 50 & 55 seem to work the best for me, 50 more so. But I like cheap

More security shouldn't be needed, I'm only saying that I don't know concrete details so all these things however hypothetical could eventually be a factor. Everything adds up, hopefully it'll be sensible though.

Vegeta

johngalway wrote:

Three shot groups You know how it is, you get a nice three shot group then get cocky and wonder what a five shot group will be like, feck that done it enough times lol. The AE's are 50grn hollow points in the small white box 12 Euro a box.

I've gotten 75grn hornadys from Galway and in Athlone before, they didn't shoot well at all in my rifle, probably the worst round I tried infact. 50 & 55 seem to work the best for me, 50 more so. But I like cheap

More security shouldn't be needed, I'm only saying that I don't know concrete details so all these things however hypothetical could eventually be a factor. Everything adds up, hopefully it'll be sensible though.

Jesus, you have a tikka don't ya. The heavier bullets should(well in theory anyway but we all know how different practice is) suit it better. My best group, which is pretty poor is 5 shots of 55gr hornady into a 20 cent coin sized whole (that's edge to edge rather than center to center) at 100 yards

I have not had the chance to shoot heavier rounds as they are pretty rare round these parts. Have 40 rounds of 64grain federal stuff and I'm looking forward to shooting that

bunny shooter

I would if it were legalised

Dvs

Yes, I Would.
Dvs.

tikkamark

johngalway wrote:

Three shot groups You know how it is, you get a nice three shot group then get cocky and wonder what a five shot group will be like, feck that done it enough times lol. The AE's are 50grn hollow points in the small white box 12 Euro a box.

I've gotten 75grn hornadys from Galway and in Athlone before, they didn't shoot well at all in my rifle, probably the worst round I tried infact. 50 & 55 seem to work the best for me, 50 more so. But I like cheap

More security shouldn't be needed, I'm only saying that I don't know concrete details so all these things however hypothetical could eventually be a factor. Everything adds up, hopefully it'll be sensible though.

Them umc's are a great round john very hard hitting;) I did'nt get a chance to try any ae ammo yet in mine have 2 boxes so must see what they group like in mine there made by federal so should be decent enough.Did you ever try any balistic tip 223 rounds yet a local shop has them in hornadys but are €26 a box.

johngalway

tikkamark wrote:

Them umc's are a great round john very hard hitting;) I did'nt get a chance to try any ae ammo yet in mine have 2 boxes so must see what they group like in mine there made by federal so should be decent enough.Did you ever try any balistic tip 223 rounds yet a local shop has them in hornadys but are €26 a box.

The 55 grainers? If so I've tried them. Most of the ammo I've tried has been prior to adopting a new cleaning regime (in other words I rarely do a dn never use wire brush) and it's proved remarkable!

Sparks

Not much point for smallbore shooters of any kind, and for those shooting 300m, it's damn difficult to exceed the performance of factory loads from lapua, at least according to those in the know. There's also the conditions attached to the reloading licence to consider, and what sort of facilities you'll require.
All that said, reloading is something that needs to be brought in, especially for higher calibre pistol and rifle users.

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Not much point for smallbore shooters of any kind, and for those shooting 300m, it's damn difficult to exceed the performance of factory loads from lapua, at least according to those in the know. There's also the conditions attached to the reloading licence to consider, and what sort of facilities you'll require.
All that said, reloading is something that needs to be brought in, especially for higher calibre pistol and rifle users.

Maybe the lapua stuff is accurate enough but how much does it cost for a round of it?

Anyway as I said earlier why should their be any extra security needed for reloading. The equipment itself is inert and about as dangerous as a heavy saucepan. All you need is a decent well lit bench in a ventilated room in terms of facilities.

Obviously the powder and primers are dangerous in the wrong hands, no more dangerous than the live ammo we all have at home though. If someone up to no good stole 500 rounds he could easily remove the bullets and colect the powder.

So the only thing needed for reloading should be a safe for the powder and primers. Am I being naive here but I cant see the difference between having the powder for 500 rounds and having 500 rounds.

sidneyreilly

Vegeta wrote:

Maybe the lapua stuff is accurate enough but how much does it cost for a round of it?

Anyway as I said earlier why should their be any extra security needed for reloading. The equipment itself is inert and about as dangerous as a heavy saucepan. All you need is a decent well lit bench in a ventilated room in terms of facilities.

Obviously the powder and primers are dangerous in the wrong hands, no more dangerous than the live ammo we all have at home though. If someone up to no good stole 500 rounds he could easily remove the bullets and colect the powder.

So the only thing needed for reloading should be a safe for the powder and primers. Am I being naive here but I cant see the difference between having the powder for 500 rounds and having 500 rounds.

Recon you will find you will require seperate cabinets for the powder and primers. Dealers will have to have this in a structure constructed with side walls of reinforced concrete with a roof of weaker material. Basically a sarcophagus, this the present requirement for powder and primers as I understand it.

Sparks

Maybe the lapua stuff is accurate enough but how much does it cost for a round of it?

Lots Didn't say it was cheap, I said it was hard to make a more accurate round than a factory load. And for 300m ISSF shooting, accuracy is all that matters.

why should their be any extra security needed for reloading

There you go again with your common sense. This is law we're talking here!

Clare gunner

So the only thing needed for reloading should be a safe for the powder and primers. Am I being naive here but I cant see the difference between having the powder for 500 rounds and having 500 rounds.

:eek: :eek: A safe with powder???NO no no! If you have a fire your powder will cook off in the safe and blow the safe apart like a bomb!Anything around powder like metal cabinets or safes is out,due to the bomb like qualities or static electric buildup.Wooden crates or cabinets are the safest way in this security measure. In a fire the powder can is safe enough,moreso athan an aerosol can,as it is designed to cook off by melting thru the plastic cap.So all you get is a thrilling big cloud of smoke. If you had to store more than a can or were selling it.A really cool mag can be built out of a old steel oil tank and a angle grinder and earth work in your back garden or a carberry coal bunker.Anywhere else the fire cheif rather than the police cheif is worried about storage.Here we do it bass ackwards.:rolleyes:

Vegeta

Sparks wrote:

Lots Didn't say it was cheap, I said it was hard to make a more accurate round than a factory load. And for 300m ISSF shooting, accuracy is all that matters.

With a little bit of experimentation they could get just as if not more accurate rounds and be saving money. And you would be getting 100% consistent ammo as you are loading it yourself so you don't have to worry about buying in bulk and lot numbers.

There you go again with your common sense. This is law we're talking here!

Forgot about that but you're dead right

Vegeta

Clare gunner wrote:

:eek: :eek: A safe with powder???NO no no! If you have a fire your powder will cook off in the safe and blow the safe apart like a bomb!Anything around powder like metal cabinets or safes is out,due to the bomb like qualities or static electric buildup.Wooden crates or cabinets are the safest way in this security measure. In a fire the powder can is safe enough,moreso athan an aerosol can,as it is designed to cook off by melting thru the plastic cap.So all you get is a thrilling big cloud of smoke. If you had to store more than a can or were selling it.A really cool mag can be built out of a old steel oil tank and a angle grinder and earth work in your back garden or a carberry coal bunker.Anywhere else the fire cheif rather than the police cheif is worried about storage.Here we do it bass ackwards.:rolleyes:

Apologies, I agree with you.

Just wondering about metal safes though. If they were to cause an explosion they would need to be failry air tight to allow for the pressure to build up. Otherwise the gas from the powder would just escape through all the gaps and burn harmlesssly.

If it is pretty airtight then no naked flame would touch the powder. What internal temperature would the safe have to reach for the powder to ignite?

civdef

If they were to cause an explosion they would need to be failry air tight to allow for the pressure to build up.

The barrel of a rifle is open at one end, pressure still builds up nicely during firing. Dynamic pressures are a bit strange.

The autoignition temperature of smokeless powder is listed around 150 - 200 degrees C. Things get a lot hotter than that in a typical room fire.

Vegeta

civdef wrote:

The barrel of a rifle is open at one end, pressure still builds up nicely during firing. Dynamic pressures are a bit strange.

The autoignition temperature of smokeless powder is listed around 150 - 200 degrees C. Things get a lot hotter than that in a typical room fire.

Your second point I accept, I'd love to do a practical experiment or see this on mythbusters or something

The barrel being open is not true it is blocked by the bullet and the casing, in fact guns became more powerful when the bullet was designed to fit the barrel better

johngalway

Veg, do a search on PW see if the lads keep their powder confined in metal :eek: Especially old military ammo boxes, it's a no no from what I've seen they are liable to blowing up in a fire. Don't know the ins and outs but seems to be accepted knowledge.

CJhaughey

I have just looked up Corbins excellent bullet making site, swage.com.
I would like to start making some bullets out of spent .22lr cases, of which I have plenty.
They also sell a swage that turns .22WMR into 105gr jackets for the .243.
Thats a really interesting site if you are interested in making your own bullets and not just reloading.

Keelan

Would not be botherd.
Going threw all that hassel of red tape, tick guards ect ect ect and with it being cheaper with the .223 to get fcatory ammo, why consider it??

Keelan.

Vegeta

what are you guys paying for the ae stuff? Are there ever shortages of that brand of ammo.

sidneyreilly

Vegeta wrote:

The barrel being open is not true it is blocked by the bullet and the casing, in fact guns became more powerful when the bullet was designed to fit the barrel better

Veg, ever seen the damage a blank does close to the muzzle with no bullet "blocking " it?

Vegeta

No but i'd say its nothing compared to the damage when someone tries to fire a gun with a clogged barrel. We've all seen the pics.

Besides I've accepted that a metal safe is not a suitable place to store powder but then again i now think any enclosed space is dangerous to store powder

Clare gunner

Not evey enclosed space is dangerous Veg.It is a question of the right materials and the laws of physics.
Vol of gas produced Vs the enclosed space + strength of the enclosing container where the gas is produced.
Metal is out anyway due to the chance of static or loose powder hitting off a hinge ,rim of door etc and sparking off.Wood is your only option.

johngalway

12 Euro a box in Athlone and Galway for hollow point, somehting like 9 something for FMJ, and don't feckin go buying them all (HP) I need to get some next week

Vegeta

Clare gunner wrote:

Not evey enclosed space is dangerous Veg.It is a question of the right materials and the laws of physics.
Vol of gas produced Vs the enclosed space + strength of the enclosing container where the gas is produced.
Metal is out anyway due to the chance of static or loose powder hitting off a hinge ,rim of door etc and sparking off.Wood is your only option.

well when i say enclosed space and powder I am talking of a kg or 2 of powder in a medium sized safe (Like the volume of the one I got from you say)

12 euro for 20 is cutting it tight alright. You could probably make more accurate ammo for that price but whats the point if you can save all the labour

Keelan

johngalway wrote:

and don't feckin go buying them all (HP) I need to get some next week

Oooooooooopss:o

Clare gunner

Vegeta wrote:

well when i say enclosed space and powder I am talking of a kg or 2 of powder in a medium sized safe (Like the volume of the one I got from you say)

Not being a total egghead,I cant say what the xact formula would be to calculate this.But I would ASSume that by figuring out how many reloaded rounds toy would get from your 2Kg of powder[shotgun,rifle,pistol powder] and the brisance of each[IE how fast it burns,pistol powder being the fastest,shotgun the slowest].You could calculate this in rounds going to cook off.

Put it like this,If it was 2kg pipe bomb in that safe.Iwould want to be far away when it blew up!The containers are designed to if super heated to melt their plastic lids and burn off the powderin a relatively safe manner.[IE assuming they are stored in their shipping boxes in an upright manner.They should either vent upwards ,expand or rupture.They are not compressed powder so the explosive force isnt contained[Well somwhat].So unless the can fell over when it ignited,you might have a chance of being hit by a flying powder can as the power gas is coming out like a rocket venturi thru the hole.
It is the gas volume that is the problem.It has to go somwhere.2 kg If it is burning off in say a normal room,you will have a hell of alot of smoke.Maybe anaerosol type bang,but then I reckon you will have a total conflaguration in that room .In the gunsafe I sold you[4gun]. I would run away very quickly..:eek:

PeteotheNorth

Up here in the North/Northern Ireland the police specify that you keep your powder and primers in your gun cabinet/safe. As Clare gunner suggests this is totally crazy because it makes your gun cabinet into a pipe bomb type device in the event of a fire. Could kill your family and the firemen as well. I think I saw somewhere that some of the powder manufacturers recommend and actually specify designs for home storage safes that are made of heavy timber and can split at the seams before pressure builds up in the event of ignition. What the storage requirments here illustrate is that the cops here have not got a clue!
Anyway reloading is almost as much fun as shooting.

Clare gunner

QED.
Germany,the powder must be stored in its original containers in a wooden box [shipping box will do]in your strongroom.

foxshooter243

remember that modern powder is a propellant not an explosive

Mac Tire

i would love to reload if it were allowed here...i have a .22 hornet and a .308, which would make reloading perfect for me...and i plan to get a .223 so it would be fun to play with it too.

cavan shooter

Folks
the safest place to store any deflagrating agent is in the open where if it does catch fire it is not confined and will burn off rapidly (hence wooden box in Germany)

For the record Black powder is far worse than modern smokeless powder and it is very nasty stuff. I worked with it a number of times for Dimensional stone blasts when in the UK and was never happy having a tonne of it in 25kg bags in a magazine, lined with ply or not.

As part of my a previous job I watched a small safe (Ammo safe) with 1lb of black powder in it blow or should I sayrapidly deflagrate as part of an experiment in a mock up of a room built complete with furnature etc , the safe was approx 2ft square and it blew the room a part very nasty.

We spoke at length about what would happen if it was smokeless powder/propellants of the type used by reloaders.... it wouldn't be as bad but decided we shouldnt be in the room.

If reloading does come and I hope so, I would be very careful on how much I have and how it is stored.

DJKH

Quote:
Originally Posted by johngalway
There were such high hopes, now I hear nothing about it? I'm sure most of us hunters and target shooters would be eager to know if it's coming in or staying out in the cold with all the other civilised world benefits (such as readily available broadband).

Can anyone shed any light?

Viva la Banana Republic.

You will be aware that the Firearms Amendments contained in the Criminal Justice Act of 2006 allows for the certification of an individual to handload however as per the PQ response in April the section is not yet commenced.

"As the Deputy may be aware, the Criminal Justice Act 2006 was signed into law by the President on the 16th July 2006. All sections of that Act relating to firearms have been commenced other than the following sections :


- 28 (Firearms training certificate)
- 30 (Application for, and form and effect of firearm certificates)
- 32 (Conditions of grant of firearms certificate)
- 33 (Authorisation of rifle or pistol clubs or shooting ranges)
- 38 (Registered Firearms Dealers), and
- 40 (Reloading of ammunition)."

We (FLAG) met with the Department of Justice on this matter in April 2007 and significant correspondnce was generated, issues relating to liability and competency seemed to be the biggest stumbling blocks.

Correspndence has continued on the matter and we did get a commitment that there would be a pilot launch of reloading to see if there would be any significant issues arising.

One point of caution to anyone presently importing components who feel that they are covered der their certificate for components should take note of a paragraph contained in correspondence received on the matter from Justice:

"Furthermore, whereas, Section 26 of the CJA 2006 provides a definition for ammunition which includes ‘any ingredient or component part of any such ammunition’ Section 56 of the CJA (which has been commenced and which, in effect, allows for the exemption of firearm certificate holders from the importation requirements of ammunition or firearms) specifically states that component parts of ammunition does not come under the latter. My understanding of this is that, in effect, it means that component parts of ammunition are still subject to importation requirements."

While significant progress was being made towards a pilot reloading scheme, the events of October have overtaken us and with the formation of the Firearms Consultative Panel, FLAG no longer meets with the DOJ.

I would direct further questions on progress to Mr Declan Cahill of the SSAI who currently sits on on the FCP representing the SSAI. Questions with respect to the current situaton can be directed to the SSAI through the following link.

http://shootingsportsireland.com/_wsn/page5.html

There will also be an opportunity to receive an update on progress at the AGM of the SSAI which will be held in Abbeyleix on 17th Januay.

Happy New Year
Safe Shooting
Declan Keogh
Chairman
Firearms Consulative Advisory Group.
Attached Files SSAI AGM Agenda 17 Jan 2008.doc (201.5 KB, 35 views)

Clash

DJKH wrote: »

Declan Keogh
Chairman
Firearms Consulative Advisory Group.

Whats the Firearms Consultative Advisory Group?

DJKH

Typo

Firearms Legislation Advisory Group

Pity you did not have any comment about the content!

Ned Muldhoon

Has the current FCP dropped the ball on this one or is any progress being made on this issue?
Another query I would have for the FCP (I know this is going on a bit of a tangent), With the restricted firearms list due to be published, do we have any indication of what will be restricted (calibre, action etc). With pistols licenses being issued at the moment, will the holders of these certs be required to surrender their firearms and re-apply? Is there any chance we will even have .22 pistols off the restricted list?

DJKH

Ned Muldhoon wrote: »

Has the current FCP dropped the ball on this one or is any progress being made on this issue?
Another query I would have for the FCP (I know this is going on a bit of a tangent), With the restricted firearms list due to be published, do we have any indication of what will be restricted (calibre, action etc). With pistols licenses being issued at the moment, will the holders of these certs be required to surrender their firearms and re-apply? Is there any chance we will even have .22 pistols off the restricted list?

These queries would be best answered by the SSAI Representative at the Firearms Consultative Panel Meetings, Declan Cahill.

From a historic point of view (pre October 2007, the month of the long knives!) it would be fair to expect that all pistols, rifles in excess of 7mm, all semi auto high powers and for good measure .223 (from a traditional point of view) it is possible as described above that .22 semi auto rifles with a mag capacity >6 would be on the restricted list also.

When we were provided with a draft copy of the restricted list in October 2006 we made significant recommendations but it is impossible to know what progress was really made.

The query with respect to firearms renewals has gotten a little more complex, it appears from the letter to the dealers that the three year licences have been "parked" this means that July to August 2008 renewals as has been before, however when the segment of the new legislation is enacted that brings forward the three year certificate all firearms will need to be applied for as if it were a new application, this is as it is in Northern Ireland, so it will not be a renewal it will be a re application. This will facilitate the licensing authority be it the local Superintendent or the commissioner in the case of restricted firearms to enquire into the reason for having any or all firearms. If appropriate justification is not provided then they may not issue the certificate, additionally we will all be liable to conditions being attached to our certificates, while these conditions should be agreed prior to implementation there is no knowing how difficult they might be. In NI when the police were able to attach conditions to certificates initially they were untenable however through excellent negotiation by the NI shooting groups the conditions attaching are now more paractical and reasonable.

However things are not as bad as they seem, all things being in place Firearms Licensing Guidelines should be agreed and published all before this happens and indeed the Guidelines should be agreed and published prior to the bringing into force of the restricted firearms listings, this is what was agreed in the course of our negotiations with Justice.

Check with Mr Cahill for a current status report.

clivej

johngalway wrote: »

The 55 grainers? If so I've tried them. Most of the ammo I've tried has been prior to adopting a new cleaning regime (in other words I rarely do a dn never use wire brush) and it's proved remarkable!

John I'm a bit new to this so whats your new cleaning regime and can you explaine..... "in other words I rarely do a dn never use wire brush" the dn bit and why no wire brush?